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  • #61
    Originally posted by Draconis View Post
    It's worth noting that with the release of V5 the metaplot has somewhat settled this issue: the Setites traditionally used snake symbolism, but it's not inherent to their blood, and they no longer have a discipline that's "Protean Except Specifically For Snakes And Nothing Else".

    As for why they used snake symbolism, in-universe, it's presumably because for the past one and a half millennia the easiest metaphor for their target audience to understand was the snake in the garden of Eden. Before that, the easiest metaphor may have been Sutekh, and their shapeshifting would then have been tied to the [hieroglyph E21 which I can't type on here—the "Set animal"]. Or, over in pre-colonial Mesoamerica, they used the metaphor of Tezcatlipoca, and shapeshifted into jaguars. They're all about twisting mortal religions and beliefs to their own ends, after all.
    As CT mentions, which I Quote below, the word is "Retcon" not "settles the issue" there is 25 years, multiple clan books and novels, fluff and crunch that came before that disagrees.
    And, unfortunately, a lot of the differences of Pre V5 and V5 aren't explained but make do not work unless you take V5 as a cut off point, start fresh, and don't look closely at what came before.

    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    In Beckett's Jyhad Diary they also flat out retcon it.
    Beckett: Wait, why are you guys so snake obsessed? Set was an ass. I mean that literally.
    Anatole: It's only Christian themed Setites who use snakes as their animal. Talk to some Setites pre-Christianity and they roll their eyes.
    Mind you, Apophis the Actual Devil of EgyptTM is a huge serpent.
    So, I assume any Setites who are using Serpent imagery are exalting Apophis and not Set.
    The destruction of Aeons/Gods and temptation fits in to Apophis and Lucifer-as-a-serpent, but lots of things attributed to "Set" don't actually fit him (Set in Marvel Comics, in Conan, etc)
    But we have things that are (presented as) facts in books that Set himself is a snake obsessed Antidiluvian
    Even in V20, the level 9 Power (For only Set and a handful of Childer) is to turn in to a giant Shadow Snake resembling Apep.

    Now, we play with houserules/headcannon that Set and Setites don't suddenly sprout around Egypt but I think the books present a different story.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Illithid View Post
      As CT mentions, which I Quote below, the word is "Retcon" not "settles the issue" there is 25 years, multiple clan books and novels, fluff and crunch that came before that disagrees.
      And, unfortunately, a lot of the differences of Pre V5 and V5 aren't explained but make do not work unless you take V5 as a cut off point, start fresh, and don't look closely at what came before.
      I mean, retcons are how they've dealt with the many, many problems of the Ravnos, Banu Haqim, and others in the past. Out of character, it's pretty clear that the original devs knew more about Conan the Barbarian than they did about world mythologies. Doesn't mean we have to keep that as an immutable fact of the in-character universe, now that we have both canonical V5 and canonical pre-V5 material (BJD) saying the opposite.

      It's also canonical in Revised, so pre-V20, that not all Setites are obsessed with snakes. The Tlacique and their jaguar symbolism are in the Revised clanbook. At some point, ignoring the retcons means ignoring everything since first edition. And I at least think a lot of the post-1e changes were for the better.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Draconis View Post
        It's also canonical in Revised, so pre-V20, that not all Setites are obsessed with snakes. The Tlacique and their jaguar symbolism are in the Revised clanbook. At some point, ignoring the retcons means ignoring everything since first edition. And I at least think a lot of the post-1e changes were for the better.
        There are certainly a lot of changes, I wouldn't call it all retcons, a lot of changes felt like we were getting more of the story eg the ... let's call it "Classic depiction of the Ravnos" was shown to be only a part of their story but I don't feel like it required overwriting what had happened before.
        And there's a (mechanically and Fluggwise) difference between a small bloodline with a different focus and the whole clan can do it but no one in the last 2000 years realised it..

        Yet again, for Headcannon and the main game, we're running with it as discussed, but I think it's beyond what's explicit or implied in the texts.

