Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

True Brujah

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
    I'd rather a simpler explanation: the True Brujah have it backwards (what a surprise, since they're time travelers). Celerity is not a degeneration of Temporis. Temporis is an expansion of Celerity. A Discipline that takes the basic time manipulation powers of Celerity and takes it further beyond.

    This would first explain why a whole bunch of Clans have Celerity, but only a small bloodline has Temporis. Celerity came first - probably invented by one of the Second Generation, or even by Caine himself - and then the True Brujah founder started pushing at the limits of what it could do.

    It would also imply that the True Brujah aren't, well, the True Brujah, but rather are just another deviation off the main Clan. Its members having built up the idea of themselves as the inheritors of the Clan's "true legacy", to make themselves feel more important. (Ironic for a bloodline known for their difficulty in feeling anything at all).
    While I'm on board with all of this, it is mildly interesting to note that by Clan affinity, Celerity's one of the least common 'common' Disciplines across the 13, with only (most of) the Assamites, (most of) the Brujah, and the Toreador having it naturally. (Dominate is the only one to have ever been rarer, and only in the nights before the Cappadocians and Salubri fell).

    Celerity still makes more sense as the original Discipline though.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Ideon View Post
      While I'm on board with all of this, it is mildly interesting to note that by Clan affinity, Celerity's one of the least common 'common' Disciplines across the 13, with only (most of) the Assamites, (most of) the Brujah, and the Toreador having it naturally. (Dominate is the only one to have ever been rarer, and only in the nights before the Cappadocians and Salubri fell).

      Celerity still makes more sense as the original Discipline though.
      Indeed, I've long thought of the Disciplines in the context of them being constructed. The various Clan or Bloodline founders discovered a nugget of new power, and proceeded to develop into a framework of ability over time. The three physical Disciplines are so simple because they are the earliest expressions of vampiric power. The most primeval "trick" the undead learned, likely a development of the innate capacity of all Cainites to pump their stats by expending blood.

      As time went on, the Disciplines became so used that their most elementary powers - those of ranks 1-5 - became "writ in the blood", so to speak. The Blood remembers, even across lines of Sire and Childe.

      I also use this to explain why some Disciplines seem to have an arbitrary assortment of powers.

      Why does Quietus - the Discipline primarily concerned with the weaponizing of blood - start with a power that nullifies sound? Because that's the first unique thing Haqim learned, and he used it so much that all his descendants learn it first.

      Why do the Followers of Set have snake powers, when Set himself wasn't particularly a serpentine god? Because, for whatever reason, those were the powers Set happened to develop. (Plus, there's been a lot of syncretism and adopting of mortal religious beliefs, that were grafted onto the proto-Typhonic Setite cult from ancient times; "Set" or "Sutekh" is a mask for an Antedeluvian who probably differed greatly from the myth).

      It's easier to accept inconsistencies within the Disciplines when one understands that they aren't immutable principles, interwoven with the nature of vampirism itself, but rather constructed powers developed by individual vampires or groups thereof, in order to solve particular problems. Themes are less important than the uses to which the Discipline creators bent their vampiric power towards.


      Comment


      • #48
        Though I do wonder (from a storytelling perspective) why each clan has exactly three disciplines and why so many clans don't have more. It's nice from a balance perspective, but balance and White Wolf is like strawberry jam on a cheese pizza. It just doesn't work. Ignoring that, however, I still get from a meta POV why each clan has three, but not from in-universe.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by The Dreamweaver View Post
          Though I do wonder (from a storytelling perspective) why each clan has exactly three disciplines and why so many clans don't have more. It's nice from a balance perspective, but balance and White Wolf is like strawberry jam on a cheese pizza. It just doesn't work. Ignoring that, however, I still get from a meta POV why each clan has three, but not from in-universe.
          I mean, in V20, they don't all have exactly three disciplines. Look at the Tremere.

          Comment


          • #50
            Ignoring the sorceries, some clans/bloodlines seem to deviate on the number - Gargoyles get 4 including flight, Two Revenant lines have only 2 disciplines.

            I think, from an in game reason, it's they same as asking why is gravity; it's a part of the rules that make the world and that is the best answer you'll get.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
              Why do the Followers of Set have snake powers, when Set himself wasn't particularly a serpentine god?
              Associations with/spite towards his old enemy Apep?

              Comment


              • #52
                The Antedeluvian commonly called Set is probably much older than the Eqyptian religion. He may well have been a folklore animal originally. He may well have been simply "Snake" for a long, long, looong time before he was "Set".

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
                  The Antedeluvian commonly called Set is probably much older than the Eqyptian religion. He may well have been a folklore animal originally. He may well have been simply "Snake" for a long, long, looong time before he was "Set".
                  Hence why, regardless of what culture they pretend to slot into, the Followers of Set are at their core a Conan-style snake cult. Which is why I referred to "proto-Typhonism". The Typhonic, Set, or other imagery and practices are appropriations of mortal religions and symbolism, used to obfuscate the primeval serpent-faith that "Set" built up around himself. Although at that point, we can just call it a personality cult, that grew out of control.


