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  • Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
    The fight between the Sabbat and Camarilla were never about good vs evil. Its about supernatural ideological differences and the fact that the Sabbat want to destroy the backers of the Camarilla. Not only that it was the Anarchs that literally broke away from the Sabbat not the other way around. The Anarchs are focused on pretty human-like things and emotions, while the Sabbat were always about cracking down literal progenitors of ALL Vampire society. The dichotomy of the Anarchs vs Camarilla really doesn't make sense to me. What happens to an Anarch who is really old in age and starts siring childe on its own? Doesn't she become an Elder through that herself? Not only with this you also get the Sabbat really really wrong. They haven't "given themselves" wholly to the Beast. Its like you never even read any of the Paths of the Sabbat.

    They have different curated ways of managing the Beast while not being tied down pretending to be still human. Your argument saying that they would be a good example for Anarchs of "what would happen if they'd lose their principles fighting the Camarilla" don't make sense because of that. Its as if you don't even know any of the lore regarding the Sabbat at all. Even with that mentioned, the Anarchs don't really have any principles to begin with. Their just a conglomeration of young Kindred apparently fighting against the Camarilla just 'cuz. At the end of things the Anarchs aren't really compelling at all. I don't know why WW would make them the new center faction. The Camarilla vs Sabbat paradigm was as good as you could get. Instead of removing the Sabbat they should've added new sects to spice up the Jyhad- I've always wondered why they've only stuck with only three. Like you said before though- the Anarchs were a third neutral faction to level off the two extremes of the Camarilla and the Sabbat. With this in mind though, they were never to be really taken seriously or have that much in the Jyhad other than being a mercenary faction that the other two were supposed to utilize in an opportunistic moment.
    I think part of the issue is that I see the Sabbat as a massive number of hypocrites and that their quest is ultimately a failure. The statement here is that I don't "understand" the Sabbat or the Paths. No, I understand them just fine. It's just I go with the Revised view of them. Maybe 1% of the Sabbat successfully manage to get on a Path and become a high level practicioner of it and maybe 5% of Sabbat period are on a Path in my games. 10% if they're Tzimisce or Lasombra. The vast majority do not have the spiritual, mental, and social fortitude to divest themselves of humanity to get on a Path. This is compared to the Followers of Set where almost all of them do it.

    The vast majority of the Sabbat are simply Low Humanity and indulging in every possible vice and violence they can in the belief they're achieving spiritual perfection. They drink blood like junkies take heroin, except there's an unlimited amount of heroin walking around. They're all Blood Bound and intoxicated by the Black Hands religion as well as the Vaulderie, resulting in them having almost no freedom. They're an army claiming freedom but their every moment of unlife is dictated to them by their Packs, Priests, and Rituals.

    The irony is they're 100% correct about Gehenna, the Antediluvians, and the Jyhad but they're completely under their masters control just like the Camarilla. They're just pawns killing Camarilla Elders and Anarchs to prevent either group from getting strong enough to oppose the Antediluvians' will. The Sabbat could have been the salvation of the Kindred race but they're a failure and were well before V5 for me.

    The question is whether there is a group that can save them.

    In simpler terms, "The False Hand, True Hand, Web of Knives, and Setites are the real deal. The majority of Sabbat are poseurs."

    Which I think makes them INTERESTING to play.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

      I think part of the issue is that I see the Sabbat as a massive number of hypocrites and that their quest is ultimately a failure. The statement here is that I don't "understand" the Sabbat or the Paths. No, I understand them just fine. It's just I go with the Revised view of them. Maybe 1% of the Sabbat successfully manage to get on a Path and become a high level practicioner of it and maybe 5% of Sabbat period are on a Path in my games. 10% if they're Tzimisce or Lasombra. The vast majority do not have the spiritual, mental, and social fortitude to divest themselves of humanity to get on a Path. This is compared to the Followers of Set where almost all of them do it.

      The vast majority of the Sabbat are simply Low Humanity and indulging in every possible vice and violence they can in the belief they're achieving spiritual perfection. They drink blood like junkies take heroin, except there's an unlimited amount of heroin walking around. They're all Blood Bound and intoxicated by the Black Hands religion as well as the Vaulderie, resulting in them having almost no freedom. They're an army claiming freedom but their every moment of unlife is dictated to them by their Packs, Priests, and Rituals.

