8th generation background for Salubri too powerful?

[lucasstriker]

Context: I'm playing modern nights and I've always loved the concept of the Salubri, although I do think they're underpowered. The chronicle is combat heavy with the Second Inquisition essentially having full government support. My character doesn't want to kill anyone and actually believes the inquisition makes sense given the millenia that vampires have hunted and manipulated humans. As she watches friends die however, I'm planning to have her slowly degenerate and struggle with the concept of humanity.

In V20 core, it says that "All Salubri must take five dots of Generation (to represent their diablerie of their sires)", but my ST thinks 5 dots of generation is too powerful as my coterie will be young 13th generation vampires. He's thinking of banning Salubri outright because of this although I've pretty much already wrote out a 3 page biography for my centuries-old Salubri where her clan is core to who she is all the way back to the dark ages.

I argued that Salubri are actually underpowered as my disciplines (Obeah, Auspex, Fortitude) don't do any damage anyway. He says he'll accept a 13th generation Salubri but lore-wise, unless I'm antitribu (I do not want to be an antitribu!), I don't believe this makes sense. That would mean a 13th-generation Salubri, embraced my character, who became a thin-blood who then diablerised her sire? Salubri are already so rare in the modern nights, and persecuted, there is no way a 13th-generation Salubri is even still alive. Can thin-bloods even diablerise? They're also extremely exclusive lore-wise. From a systems perspective as well, without being able to pump my stats in combat fast, I'll just be a literal tank/healer that does no damage. I have no social disciplines either. That doesn't sound very fun.

How do I convince my ST or get around this issue? Should I just choose another clan?

[Heavy Arms]

I mean, if you're using V20, sinking lots of dots in Generation is good for any character... the Salubri aren't exactly unique there even if they have to do it by default.

Have you considered the idea of having a Salubri AT that has fled the Sabbat and joined the Camarilla/etc.seeking out the few others outside of the Sabbat around? Being Embraced by the Antitribu doesn't mean your character stuck with them. She could even be an Obeah throwback that didn't favor Valeren.

[Quatar]

Well I'll actually agree with your ST. If the entire coterie is 13th gen (I assume they're also rather young) throwing in a century old 8th gen can turn out very disruptive and unbalancing. You don't need combat disciplines, being able to spend 3 blood a turn and buff or heal yourself is very powerful in its own right (also nothing stops you from learning those combat disciplines as OOC ones as the game progresses). Also just using a sword or shotgun will do a lot of damage just on its own.

If there's a 13th gen Salubri around, that means that line has forgone the whole "diablirizes their sire" part anyway, to get there, so being embraced by a 12th gen makes just as much sense, or probably more.
Yes thin bloods can dialerize. There's a whole other thread on that topic in the last week here so I won't go into that.
No, the Tremere won't be happy with you joining the Camarilla. Expect them to lobby for a blood hunt, discredit you or just outright try to assassinate you. You're a walking proof that they're claim "They're all evil demon worshippers and we killed every last one of them" is wrong, so they have to rectify that.

"That doesn't sound very fun" ... you pick a bloodline who's primary characteristic is basically "we're taking pacifism to the extreme" and then complain that they're boring in combat. I hate to say it, but maybe a Salubri just isn't the right pick for a combat heavy game like your ST seems to be running.

[Kammerer]

I'm on the STs side there. If their game premise is that everyone's a 13th gen fledgeling, then the fact that you "already wrote out a 3 page biography for my centuries-old Salubri" is 100% on you. Always learn the game's premise before making the character.

A few other points.

Yes, a 13th gen Salubri can survive. The Salubri genocide was a thousand years ago, no one is actively searching for you these nights.

Yes, thin-bloods can diablerise.

Yes, Salubri Healer spread doesn't have any combat disciplines. Neither do the Malkavians nor the Ventrue. While I generally suggest using DAV20 version of the Salubri and Valeren, it's still playable as is. You aren't making a competitive DnD build here - get a gun and focus on your skills.

[lucasstriker]

Thanks for all your replies. I've come to realise an 8th Gen Salubri is actually OP. The character failed the "werewolf" test miserably so I now agree my character is imbalanced at gen 8. Basically, the test is where my gaming group will run a simulation of my new char against a new werewolf (we lovingly call Bob), assuming no preparation for either party. Bob is an average werewolf. Bob starts out in "war form". I was given a sword (not silver), a gun (no silver bullets) and a full blood pool. If you beat the werewolf, you fail the test. The Salubri beat the werewolf on the first try.

