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  • Grumpy RPG Reviews
    started a topic True Brujah

    True Brujah

    True Brujah

    So, I’ve been drinking….

    Anyway, I have been bouncing around ideas about the True Brujah for a week or so. I’m too busy with other projects – I have my next five writing projects lined up – to actually tackle this for a project for the Vault.

    But I’ve still been thinking about them.

    I think the problem with them is similar to the problem with the Baali. That is to say, they are conceptually not suited for player user, but they get mechanically bent (in terms of game rules) to make it possible. In getting mechanically bent, they become something like Vampire-Vulcan-Time Lords. Which doesn’t work very well.

    A solution to this is to stop permitting their (plausible) use by players. They are just an NPC type.

    They also have considerable time manipulations power. And they will help those who ask for help, in term of changing a situation.

    However, the caveat is they are all utter bastards – they are the time travel version of the Monkey’s Paw. Yes, you might deal with them, and they might honor the letter of any agreement made. But you – the PCs that is – will be utterly wrecked by any such deal. They are not Sam Beckett, leaping from life to life, to set right what once went wrong. They are the opposite of that. And they usually prefer the personal touching, utterly ruining a life as compared to toppling an empire into chaos.

    The clan flaws include being anhedonic.

    Also, their ability to use Temporis is limited in a waylike time travel in the movie Primer. None of them can travel beyond the bounds of their own unlife, not to before they became vampire and not after their own final death.

    They are connected to the Yith, but in what role and to what extent I’m not certain.



  • Mister_Dunpeal
    replied
    I think alot of the Temporis powers as they stand now do better as combo disciplines because they feel like they involve more than what Temporis was stated (in fluff) to be about. So you could have a bunch of combination disciplines that can give more extreme 'time manipulation' abilities, whilst the core discipline is more centered around various iterations of stasis and more limited/localized time manipulation relative to the vampire (extending, contracting, or focusing the 'stasis' that maintains the Vampire.)

    Alternately Temporis might work better as a thaumaturgy or necromantic path (in a sense you're trying to manipulate or twist vampiric nature in ways it wasn't intended, just like blood magic is supposed to.)

    Originally posted by Reasor View Post
    The more I learn about V5’s new canon, the more the idea of treating each edition as a separate alternate timeline makes sense to me. It can all be true at once, just not all in the same timeline.
    Or it makes sense to some unfathomable, alien, godlike mind because they can 'see' things in greater complexity than we can. As I've mentioned elsewhere that was an underpinning of the Dark Tower series and its multiverse approach I always appreciated.

    Originally posted by Illithid View Post
    Whether it's due to there being a too-massive change, too many changes that would have seemed reasonable if released over the years, or possibly lower level change; It doesn't matter if it's not communicated well.

    And, personally, I think that there are too many mechanical changes (like Morality/touchstones, blood potency/generation etc) To feel like the same game - the Fluff they've introduced isn't my problem.
    Honestly it feels like its both too massive, and not enough. It reminds me a great deal of the 'halfway-retcons' you got with Star Wars and Star Trek - they attempt to please everyone, but end up pleasing few because they either didn't go far enough or went too far depending on what was expected. Change can sometimes be beneficial if a product news new ideas to revive it, but if you change too much too quickly you can provoke a backlash from people who either don't want it or feel it isn't needed. Sometimes the risk pays off, but I do feel with WoD 'gradual' has always worked out better. V20 made lots of changes, but it was by and large gradual changes.

    Whereas to me, V5 feels like it took parts of Requiem and Mind's Eye Theater, fused them together, then tried stitching on parts of the original VtM skin to make it look like a complete product. It's not that it's *bad* to me per se, it just feels.. unpolished. Unfinished. Rough. You can see the stitches. And because its also in a half-and-half state it's not totally different like Requieum is, but it's also not 'same' enough to feel like V20.

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  • Theodrim
    replied
    Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of eliminating Temporis entirely and recreating the Trujah as a clan with Auspex, Celerity, and Potence, and it would certainly resolve the issue of Temporis being the Go-Bots to Focused Mind's Transformers. I'd honestly play the shit out of a clan/bloodline with that discipline spread, I can't think of many that would be more fun. I just don't think it's entirely necessary, and it would perhaps be more appropriate to house rule and replace levels 1 and 4 of Temporis with something perhaps more thematically consistent.

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  • Baaldam
    replied
    Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
    Breaking Temporis down into a series of Combination Disciplines sounds like a promising hack. It works even better if we take out the True Brujah's Presence, and give them Auspex instead. Not only does it make the "Combo Power Temporis" more inherently workable, it's just more consistent with True Brujah mentality. How DOES a True Brujah excel at charming or scaring people, if their own feelings are muted? Auspex complements their dispassionate, intellectual mode far better. It's why the Tremere have it, after all.