      The irony is they're 100% correct about Gehenna, the Antediluvians, and the Jyhad but they're completely under their masters control just like the Camarilla. They're just pawns killing Camarilla Elders and Anarchs to prevent either group from getting strong enough to oppose the Antediluvians' will. The Sabbat could have been the salvation of the Kindred race but they're a failure and were well before V5 for me.

      The question is whether there is a group that can save them.

      In simpler terms, "The False Hand, True Hand, Web of Knives, and Setites are the real deal. The majority of Sabbat are poseurs."

      Which I think makes them INTERESTING to play.


      You liked the revised devastation of the Sabbat into mindless bogeymen, fair enough, V5 looks set to continue that pattern of making them muhahaha pointless evuuull ofr the lulz. That is never what I like about them, and was hoping for them to be made an actual playable faction again rather than cartoon villians, you quotes from the Novels showed what could be, warlords and high priests, crusaders worthy of the name, with the good and bad that come with that, that is not what Revised gave us, and not what V5 looks to be doing either, it really looks like Anarch or gtfo is the position of the devs, so gtfo it will have to be. I vastly prefered 2e, while the shovel of enlightenment was a hand wave, it made a vastly better and more interesting sect than what came after, as in fact did Humanity as it was in first and 2e, impossible for a killer to maintain, genuinely hard, and something you had to think about, all the time, like all Paths should be.
      Last edited by Taggie; 04-02-2020, 03:57 PM.

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      • Originally posted by Taggie View Post
        You liked the revised devastation of the Sabbat into mindless bogeymen, fair enough, V5 looks set to continue that pattern of making them muhahaha pointless evuuull ofr the lulz. That is never what I like about them, and was hoping for them to be made an actual playable faction again rather than cartoon villians, you quotes from the Novels showed what could be, warlords and high priests, crusaders worthy of the name, with the good and bad that come with that, that is not what Revised gave us, and not what V5 looks to be doing either, it really looks like Anarch or gtfo is the position of the devs, so gtfo it will have to be. I vastly prefered 2e, while the shovel of enlightenment was a hand wave, it made a vastly better and more interesting sect than what came after, as in fact did Humanity as it was in first and 2e, impossible for a killer to maintain, genuinely hard, and something you had to think about, all the time, like all Paths should be.
        To clarify because I think there's some questions, I actually flat out hate how V5 has treated the Sabbat. It's weird because everyone looks at me as the guy who defends V5 and it's my 2nd favorite version of V:TM but that doesn't mean I don't have criticisms of it. It's just that when so many other people hate EVERYTHING about V5 there's nothing to discuss about criticisms in a largely positive experience.

        If you're at all interested, though, here's my opinion.

        How I would have done V5 Sabbat

        The first thing I would have done would have been to have the Sabbat detailed in the main book. I would have removed some Predator types and fiction to make sure that both the Lasombra, Tzimisce, Obternation (Oblivion), and Vicissitude (Protean) were all detailed as powers. If you want to eliminate the Ravnos, fine, but the Lasombra and Tzimicse are groups that needed detailing. I would have also at least inserted rules for using the Sabbat as potential villains if not a player faction. THEN I would have made DAMN sure that the Sabbat would have gotten their own book. It would have been THE ANARCH, THE CAMARILLA, and then THE SABBAT.

        And what would I have changed?

        I love the Lasombra defection but I think that the Gehenna Crusade is kind of wasteful. Instead, I would have said that the Gehenna Crusade was a massive failure of the Sabbat and that a large number of its strategic reserve went out under Cardinal Polonia to destroy the Antediluvians, only to instead start returning as Low Generation servants of the Antediluvians. This would be like THREAT NULL from Mage Revised and they would give the Sabbat a new enemy to fight. They'd be the Satanic Belial's Brood irredeemable monster types and all of the demon worshiping types have joined them.