Some things I realised about Salubri against a werewolf simulation:
- With 8 gen, I was healing 1 Agg damage a turn (2 BP) + 1 BP to spend as I wished. Agg damage usually requires a full day's rest and 5 BP to heal.
- Even when the Salubri is hit, she has Fortitude.
- I actually had max physical stats by turn 3-4.
- Since werewolves are melee, Obeah 4 actually allows you free pot shots until they break through. Maintaining the barrier is reflexive.
- Obeah 5 seemed pretty useless however.

Some things I realised about Salubri against a group of mortals simulation:
- Obeah 2 allows you to put mortals to sleep. This is surprisingly effective as it's often not hard to beat most mortals in a contest of wills. They can wake up, but you can just coupe de grace them in their sleep.
- Explosives and fire are not as effective against a Salubri with Obeah 3. Salubri also tend to have high humanity so frenzy checks are often passed anyway.
- This will probably degenerate you automatically. But you can put a mortal to sleep with Obeah 2, anesthesize him with Obeah 2, open him up with surgery medicine check, stuff a remote explosive into the mortal, heal said mortal using Obeah 3, and dump him in an alley somewhere. Since this is supernatural healing, no scars or any sign of surgery is left. Wait till he arrives back at HQ. Kaboom.
- Obeah 4 is generally useless as mortals often have guns.
- Obeah 5 is still useless.

It's made me wonder how the Tremere even managed to take down the Salubri. Particularly Warrior Caste Salubri with Valeren 4 and 5. So I accepted my STs logic and went with a 13th Generation Salubri. If anyone has any more creative uses of Obeah, particularly for Obeah 5, I'm all ears! I still think Obeah 5 is useless.

[Kammerer]

Your simulation is all sorts of wrong.
1. Corpore Sano can not be used on yourself.
2. What starting Salubri has Obeah 4 AND Fortitude?

Generation does not give you extra xp.

And talk to your GM about using DAV20 Valeren. It's just better.

[Quatar]

I didn't find anywhere that Obeah couldn't be used on the Salubri themself

[Cifer]

If anyone has any more creative uses of Obeah, particularly for Obeah 5, I'm all ears! I still think Obeah 5 is useless.

Um, curing a derangement with a single and relatively easy roll within 10 minutes? Simply by talking to someone? Considering most vampires can't exactly go see a therapist, this is an absolutely amazing power that lets you rewrite NPC concepts on the fly. The only problem is that many STs will create mentally ill vampires as Malkavians rather than considering that any clan can develop such problems.

[Haquim]

Context: I'm playing modern nights and I've always loved the concept of the Salubri, although I do think they're underpowered. The chronicle is combat heavy with the Second Inquisition essentially having full government support. My character doesn't want to kill anyone and actually believes the inquisition makes sense given the millenia that vampires have hunted and manipulated humans. As she watches friends die however, I'm planning to have her slowly degenerate and struggle with the concept of humanity.

In V20 core, it says that "All Salubri must take five dots of Generation (to represent their diablerie of their sires)", but my ST thinks 5 dots of generation is too powerful as my coterie will be young 13th generation vampires. He's thinking of banning Salubri outright because of this although I've pretty much already wrote out a 3 page biography for my centuries-old Salubri where her clan is core to who she is all the way back to the dark ages.

I argued that Salubri are actually underpowered as my disciplines (Obeah, Auspex, Fortitude) don't do any damage anyway. He says he'll accept a 13th generation Salubri but lore-wise, unless I'm antitribu (I do not want to be an antitribu!), I don't believe this makes sense. That would mean a 13th-generation Salubri, embraced my character, who became a thin-blood who then diablerised her sire? Salubri are already so rare in the modern nights, and persecuted, there is no way a 13th-generation Salubri is even still alive. Can thin-bloods even diablerise? They're also extremely exclusive lore-wise. From a systems perspective as well, without being able to pump my stats in combat fast, I'll just be a literal tank/healer that does no damage. I have no social disciplines either. That doesn't sound very fun.