    (It also presents the possibility that the True Brujah could just as easily be a Toreador bloodline as a Brujah one, due to Discipline spread. But that's neither here nor there.)
    True, but then not a problem at all in most of my games, where i tend to throw large chunks of the canon in relation to the origins of certain clans and bloodlines through the window - like having Lasombra & Giovanni as branches/conspiratory factions of the same clan still fighting over who really diablerized their antediluvian half a millenium later.

    note: the Cappadocians did exist, but the reasons behind their fell had as much to do with their religious manias (and the Inquisition) as the Giovanni, who more exploited their time of weakness than actively hunted them (and are no blood relations at all).
    Last edited by Baaldam; 09-02-2019, 02:24 PM.

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  • Bluecho
    replied
    Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
    Must admit this makes Temporis far more useful and interesting for me than anything in the book ever did. Also tempting to just break it down in a group of Auspex + Celerity discipline combos. It even meshes well with some headcanon from my games, where the Toreador are the true direct descendants of Pre-Troile Brujah founder. Most entertaining indeed.
    Breaking Temporis down into a series of Combination Disciplines sounds like a promising hack. It works even better if we take out the True Brujah's Presence, and give them Auspex instead. Not only does it make the "Combo Power Temporis" more inherently workable, it's just more consistent with True Brujah mentality. How DOES a True Brujah excel at charming or scaring people, if their own feelings are muted? Auspex complements their dispassionate, intellectual mode far better. It's why the Tremere have it, after all.

    (It also presents the possibility that the True Brujah could just as easily be a Toreador bloodline as a Brujah one, due to Discipline spread. But that's neither here nor there.)

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  • Baaldam
    replied
    Originally posted by Theodrim View Post

    I've always liked to think of it as thus:

    Dementation sits in a space where Dominate meets Presence. If you think of Dominate versus Presence as existing on a spectrum between control and influence, control and the lack thereof, and mechanism of action (precision and blunt force), Dementation sits in the middle of the first and last but the opposite of Dominate in the second. Dementation doesn't subsume another's will, but neither does it simply manipulate a target into choosing a course of action advantageous to the vampire; Dementation is more precise than Presence, but less precise than Dominate; but, Dementation itself and its effects are not controllable by the vampire using them.

    Likewise, Temporis actually sits in a space where Celerity meets Auspex. With the exception of level 4 and certain elder and methuselah powers, the question is quite open whether the discipline actually influences the flow of time at all, or rather a character's perception of time. Level 1 is time sense, level 2 forces a target to repeat an action imperceptive of the flow of time, level 3 speeds a target's perception of time, and level 5 slows the vampire's own perception of time. Even then, most elder/methuselah powers involve changing perception of time, as opposed to clearly and unambiguously influencing the flow of time.

    Look at it through the lens of an Antediluvian or methuselah whose clan discipline array does not include inarguably the definitive discipline for vampires who aspire to great age or power, but does include another discipline key to long-term survival over which a great deal of philosophical controversy exists over how it works. Vampires of clans with Auspex and/or Celerity (especially Toreador) are already highly predisposed to expanding their understanding of either discipline to adapt the effects of one to other disciplines, to gain unforeseen comparative advantages. Temporis makes a whole lot more sense in the context of an entire discipline built around merging those two disciplines.

    Must admit this makes Temporis far more useful and interesting for me than anything in the book ever did. Also tempting to just break it down in a group of Auspex + Celerity discipline combos. It even meshes well with some headcanon from my games, where the Toreador are the true direct descendants of Pre-Troile Brujah founder. Most entertaining indeed.
    Last edited by Baaldam; 09-02-2019, 12:17 PM.

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  • Theodrim
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    Dementation is similar but not identical to Dominate after all.
    I've always liked to think of it as thus:

    Dementation sits in a space where Dominate meets Presence. If you think of Dominate versus Presence as existing on a spectrum between control and influence, control and the lack thereof, and mechanism of action (precision and blunt force), Dementation sits in the middle of the first and last but the opposite of Dominate in the second. Dementation doesn't subsume another's will, but neither does it simply manipulate a target into choosing a course of action advantageous to the vampire; Dementation is more precise than Presence, but less precise than Dominate; but, Dementation itself and its effects are not controllable by the vampire using them.

    Likewise, Temporis actually sits in a space where Celerity meets Auspex. With the exception of level 4 and certain elder and methuselah powers, the question is quite open whether the discipline actually influences the flow of time at all, or rather a character's perception of time. Level 1 is time sense, level 2 forces a target to repeat an action imperceptive of the flow of time, level 3 speeds a target's perception of time, and level 5 slows the vampire's own perception of time. Even then, most elder/methuselah powers involve changing perception of time, as opposed to clearly and unambiguously influencing the flow of time.

