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[V5]Thoughts on Vienna

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  • shkspr1048
    started a topic [V5]Thoughts on Vienna

    [V5]Thoughts on Vienna

    So the Second Inquisition basically nuked the Tremere Vienna Chantry. A group of mortals (yes, a small army with advanced technology, but still...) took down a heavily fortified location housing some of the most learned and mystically potent members of an already learned and mystically potent Clan.

    ...anyone remember Alec Baldwin's "The Shadow" from '94? That scene where the villain's powers are neutralized and everyone suddenly sees/remembers the giant hotel he was using as a base? Would anyone be shocked if a similar scene played out in Vienna two or three supplements from now?

  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    I'm pretty sure that Vienna placing near or in the top ten for all the years of the current liveability methodologies means the Tremere weren't doing much bleeding dry. Every year after the fall of the Chantry them getting #1 (even though a terror attack should have knocked them down for a year or two) is much more suspicious.

    Leave a comment:


  • Grumpy RPG Reviews
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    ..the SI is rigging the survey to cover up the attack on the Tremere Chantry.
    Pft. As if. The Tremere were bleeding the city dry, they were sucking the life blood out of Vienna. The quality of life has gone up a lot when the city is no longer home to life-eating monsters.

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Looks at how much of an improvement that actually was

    I'm pretty sure we mean this ranking is only possible because the SI is rigging the survey to cover up the attack on the Tremere Chantry.

    Leave a comment:


  • Draconis
    replied
    Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
    Vienna remains the world’s most liveable city



    And this ranking is only possible because of the fall of the main Tremere chantry.
    The SI is doing good work! Look how much of an improvement this is!

    Leave a comment:


  • Grumpy RPG Reviews
    replied
    Vienna remains the world’s most liveable city

    Originally posted by the Economist
    On the EIU’s index, which ranks 140 cities on 30 factors bunched into five categories—stability, health care, culture and environment, education and infrastructure—Vienna scores a near-perfect 99.1 out of 100, putting it just ahead of Melbourne.
    And this ranking is only possible because of the fall of the main Tremere chantry.

    Leave a comment:


  • GilbyTheFat
    replied
    Time for some tin-foil!

    The Tremere have been going on around a thousand years and they're still the most hatred Clan in the Kindred world. With the schenanigans going on with folks directing mortal intelligence and military forces against their enemies, sooner or later someone was going to decide to just start dropping hints about every Tremere they could in the laps of the CIA or the GRU. The Tremere asked themselves "what's harder than killing us all when we're part of one Sect?" and then decided to make their play.

    They cleared out everything legit from the Prime Chantry and left only occult mock-ups and the more disposable folks, then anonymous dropped enough details to various members of other Clans who would have loved to kill off the Tremere and let them go to work running to the SI. Now they're just waiting for a few more years to pass, at which point they'll be firmly entrenched across three Sects and can then start exposing/"exposing" all the folks who you see in the Anarch and Camarilla books talking about how their Clans were behind the Prime Chantry attack. "They were talking about their Clan colluding with the SI a few years back. Go on. Ask them. Then make some calls, cause I'm sure the Inner Circle would love to hear about this."

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    If you're interested in adapting a more Requiem approach to Touchstones to VtM (whichever edition), we should probably start a new thread. While the broad strokes stuff I detailed are useful for the specific issue of V5's defining of what a Touchstone can be, there is a broader mechanical context to consider if actually porting things over.

    Leave a comment:


  • Herbert_West
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    ,long, detailed description of how Touchstones work in V:R2>
    That you, I will now use this instead of the V5 bodgejob, if I ever need to.

    Leave a comment:


  • PMárk
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

    Not.. really?

    The problem is that humans in superhero genre stories are not default-Touchstone analogs. They're cast members.

    It's pretty simple: Solo comic book heroes tend to have very large ensemble casts, and more 'normal' human characters for it (assuming the superhero is actually significantly powered). Team comic book heroes don't have all of these satellite characters. The Fantastic Four, X-Men, and so on don't have all of these characters. Why? Because the team fill out roles that satellite characters do for solo heroes. Love interests tend to be within the teams rather than outside them. Teams don't tend to have side-kicks instead of new members (aka more super-heroes). Etc.

