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[V5]Thoughts on Vienna

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  • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    Well the issue is that their goals are:

    Camarilla: To survive
    Technocracy: To destroy all supernaturals

    They can work together but the thing is that the Technocracy feels the same way about vampires that Lupines do. They consider vampires everything wrong with the world and proof positive what they're doing is right.

    And maybe, with vampires, they're right.
    You clearly don't know enough about the Technocracy. Their goal isn't to destroy supernaturals. Their goal is to guide humanity towards their vision of enlightenment. This takes place by reinforcing (controlling) sleepers beliefs in the Consensus. Their biggest threats are things that openly challenge the status quo, not things that reinforce it like vamps tend to do. Sure eventually Vamps need to go, but after the things that threaten the Consensus in more direct ways. The fact that vamps hide themselves and police that policy means that the Technocracy doesn't have to spend it's own resources to cover for them.

    Also T20 view seems to be DO NOT kill Vamps as the blowback tends not to be worth the resources involved. (page 7 manuscript preview 2)

    Also if it were that Easy to take down vampire strong holds with mortals why didn't the Order of Hermes use that tactic? The are not bound by the masquerade. And thanks to Tremere rituals, there is no such thing as walking into the chantry during the day.

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    • Originally posted by Gubenyochi View Post

      You clearly don't know enough about the Technocracy. Their goal isn't to destroy supernaturals. Their goal is to guide humanity towards their vision of enlightenment. This takes place by reinforcing (controlling) sleepers beliefs in the Consensus. Their biggest threats are things that openly challenge the status quo, not things that reinforce it like vamps tend to do. Sure eventually Vamps need to go, but after the things that threaten the Consensus in more direct ways. The fact that vamps hide themselves and police that policy means that the Technocracy doesn't have to spend it's own resources to cover for them.

      Also T20 view seems to be DO NOT kill Vamps as the blowback tends not to be worth the resources involved. (page 7 manuscript preview 2)

      Also if it were that Easy to take down vampire strong holds with mortals why didn't the Order of Hermes use that tactic? The are not bound by the masquerade. And thanks to Tremere rituals, there is no such thing as walking into the chantry during the day.
      *cough* Pogrom *cough*

      The T20 also doesn't count because that book is explictly how the Technocracy has changed virtually every single operating procedure for the 21st century.

      And the Order of Hermes DID take out a bunch of them. There was a huge massive war....that occupied one book.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
        And the Order of Hermes DID take out a bunch of them. There was a huge massive war....that occupied one book.
        Here is a theory; the Order of Hermies was involved in the fall of the Vienna Chantry. Maybe the OoH learned about the Tremere headquarters during the Massasa War and once the saved the information. So they leak it to some hunters, and arrange for the collapse of some of the protective wards at the chantry.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

          Here is a theory; the Order of Hermies was involved in the fall of the Vienna Chantry. Maybe the OoH learned about the Tremere headquarters during the Massasa War and once the saved the information. So they leak it to some hunters, and arrange for the collapse of some of the protective wards at the chantry.
          A perfectly valid theory.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

            *cough* Pogrom *cough*

            The T20 also doesn't count because that book is explictly how the Technocracy has changed virtually every single operating procedure for the 21st century.

            And the Order of Hermes DID take out a bunch of them. There was a huge massive war....that occupied one book.
            And those other books that people quoted don't count either because it's against your take? Got it.


            Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews
            "Here is a theory; the Order of Hermes was involved in the fall of the Vienna Chantry."
            That would be worth exploring, but still goes against the normal mundane humans did it.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Gubenyochi View Post

              And those other books that people quoted don't count either because it's against your take? Got it.
              Are you okay? Because you're ignoring the thing called the Pogrom that is explicitly, "Kill every supernatural in the World" that is in every book about the Technocracy.

              Yes, the Technocracy wants to bring about Mass Ascension.

              Which they will do by killing every supernatural in the world. It's in the Precepts of Damien.

              https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Precepts_of_Damian


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

                Here is a theory; the Order of Hermies was involved in the fall of the Vienna Chantry. Maybe the OoH learned about the Tremere headquarters during the Massasa War and once the saved the information. So they leak it to some hunters, and arrange for the collapse of some of the protective wards at the chantry.

                Or the Order of Hermes just outright decided to work with the Technocracy to take out their most annoying thorn. They do it to take out Nephandi, why not vamps.

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                • Originally posted by Damian May View Post


                  Or the Order of Hermes just outright decided to work with the Technocracy to take out their most annoying thorn. They do it to take out Nephandi, why not vamps.
                  Could be totally believable. I mean Blood Treachery even states that the Order believe, that Tremere would lead the Camerilla.
                  This would fit to, that the SI believed in Vienna to have killed the Global Headquarter of the vampires. So yeah mayby it whas a Colab for this.
                  Last edited by Koronus; 08-11-2020, 05:26 AM.