How do I convince my ST or get around this issue? Should I just choose another clan?

If your ST decided the game is meant to be played by 13th generation PCs and you want to be part of said game you should build a 13th generation PC, period.

P-S.

When I'm the ST, the generation background is always "free" but I choose the generation everyone starts at, I find this method helps ballancing the coterie quite well.

[lucasstriker]

Your simulation is all sorts of wrong.
1. Corpore Sano can not be used on yourself.
2. What starting Salubri has Obeah 4 AND Fortitude?

Generation does not give you extra xp.

And talk to your GM about using DAV20 Valeren. It's just better.

We gradually increase the dots just to see how the powers would work in simulation. It's so we can decide if we like the progression of the clan discipline combat wise.

Could you point me where it says in v20 core you can't use Corpore Sano on yourself? There is nothing that says you can't use it on yourself. Whereas with Obeah 5 it says "This power may not be used by the Salubri to cure her own derangements."

Um, curing a derangement with a single and relatively easy roll within 10 minutes? Simply by talking to someone? Considering most vampires can't exactly go see a therapist, this is an absolutely amazing power that lets you rewrite NPC concepts on the fly. The only problem is that many STs will create mentally ill vampires as Malkavians rather than considering that any clan can develop such problems.

Yes, but you can't cure your own derangement. As you say, STs generally don't give NPCs terrible derangements that need to be cured. It works on Malkavians for a scene, and depending on if Malkavians can still access the madness network... a sane Malkavian with access to the madness network would be incredibly powerful...

But no, it has zero use.

I also can't find an easy use for Ending the Watch. The subject has to want to die for you to suck her soul. And it can't be supernaturally forced, so you can't even use dominate. I guess you could find suicidal teenagers to use it on, but what would be the point.

[Kammerer]

Could you point me where it says in v20 core you can't use Corpore Sano on yourself?

Lore of the Bloodlines p.81
But even if we assume that you can use it on yourself - so what? Healing 1 Aggravated per turn doesn't mean much in a fight. It means you are wasting time not killing the opponent, whose damage almost certainly overwhelms your healing. Where as being able to restore quickly after the fight is a decent power that doesn't break the game.

I also can't find an easy use for Ending the Watch. The subject has to want to die for you to suck her soul. And it can't be supernaturally forced, so you can't even use dominate. I guess you could find suicidal teenagers to use it on, but what would be the point.

Ending the Watch is great. First of all, only immortals need to be willing - you can use it on dying mortals as much as you want. As such, you do necromantic information gathering by stabbing goons and pumping them for information. You can do this with vampires too, but you'll need to torture them, which is an all aroundnasty business.

[Nosimplehiway]

How do I convince my ST or get around this issue? Should I just choose another clan?

1: Don't.
2: Yes.

My advice: take this character you created, and set it aside for later use. If nothing else, experimental character building is great for learning the system.

Then sit down with your ST, and design a character who will fit into the game that will actually be played at that table. They have already met you half-way in allowing a Salubri at all. If that doesn't work for you, either ST your own game with whatever power level you want, or find another game.

I'll speak plainly. How would you feel if the ST allowed the other players to all create 8th gen, centuries old vampires, but told you you had to play a 13th gen fledgling? That's the position the other players were put in.

[PazuzuAxelf]

The real problem with this character isn't generation or clan or even their disciplines, it's the age of the character and the XP you seem to have compared to others. You'd have the exact same issue with this "werewolf test" with any centuries old vampire regardless of their clan.

Modern Salubri are supposed to be like any other starting character, except their 5 dots in background have already been allocated. You should create a character at the same age range as all the other players.

[HardestadtTheEvenYounger]

My advice is this: in this situation, the Lore is nowhere near as important as making a character that both you and your ST are happy with. Do you really want to be THAT guy who made the ST rework the whole chronicle because he just had to play his centuries old PC?

You should meet your ST in the middle and play a 13th generation Salubri. There could be any number of reasons as to why a Salubri line managed to survive into the Modern Nights without being part of the al-Amin.

[Cifer]

Ending the Watch is great. First of all, only immortals need to be willing - you can use it on dying mortals as much as you want. As such, you do necromantic information gathering by stabbing goons and pumping them for information.

Any rumours that the power automatically makes the vampire capable of speaking bad Italian are completely unfounded.