        I would also have the Sabbat currently broken up into feuding sub-sects and make a lot of interesting conflicts to be had here. The Loyalists to the Sabbat would defect to the Anarchs (ironic) and they would have made the Anarchs much more dangerous. The Black Hand would take over their own cities and have military dictatorships they directly controlled. The Inquisition would breakaway and become its own faction as well while a lot of Archbishops would fortify their cities while claiming to be loyal to the Sabbat yet only looking after themselves. The Sabbat would have lost cities to the Drowned, Anarchs, Second Inquisition, and Camarilla in its feuds.

        There is no Regent or there's 15 Regents, depending on who you ask.

        The theme of the Sabbat would be questioning whether the PCs can rebuild the Sword of Caine, reunite its factions, or whether it'd be better to reform it as a smaller and deadlier organization. The Sabbat Civil War would still be raging decades after it started in Beckett's Jyhad Diary and it would be the Sabbat vs. Anarchs vs. Camarilla vs. Drowned Legacies. It's a dark time for the Sabbat but may have forced them to cast aside a lot of their fat.

        How this impacts the Anarchs

        The Sabbat defectors to the Anarchs cause the Movement to change and become much more militant. All the wild, unchained, psychopathic Kindred are now of the Anarch kind. They also are the reason the Anarch become more effective at holding territory. A lot of the Sabbats games and worst qualities get absorbed by the Anarchs. It causes a big rift the Anarchs as the Sabbat way infects their nastier members while repulsing others. It's also clear the Anarchs get things DONE. The Loyalists, the former Panders Clan, and others also find the Anarchs MUCH more to their tastes than the Sabbat ever was. There will be no law under them. Each Kindred is a Prince or Archbishop to himself.

        The Ministry, of course, welcomes the Sabbat and the two get along like firehoses.

        Ironically, it does also help that many of their leaders who defect ARE better at organizing Anarchs and its possible this will just lead to a Sabbat 2.0.

        How this impacts the Camarilla

        The loss of the Sabbat allows some temporary gains for the Camarilla as they gain Mexico City, Montreal, and a bunch of other cities on the East Coast. They also immediately lose the Anarchs, the Gangrel, and the Brujah because without the Sabbat to justify their oppression--the Anarchs become the new biggest threat there is. Many Sabbat Elders, mostly Lasombra, defect to the Camarilla simply because it's the only game in town and it was never about sect vs. sect anyway. The vast wealth of the Sabbat disappears into Camarilla coffers and it grows stronger in its control over industries as well as groups that their ghoul families handled for them.

        But these Sabbat defectors are a poisonous vitae as the Camarilla starts tearing itself apart with the sudden introduction of so many schemers and murderers that are every bit as good, if not better than the Ventrue. The Tremere said not to let them in and were ignored, which means they watch from the sidelines as so many Princes fall to their new Scourges or Primogen.
        Last edited by CTPhipps; 04-02-2020, 04:46 PM.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
          One of the biggest mistakes of the game is denying the awesomeness of Noddism to non-Sabbat players. The Elysium supplement provided Elders with access to Gehenna Cults but I think Caine should be just as popular with the younger sect as people will search for answers after their Embrace. It's not just for Anarchs, though, but all Kindred as the Church of Caine was very popular among the Dark Ages players for obvious reasons.
          I agree. I would love to talk more about this, but it really deserves its own thread. I don't want to hijack this one, but I will say a few comments.

          I love Gehenna Cults and try to include them (or at least one of them) as a secret in any chronicle I run. And for those elders who are not actual members, they usually know (or think they know, or suspect) some level of ultra top level-Jyhad knowledge.

          Another element I try to include in the game is what I call "knowledge of the Antedeluvian world". This includes, but is not the same as, Sabbat style Noddist lore. "Noddism" specifically interprets "Cain" and the Antedeluvians through the lens of Abrahamic mythology. Most of its tenets is based on earlier interpretations and secondary/tertiary/etc. sources that existed during the time of the Anarch Revolt, and thus were already steeped in interpretations in cultures dominated by the Christian and Muslim worldviews. "Knowledge of the Antedeluvian world" is a more open study that includes other interpretations of the "Antedeluvian World" (as well as traditional Noddism). That includes things like using the older Sumerian mythologies, Atlantis, REH or CAS style pre-Cataclysm setting, Theosophical theories, and more. Studies into the Antedeluvian World done outside the Sabbat is much more likely to include these alternative methodologies because the study isn't regulated by a religious cult. (Of course, the Followers of Set have their own interpretation of this as well influenced by Egyptian mythology and their own Typhonist interpretations).