    Look at it through the lens of an Antediluvian or methuselah whose clan discipline array does not include inarguably the definitive discipline for vampires who aspire to great age or power, but does include another discipline key to long-term survival over which a great deal of philosophical controversy exists over how it works. Vampires of clans with Auspex and/or Celerity (especially Toreador) are already highly predisposed to expanding their understanding of either discipline to adapt the effects of one to other disciplines, to gain unforeseen comparative advantages. Temporis makes a whole lot more sense in the context of an entire discipline built around merging those two disciplines.

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  • Illithid
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    I think that overstates matters significantly.

    How exactly is, "A close association with a mortal helps keep a vampire sane?" irreconicable with previous editions?

    Especially since Talley shows vampires CAN and DON'T have Touchstones.

    It's just PCs are given them in V5.
    1a) - It may help some, many or almost all characters in the past, but it's now a Mandated aspect you have to use with your character.
    1b) It has also changed the focus, Humanity in previous editions was an internalised code to keep control and keep the beast away (Even if that code is the published on that everyone uses). One of the most successful ways to do that was to remove temptations and get away from people. Now there is a heavy focus on external factors. You can't have a personal code without external factors and a player MUST have them (at character creation at least, or they'll likely drop humanity if/when the external factor is removed) and Removing yourself from that damages it
    1c) - You can't realistically compare morality in one campaign to another, or the NPCs stats anymore. NPCs backstory has them betraying and leaving a lover because the lover was enticing them in to Murders. That's pretty humane, but not in a "Gothic" tenant based game, that's inhumane...
    As soon as you drop an NPC in to a game, their worldview on what is wrong and right apparently changes to apply to the new rules?

    2 - NPCs don't give us rules, early edition stats had some characters with 0 Humanity, but PCs couldn't play with that

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  • Illithid
    replied
    Duplic 8 Post

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Illithid View Post

    For the sake of considering V5 as a different game instead of edition; whether it's good change or not isn't the important thing - It's a change that is not reconcilable with stories that exist in the previous editions, and there's no great "Spellplague" or "Avatar Storm" to say why things have tilted on the axis.
    I think that overstates matters significantly.

    How exactly is, "A close association with a mortal helps keep a vampire sane?" irreconicable with previous editions?

    Especially since Talley shows vampires CAN and DON'T have Touchstones.

    It's just PCs are given them in V5.

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  • Illithid
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    Touchstones are something that makes it easier to keep Humanity and makes it less punishing to run a murder-heavy game. I feel that benefits the game.

    Blood Potency just feels unneeded, I agree.
    For the sake of considering V5 as a different game instead of edition; whether it's good change or not isn't the important thing - It's a change that is not reconcilable with stories that exist in the previous editions, and there's no great "Spellplague" or "Avatar Storm" to say why things have tilted on the axis.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Illithid View Post

    Whether it's due to there being a too-massive change, too many changes that would have seemed reasonable if released over the years, or possibly lower level change; It doesn't matter if it's not communicated well.

    And, personally, I think that there are too many mechanical changes (like Morality/touchstones, blood potency/generation etc) To feel like the same game - the Fluff they've introduced isn't my problem.
    Touchstones are something that makes it easier to keep Humanity and makes it less punishing to run a murder-heavy game. I feel that benefits the game.

    Blood Potency just feels unneeded, I agree.

    Leave a comment:


  • Illithid
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    It's just the primary problem of V5 is the fact they don't have an actual history or timeline to explain how things went. All the information is spread across the supplements.
    Whether it's due to there being a too-massive change, too many changes that would have seemed reasonable if released over the years, or possibly lower level change; It doesn't matter if it's not communicated well.

    And, personally, I think that there are too many mechanical changes (like Morality/touchstones, blood potency/generation etc) To feel like the same game - the Fluff they've introduced isn't my problem.

    Leave a comment:


  • Reasor
    replied
    I believe there’d be a market for some kind of grand unified history of the World of Darkness, however many volumes it takes. I really do.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Reasor View Post
    The more I learn about V5’s new canon, the more the idea of treating each edition as a separate alternate timeline makes sense to me. It can all be true at once, just not all in the same timeline.
    I know people are getting tired of my defense of V5 but I think people have forgotten how much change happened between all editions. I think the transition is a lot smoother than a lot of people think.

    It's just the primary problem of V5 is the fact they don't have an actual history or timeline to explain how things went. All the information is spread across the supplements.

    If I ever did a Storyteller's Vault supplement, it'd be called TRANSITIONS and assemble the information into a coherent timeline and history.

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