    What's weird in superhero comics are the team-up-teams. That are things like the Justice League and the Avengers, where normally solo act heroes band together as a standing thing.

    But... the dichotomy doesn't actually change. When Superman is doing JL stuff? Lois and Jimmy rarely matter unless specifically picked to be part of the story. But then Superman goes back to Metropolis and suddenly they're super important to the story again.

    So how does a VtM game work? Like a solo act, or like a team?

    Well, V5 even more so than any edition? It's a team. The coterie is much more strongly built into the game as it's own entity (things like the Relationship Map). Campaign Tenets reinforce that this is the story of a group of main characters, not a main character and a bunch of satellite characters. I'll add your love of Bloodlines is a great example here... Bloodlines is a solo act, and unsurprisingly it's easier for Bloodlines to have more mortal NPCs that matter and are interesting.

    So no, it really shouldn't be surprising that people balk at V5 also trying to wedge humans into the forefront.



    This is really unfair. V5 is demanding that you write up a Jimmy, Lois, and Perry for all of your characters. Being annoyed that you have to go this route (at least to have Convictions) isn't a statement of one game being better or worse than another. It's a statement of the game not supporting both equally.



    I think the PG also need to address the "one Touchstone to one Conviction," issue for this to really work out. One of the reasons Touchstones work in Requiem is they're all attached equally to Humanity as a whole. Why a Touchstone matters is because they matter to your character in a meaningful way to support the broad idea of Humanity. V5 insisting that each Touchstone being linked to a specific ideal/belief/etc.gives an off-putting and ill-fitting forced narrative on them; esp since V5 doesn't let you regain Touchstones if you lose them (opposed to when you can transition from one to the other).
    Yup, exactly, especially the bolded part.

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    I think the argument is best actually used with superheroes.
    Not.. really?

    The problem is that humans in superhero genre stories are not default-Touchstone analogs. They're cast members.

    It's pretty simple: Solo comic book heroes tend to have very large ensemble casts, and more 'normal' human characters for it (assuming the superhero is actually significantly powered). Team comic book heroes don't have all of these satellite characters. The Fantastic Four, X-Men, and so on don't have all of these characters. Why? Because the team fill out roles that satellite characters do for solo heroes. Love interests tend to be within the teams rather than outside them. Teams don't tend to have side-kicks instead of new members (aka more super-heroes). Etc.

    What's weird in superhero comics are the team-up-teams. That are things like the Justice League and the Avengers, where normally solo act heroes band together as a standing thing.

    But... the dichotomy doesn't actually change. When Superman is doing JL stuff? Lois and Jimmy rarely matter unless specifically picked to be part of the story. But then Superman goes back to Metropolis and suddenly they're super important to the story again.

    So how does a VtM game work? Like a solo act, or like a team?

    Well, V5 even more so than any edition? It's a team. The coterie is much more strongly built into the game as it's own entity (things like the Relationship Map). Campaign Tenets reinforce that this is the story of a group of main characters, not a main character and a bunch of satellite characters. I'll add your love of Bloodlines is a great example here... Bloodlines is a solo act, and unsurprisingly it's easier for Bloodlines to have more mortal NPCs that matter and are interesting.

    So no, it really shouldn't be surprising that people balk at V5 also trying to wedge humans into the forefront.

    Are games with the former emphasized worse than the latter?
    This is really unfair. V5 is demanding that you write up a Jimmy, Lois, and Perry for all of your characters. Being annoyed that you have to go this route (at least to have Convictions) isn't a statement of one game being better or worse than another. It's a statement of the game not supporting both equally.

    Originally posted by Draconis View Post
    I'm hoping the Player's Guide introduces something like this: touchstones can be humans (with the benefit of bringing you out of frenzy, and the drawback of being, well, mundane humans) or anything else (with the drawback of not bringing you out of frenzy, but the benefit of not being a fragile mortal person).
    I think the PG also need to address the "one Touchstone to one Conviction," issue for this to really work out. One of the reasons Touchstones work in Requiem is they're all attached equally to Humanity as a whole. Why a Touchstone matters is because they matter to your character in a meaningful way to support the broad idea of Humanity. V5 insisting that each Touchstone being linked to a specific ideal/belief/etc.gives an off-putting and ill-fitting forced narrative on them; esp since V5 doesn't let you regain Touchstones if you lose them (opposed to when you can transition from one to the other).