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        • #64
          The more I learn about V5’s new canon, the more the idea of treating each edition as a separate alternate timeline makes sense to me. It can all be true at once, just not all in the same timeline.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Reasor View Post
            The more I learn about V5’s new canon, the more the idea of treating each edition as a separate alternate timeline makes sense to me. It can all be true at once, just not all in the same timeline.
            I know people are getting tired of my defense of V5 but I think people have forgotten how much change happened between all editions. I think the transition is a lot smoother than a lot of people think.

            It's just the primary problem of V5 is the fact they don't have an actual history or timeline to explain how things went. All the information is spread across the supplements.

            If I ever did a Storyteller's Vault supplement, it'd be called TRANSITIONS and assemble the information into a coherent timeline and history.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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            • #66
              I believe there’d be a market for some kind of grand unified history of the World of Darkness, however many volumes it takes. I really do.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                It's just the primary problem of V5 is the fact they don't have an actual history or timeline to explain how things went. All the information is spread across the supplements.
                Whether it's due to there being a too-massive change, too many changes that would have seemed reasonable if released over the years, or possibly lower level change; It doesn't matter if it's not communicated well.

                And, personally, I think that there are too many mechanical changes (like Morality/touchstones, blood potency/generation etc) To feel like the same game - the Fluff they've introduced isn't my problem.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Illithid View Post

                  Whether it's due to there being a too-massive change, too many changes that would have seemed reasonable if released over the years, or possibly lower level change; It doesn't matter if it's not communicated well.

                  And, personally, I think that there are too many mechanical changes (like Morality/touchstones, blood potency/generation etc) To feel like the same game - the Fluff they've introduced isn't my problem.
                  Touchstones are something that makes it easier to keep Humanity and makes it less punishing to run a murder-heavy game. I feel that benefits the game.

                  Blood Potency just feels unneeded, I agree.


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                    Touchstones are something that makes it easier to keep Humanity and makes it less punishing to run a murder-heavy game. I feel that benefits the game.

                    Blood Potency just feels unneeded, I agree.
                    For the sake of considering V5 as a different game instead of edition; whether it's good change or not isn't the important thing - It's a change that is not reconcilable with stories that exist in the previous editions, and there's no great "Spellplague" or "Avatar Storm" to say why things have tilted on the axis.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Illithid View Post

                      For the sake of considering V5 as a different game instead of edition; whether it's good change or not isn't the important thing - It's a change that is not reconcilable with stories that exist in the previous editions, and there's no great "Spellplague" or "Avatar Storm" to say why things have tilted on the axis.
                      I think that overstates matters significantly.

                      How exactly is, "A close association with a mortal helps keep a vampire sane?" irreconicable with previous editions?

                      Especially since Talley shows vampires CAN and DON'T have Touchstones.

                      It's just PCs are given them in V5.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                        I think that overstates matters significantly.

                        How exactly is, "A close association with a mortal helps keep a vampire sane?" irreconicable with previous editions?

                        Especially since Talley shows vampires CAN and DON'T have Touchstones.

                        It's just PCs are given them in V5.
                        1a) - It may help some, many or almost all characters in the past, but it's now a Mandated aspect you have to use with your character.
                        1b) It has also changed the focus, Humanity in previous editions was an internalised code to keep control and keep the beast away (Even if that code is the published on that everyone uses). One of the most successful ways to do that was to remove temptations and get away from people. Now there is a heavy focus on external factors. You can't have a personal code without external factors and a player MUST have them (at character creation at least, or they'll likely drop humanity if/when the external factor is removed) and Removing yourself from that damages it
                        1c) - You can't realistically compare morality in one campaign to another, or the NPCs stats anymore. NPCs backstory has them betraying and leaving a lover because the lover was enticing them in to Murders. That's pretty humane, but not in a "Gothic" tenant based game, that's inhumane...
                        As soon as you drop an NPC in to a game, their worldview on what is wrong and right apparently changes to apply to the new rules?

                        2 - NPCs don't give us rules, early edition stats had some characters with 0 Humanity, but PCs couldn't play with that

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                        • #72
                          Duplic 8 Post

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                            Dementation is similar but not identical to Dominate after all.
                            I've always liked to think of it as thus:

                            Dementation sits in a space where Dominate meets Presence. If you think of Dominate versus Presence as existing on a spectrum between control and influence, control and the lack thereof, and mechanism of action (precision and blunt force), Dementation sits in the middle of the first and last but the opposite of Dominate in the second. Dementation doesn't subsume another's will, but neither does it simply manipulate a target into choosing a course of action advantageous to the vampire; Dementation is more precise than Presence, but less precise than Dominate; but, Dementation itself and its effects are not controllable by the vampire using them.