          And there is any number of Kindred, Clans, secret societies, and individuals in the Camarilla and Anarchs who are interested in this by a variety of motives.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Taggie View Post

            Not going to argue on Sabbat upholding a masquerade, they flat out do, then claim not to...

            On letting shovelheads roam: hell yes, drop them on a hostile or neutral city, they either win or die, either way is a bonus, maybe they even focus the SI on that city, if so bonus! Let the mortals kill main burn our supernatural.rivals for a while. As to going to war with every supernatural you encounter..yea that's actually accepting the other lines hatred of vampires into the main VtM line, the default setting of mages and changing breeds is 'killing leeches', actually acknowledging that is a nice touch, and should have been more widespread.

            I understood revised differently, and really like the monsters in love with depravity aspects of it, while the rabble on Humanity really spoiled the sect imho, if you aren't on a path, you aren't sabbat, if V5 cannot properly support Paths (and since it doesn't support Humanity I doubt it can). I'd rather they had just removed the Sabbat entirely, just flat retgone them. Then the sickening anarch pestilence would make more sense, and it would be clear only people who like Anarchs are welcome.

            The Black Hand are the exact opposite of what I like about the main Sabbat, I want hordes of shov heads lead by Templar fanatics, not vampire Isis. Give me posthuman monsters and death cultists not fanged ninjas, or vitae commando's, and above all get competent strategic thinkers to write your war plots, because as you admit, it takes beating the Sabbat and Cam with the cretinous club to explain current meta.
            Thank you for providing awesome pack names for my future Sabbat chronicle. Vitae Commando sounds nice.
            Being serious though, Black Hand IS both. They ARE posthuman monsters who perform the role of vitae commandos because no one else in the whole VtM world would. It's their burden and duty, not a privilege. They follow Paths AND they think with their heads not their fangs.

            Competent strategic thinkers in Sabbat already are among BH dominions or cardinals only. Nomads and shovelheads are shock troops, and templars are the only adequate force keeping them focused, without them, the forefront of the sect will just degrade into hundreds of splinetered death cults with extremely low unlife expectancy.

            Shoevelheads led by Templars ARE vampire ISIS. Deranged, fully indoctrinated, succumbed to the Beast. If you are concerned with Paths, than no shovelhead mob can follow the Paths. Not in any of editions. They are either low Humanity or at low Path of Night (with the latter quickly ascending to position of leaders of the former). Again, you can check Montreal 1997 book. There are no shovelheads. Literally. Even the youngest Cainites (1992 embraced, like Sister Evelyn, or 1983 like Marie-Helene Dutoit) are adherents of Paths, albeit just starting on levels 2-3, and none - NONE - of Montreal cainites were mass-embraced.

            Being in love with your own depravity was a facet of specific Paths, not all of them - paths like Feral Heart, Scorched Heart, Death and the Soul or Honorable Accord simply abstein from anything regarding depravity, seeing it as hindrance rather than a bonus of undeath. And even those which fully embraced the vice (Cathari, Lilith, Caine, Metamorphosis, and, partially, Redemption) as core, actually encouraged or rather instructed their followers into exploring and scrutinizing their personal darkness, digging much deeper than just being a douchebag of the night like the pathetic path of night wants you to be (another vile creation of revised edition).

            OK I am being too rough to Metamorphosis. They were at the forefront of Tzimisce as the clan and as the concept, and represent a very important part of the Sabbat - the one which wants to go above and beyond. Probably the most vampiric thing in VtM.

            From Clan Novel: Tzimisce.

            The gathered Sabbat warlords, however, were an even greater uncertainty. Drawn from marauding bands that ravaged the length and breadth of the American countryside, these autonomous mercenary groups gave allegiance to none and respect only to a select few—those who had earned such through trials of fire and sword.