    Leave a comment:


  • Draconis
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    Touchstones were lifted from Requiem 2e, without the specific reframing of things Requiem did. Requiem 2e made sure that Humanity was far more detached from morality and focused on the conflict of trying to maintain a sense of "human-ness" in the face of being an immortal undead monster. So Touchstones in Requiem are things that make you feel more human, making it easier to maintain your Humanity; but being made to feel human does require active involvement with your Touchstones. Requiem also made sure to include from the get go that while it is common for young vampires to have single individual humans as Touchstones, lots of other things can function as Touchstones and older vampires tend to have broader/enduring things like any of their mortal family (including ones to be born in the future) instead of a specific member of it.
    We're definitely off on a tangent now, but agreed, this is one thing that I think was a design mistake in V5.

    Requiem allows basically anything to be a touchstone if it makes sense thematically: one of my characters likes to go look at the gravesite his family made when he was declared missing-presumed-dead because it reminds him of what he's lost, for example, while another has poured huge amounts of time and money into revitalizing an artistic collective, and stays in touch with the institution even as individual people come and go.

    Requiem also puts a specific (though not debilitating) drawback on taking a touchstone that's not a living human: human touchstones can talk you down and bring you out of frenzy, while a building isn't going to do that. Given that the devs have hinted at non-human touchstones before, I'm hoping the Player's Guide introduces something like this: touchstones can be humans (with the benefit of bringing you out of frenzy, and the drawback of being, well, mundane humans) or anything else (with the drawback of not bringing you out of frenzy, but the benefit of not being a fragile mortal person).

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Herbert_West View Post

    I play a human, play with humans, and have conflict with humans every day of the week. Do I really have to babysit pretend humans in my game as well?

    Besides, Vampires are immortal, humans are not. While this growing apart is a theme in V1 (and getting droppen quick in later editions), it is far from being the only theme. A vampire of even 50 years of unlife should have a lot more entaglement and a lot more investment with Vampires, rather than be tied down with humans.
    I think the argument is best actually used with superheroes.

    Is Lois Lane, Jimmy Olsen, and Perry White a bad fit for Superman as a genre?

    Because Superman is an immortal demigod who hangs with Wonder Woman and Batman.

    Are games with the former emphasized worse than the latter?

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Originally posted by Herbert_West View Post
    Do I really have to babysit pretend humans in my game as well?
    Ultimately no? It's just more useful to do so than not mechanically in an attempt to refocus the narrative of the game.

    While we're pretty far off from Vienna with this tangent, it's yet another example of V5's rough execution of concepts not playing out well.

    Touchstones were lifted from Requiem 2e, without the specific reframing of things Requiem did. Requiem 2e made sure that Humanity was far more detached from morality and focused on the conflict of trying to maintain a sense of "human-ness" in the face of being an immortal undead monster. So Touchstones in Requiem are things that make you feel more human, making it easier to maintain your Humanity; but being made to feel human does require active involvement with your Touchstones. Requiem also made sure to include from the get go that while it is common for young vampires to have single individual humans as Touchstones, lots of other things can function as Touchstones and older vampires tend to have broader/enduring things like any of their mortal family (including ones to be born in the future) instead of a specific member of it.

    Doing it that way allowed a lot of flexibility. If you want lots of interesting human NPCs that will matter to the story, the Requiem approach gave you a great mechanical incentive to slot those characters into. If you don't, the game doesn't punish you for using Touchstones that are more narratively useful for a more vampire-centric game. If one of your Touchstones is your childhood church, then it can mostly come into the game as vampires jockey over Domain and such, rather than worrying about detailing out the current living congregation.

    Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
    To remind everyone that vampires are bad people.
    I think V5 core already spent too much time hammering on this point as it is. Way too much tell, and not nearly enough show.

    Leave a comment:


  • Grumpy RPG Reviews
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    I disagree.

    We need more decent human NPCs but YMMV.
    I agree and have hopes for the eventual SI book, painting those hunters as decent people. To remind everyone that vampires are bad people.

    Leave a comment:

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