                  As I am from Austria I need to clarify two things.
                  First my native language is german and so please point out if the english I write is broken so I can improve.
                  Second I do not own VTMV nor any line after M20 because it is not out there and I wait for the translation.

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                  • Originally posted by Damian May View Post


                    Or the Order of Hermes just outright decided to work with the Technocracy to take out their most annoying thorn. They do it to take out Nephandi, why not vamps.
                    Tremere are Hermetics,
                    the OoH asking the techies for help against other hermetics is like admitting the techies are right to hunt down hermetics,

                    not saying they wouldn't do it, but that would definitely hurt the OoH's image


                    -

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

                      Tremere are Hermetics,
                      the OoH asking the techies for help against other hermetics is like admitting the techies are right to hunt down hermetics,

                      not saying they wouldn't do it, but that would definitely hurt the OoH's image

                      The Tremere are traitors who are dead abominations. OoH do not think of them as anything but ash that hasn't laid down yet.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Damian May View Post


                        The Tremere are traitors who are dead abominations. OoH do not think of them as anything but ash that hasn't laid down yet.
                        of course they wouldn't think of them otherwise, it's hard enough to swallow that one of their own would fall so low,
                        but they're still hermetic abominations, which is why the OoH is so hung up on eliminating them,

                        ideally, they'd want to clean up after their own mess, so as not to be made into a laughing stock,
                        the OoH still has its pride, you don't lower yourself to begging your worst enemy to clean up your mess for you without losing face
                        Last edited by Pleiades; 08-11-2020, 06:57 AM.


                        -

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

                          Tremere are Hermetics,
                          the OoH asking the techies for help against other hermetics is like admitting the techies are right to hunt down hermetics,

                          not saying they wouldn't do it, but that would definitely hurt the OoH's image
                          Which is why they'd do it behind the scenes.


                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                            *cough* Pogrom *cough*

                            The T20 also doesn't count because that book is explictly how the Technocracy has changed virtually every single operating procedure for the 21st century.

                            And the Order of Hermes DID take out a bunch of them. There was a huge massive war....that occupied one book.

                            It entirely DOES count, because it's the latest, most up to date Book about the Technocracy and had to be approved by Paradox/White Wolf to fit within their metaplot to even get approval for being written. You can't just discount the lastest, most up to date actual sourcebook on the fucking group, just because it doesn't fit nicely with your own theories.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                              And how exactly do these secret goverment agencies find out about other secret goverment agencies? If they're not that secret, how come the vampires didn't find them then? You don't think the vampires have got eyes here watching for that kind of stuff?

                              Look, I know you really like this idea, but it's not a good one. Take a step back and really look at things:
                              A Small group of goverment agents interested in vampires can stay secret, but can't do any damage.
                              A collection of government agents large enough to do international damage, and interested in doing so, cannot stay secret, and thus cannot do serious damage before it's too late.

                              There are two exceptions
                              1- The masquerade is completely blown off all of these agents decide it's time to leak as much information as possible to the guys with the willingness and tools to do something before the vampires can muster an effective counter. of course militaries and law enforcement will probably need a few days to actually work out what to do, giving vampires the vital time to prepare whilst the military/LE await the inevitable 'do nothing' order by politicians, if not a "control the population" order but... I'm sure that information will get to some people who do wanna kill vampires real bad.

                              2- The SI is really just an elder conspiracy against the young.

                              As the first option hasn't happened, the only reasonable option is number 2.

                              Dude, the U.S. government had vampire detecting equipment as far back as Revised Edition in the late 90s. They reffered to vampires as "Black Bodies" because that's how they showed up on their scanning equipment. In real life, the CIA is capable of hacking into and taking control of the built in cameras and microphones on your Xbox and smart TV's. Mass Surveliance is the order of the day with the U.S. government and we all kind of just ignore it..

                              Masquerade has frequently stated that Vampires do not control every aspect of the Government, they're not near the top...Because that would be way to much of a potential Masquerade breach if anything went wrong.. and also to keep Human society having it's own agency rather than everything being the result of "Vampire Masterminds" behind the scenes.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Orphan81 View Post
                                It entirely DOES count, because it's the latest, most up to date Book about the Technocracy and had to be approved by Paradox/White Wolf to fit within their metaplot to even get approval for being written. You can't just discount the lastest, most up to date actual sourcebook on the fucking group, just because it doesn't fit nicely with your own theories.
                                It doesn't retcon the past of the Technocrcay, though, nor are we referring to the present version of the Union only.


                                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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