                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                    Hence why, regardless of what culture they pretend to slot into, the Followers of Set are at their core a Conan-style snake cult. Which is why I referred to "proto-Typhonism". The Typhonic, Set, or other imagery and practices are appropriations of mortal religions and symbolism, used to obfuscate the primeval serpent-faith that "Set" built up around himself. Although at that point, we can just call it a personality cult, that grew out of control.
                    I'm not sure if "Sutekh/Set" was snake themed originally.
                    The Tlacique have Protean that has changed to Jaguars for the local spirituality (Though, under Protean) and there is an argument to be made that Serpentis could have started as Protean that was personalised. Some say Tlacique were the original Clan with Serpent - Setites as the (Very dam big) bloodline.
                    (Then Again, they could just be the most visible Drowned-Legacy)

                    It's really hard to specify details on the origins and backstory of Antediluvians when everything is kept purposefully vague.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Illithid View Post

                      I'm not sure if "Sutekh/Set" was snake themed originally.
                      The Tlacique have Protean that has changed to Jaguars for the local spirituality (Though, under Protean) and there is an argument to be made that Serpentis could have started as Protean that was personalised. Some say Tlacique were the original Clan with Serpent - Setites as the (Very dam big) bloodline.
                      (Then Again, they could just be the most visible Drowned-Legacy)

                      It's really hard to specify details on the origins and backstory of Antediluvians when everything is kept purposefully vague.
                      My personal headcanon is that the Tlacique were embraced by full Setites, but the ones embraced were native Sorcerers, who were proficient in Shapeshifting. And they managed to learn Protean because of their prior skill with that mortal Sorcery Path. (See also World of Darkness: Sorcerer, and its entire section on how powers from one splat could transfer to another).


                      Comment


                      • #56
                        In caveman days, "Set" was probably tied in to all of this stuff: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snakes_in_mythology

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          It's worth noting that with the release of V5 the metaplot has somewhat settled this issue: the Setites traditionally used snake symbolism, but it's not inherent to their blood, and they no longer have a discipline that's "Protean Except Specifically For Snakes And Nothing Else".

                          As for why they used snake symbolism, in-universe, it's presumably because for the past one and a half millennia the easiest metaphor for their target audience to understand was the snake in the garden of Eden. Before that, the easiest metaphor may have been Sutekh, and their shapeshifting would then have been tied to the [hieroglyph E21 which I can't type on here—the "Set animal"]. Or, over in pre-colonial Mesoamerica, they used the metaphor of Tezcatlipoca, and shapeshifted into jaguars. They're all about twisting mortal religions and beliefs to their own ends, after all.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            In Beckett's Jyhad Diary they also flat out retcon it.

                            Beckett: Wait, why are you guys so snake obsessed? Set was an ass. I mean that literally.

                            Anatole: It's only Christian themed Setites who use snakes as their animal. Talk to some Setites pre-Christianity and they roll their eyes.

                            Mind you, Apophis the Actual Devil of EgyptTM is a huge serpent.

                            So, I assume any Setites who are using Serpent imagery are exalting Apophis and not Set.


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              I think it's possible Celerity developed from Temporis, but not as a degenerated form, per se. More like an adaptation to conditions on the ground, and a compromise with end-users.

                              It's like how GUI interface shell programs make computer operating systems more accessible for the general public, with the sacrifice of flexibility and finesse. Sure, if you're a grad student in compsci at MIT, you're in the for the long-haul and you want to dig around in to the main code and logic of a computer language, or perhaps write your own. For the average user, who just wants to cruise porn on the internet and get on with their life, ease of use is the most important factor.

                              The thing with Temporis is that it looks great in a white-room reading of the progression of the power, looked at on a page from level 1 to level 9. But, think about how long it takes to get out of those gatekeeper powers at the lowest levels. Think about how many other lines of development must be ignored to afford a high-level discipline.

                              So, let's say you're a fledgling, book-standard vampire. Your clan has Temporis, and you place one or two dots in it. What do you get? "I always know what time it is", and "Sorry to interrupt. Never mind me. Just keep doing what you were doing". If you are really dedicated and put all three dots there... sacrificing advancement elsewhere... you get: "Excuse me, would you mind slowing down a bit? Thanks, that'd be great!"

                              It's like superpowers built around the theme of "Canadian bus-drivers".

                              Oh, sure, the elders of your line can run around playing Doctor Who and all, but from the ground-level view of a fledgling? Even a strong-blooded fledgling has to begin with the first dot or three. Someday, yeah, you might invest the dozens and dozens and dozens of xp needed to get an elder power, if you're lucky enough to be of strong blood and want to learn absolutely nothing else.

                              Orrr... you can, right then, on the night you're embraced, be twice as fast as you were, or be more agile than you were. (Choose whichever best fits the situation.) With... wait for it... no activation roll. Even that slightly nifty Temporis 3 power is dependent on rolling well. Celerity? Nope, you get two actions for everyone else's one, and roll those actions as normal. That's the first dot!

                              By the third dot, an average (Dex 2) 13th gen vampire will be on the edge of having a Dexterity dice-pool higher than their generational limit, or get four actions per turn. Meanwhile, had they taken Temporis, they'd be slowing down a single target, with a not insignificant chance of failing to do so when it really matters.

                              Plus, for vampires with ghouls, which is more useful to those ghouls, knowing the exact time or being twice as fast?

                              I think Temporis rocks for elite elders, but for the common vampire in the street... Celerity is a much better choice.

                              It's the more egalitarian choice, anyway.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                It's entirely possible that the debate of whether Temporis is a evolution of Celerity or Celerity is a degraded form of Temporis are an immaterial discussion. Its very likely that vampires of their power level just develop their powers on parallel lines because they all derive from the same source.

                                Dementation is similar but not identical to Dominate after all.


                                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X