                            Likewise, Temporis actually sits in a space where Celerity meets Auspex. With the exception of level 4 and certain elder and methuselah powers, the question is quite open whether the discipline actually influences the flow of time at all, or rather a character's perception of time. Level 1 is time sense, level 2 forces a target to repeat an action imperceptive of the flow of time, level 3 speeds a target's perception of time, and level 5 slows the vampire's own perception of time. Even then, most elder/methuselah powers involve changing perception of time, as opposed to clearly and unambiguously influencing the flow of time.

                            Look at it through the lens of an Antediluvian or methuselah whose clan discipline array does not include inarguably the definitive discipline for vampires who aspire to great age or power, but does include another discipline key to long-term survival over which a great deal of philosophical controversy exists over how it works. Vampires of clans with Auspex and/or Celerity (especially Toreador) are already highly predisposed to expanding their understanding of either discipline to adapt the effects of one to other disciplines, to gain unforeseen comparative advantages. Temporis makes a whole lot more sense in the context of an entire discipline built around merging those two disciplines.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Theodrim View Post

                              I've always liked to think of it as thus:

                              Dementation sits in a space where Dominate meets Presence. If you think of Dominate versus Presence as existing on a spectrum between control and influence, control and the lack thereof, and mechanism of action (precision and blunt force), Dementation sits in the middle of the first and last but the opposite of Dominate in the second. Dementation doesn't subsume another's will, but neither does it simply manipulate a target into choosing a course of action advantageous to the vampire; Dementation is more precise than Presence, but less precise than Dominate; but, Dementation itself and its effects are not controllable by the vampire using them.

                              Likewise, Temporis actually sits in a space where Celerity meets Auspex. With the exception of level 4 and certain elder and methuselah powers, the question is quite open whether the discipline actually influences the flow of time at all, or rather a character's perception of time. Level 1 is time sense, level 2 forces a target to repeat an action imperceptive of the flow of time, level 3 speeds a target's perception of time, and level 5 slows the vampire's own perception of time. Even then, most elder/methuselah powers involve changing perception of time, as opposed to clearly and unambiguously influencing the flow of time.

                              Look at it through the lens of an Antediluvian or methuselah whose clan discipline array does not include inarguably the definitive discipline for vampires who aspire to great age or power, but does include another discipline key to long-term survival over which a great deal of philosophical controversy exists over how it works. Vampires of clans with Auspex and/or Celerity (especially Toreador) are already highly predisposed to expanding their understanding of either discipline to adapt the effects of one to other disciplines, to gain unforeseen comparative advantages. Temporis makes a whole lot more sense in the context of an entire discipline built around merging those two disciplines.

                              Must admit this makes Temporis far more useful and interesting for me than anything in the book ever did. Also tempting to just break it down in a group of Auspex + Celerity discipline combos. It even meshes well with some headcanon from my games, where the Toreador are the true direct descendants of Pre-Troile Brujah founder. Most entertaining indeed.
                              Last edited by Baaldam; 09-02-2019, 12:17 PM.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
                                Must admit this makes Temporis far more useful and interesting for me than anything in the book ever did. Also tempting to just break it down in a group of Auspex + Celerity discipline combos. It even meshes well with some headcanon from my games, where the Toreador are the true direct descendants of Pre-Troile Brujah founder. Most entertaining indeed.
                                Breaking Temporis down into a series of Combination Disciplines sounds like a promising hack. It works even better if we take out the True Brujah's Presence, and give them Auspex instead. Not only does it make the "Combo Power Temporis" more inherently workable, it's just more consistent with True Brujah mentality. How DOES a True Brujah excel at charming or scaring people, if their own feelings are muted? Auspex complements their dispassionate, intellectual mode far better. It's why the Tremere have it, after all.

                                (It also presents the possibility that the True Brujah could just as easily be a Toreador bloodline as a Brujah one, due to Discipline spread. But that's neither here nor there.)


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