            In less than an hour, Polonia realized, this conference room would be filled with a clamoring throng of the most ruthless tyrants, predators, fanatics, mafiosi, serial killers, highwaymen, ganglords, and anarchists that had been gathered in one place since—well, probably since the onset of the First Crusade.

            ****

            “The Nomad Coalition is here, gentlemen, because the word is out that Atlanta is spoiling for a fight, and you guys don’t have the experience, the firepower, or the balls to carry that fight without us.” A roar and a riot went up from the gathered Nomad war chiefs rose, and even Caldwell was on his feet. A man to Averros’s left brandished a fist in which danced no fewer than three wicked and vitriolic-looking butterfly knives, each blade as long as the man’s forearm.

            ****

            "This is the big time, tough guy. Whatcha gonna do? These bastards here,” he gestured to the conference table where the rest of the assembly looked on with alternating distaste, detached curiosity, and ill-concealed blood hunger. “You think these guys are gonna stand with you when they see how you pay back the folks who put you where you are now? Come off it. These guys are the real deal. Hell, these guys are the Sabbat, I mean the real Sabbat. The folks that make things happen. You’re not dealing with a bunch of low-life drifters and clansmen; fugitives and survivalists, weirdoes and cultists, anymore. You think these guys are sitting around waiting for someone to come along and tell them what to do and who to do it to?"

            I can't imagine where I got the view they were disorganized rabble.
            First of all, the text is quite on point. Emphasis is on *Nomad Coalition* - the Nomads, who were always the most unruly bunch of the sect; the ones who once waged war against the founded covens and started one of the the civil wars; the ones who comprise the most of the Loyalist faction; the Loyalists who are Anarchs in disguise. These dudes are going to join Anarchs as soon as the word spreads there are real Antediluvians out there and you have to fight them according to the Code of Milan; these dudes barely give two hecks about the Code, or Antediluvians or Paths or Caine (you mean the psycothic grocer from the Bible lol!) or whatever. Say hello not to the disorganized Sabbat "core" but to your future allies amongst Anarchs.
            You quoted a text on the most Anarch part of the sect.
            Nomads are not the core of the Sabbat.
            Second, there is nothing in the quotation which points to them being Satan worshipping mindless bodybags - yes, they are rabble, but rabble tough as nails, rabble which would not survive decades of unlife out of the city havens without wit and brain. Mostly like your Anarchs are. I see no difference between this Sabbat and the Anarchs you envision. Nomads were always a wild card, an efficient fighting force you can or cannot rely on to complete the sect's objectives, and only the tactical ones - they never gave a damn about strategic ones. Only Black Hand and Inquisition did.

            Seriously, if you want to see the core of the Sabbat, please quote Archons & Templars or MbN or Chaining the Beast books.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

              I think part of the issue is that I see the Sabbat as a massive number of hypocrites and that their quest is ultimately a failure. The statement here is that I don't "understand" the Sabbat or the Paths. No, I understand them just fine. It's just I go with the Revised view of them. Maybe 1% of the Sabbat successfully manage to get on a Path and become a high level practicioner of it and maybe 5% of Sabbat period are on a Path in my games. 10% if they're Tzimisce or Lasombra. The vast majority do not have the spiritual, mental, and social fortitude to divest themselves of humanity to get on a Path. This is compared to the Followers of Set where almost all of them do it.
              AGAIN, all books on Sabbat, especially - MbN. GttS 2 edition, Archons and Templars, Midnight Siege, Caine's Chosen - point to Sabbat being the SAME as Setites or rather tougher. Sabbat vampires were designed to be the only ones among vampires with enough social and mental fortitude to divest themselves of humanity, (for the hundred time, check Montreal by Night), with the number of the ones on that road being significantly reduced in revised/V20.

              The vast majority of the YOUNG Sabbat, IN REVISED, are simply Low Humanity
              Fixed it for you.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Val_Nir View Post
                Fixed it for you.
                The vast majority of vampires are young vampires.


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                Comment


                • It is interesting how three users arguing on the subject got their own three different versions of the same sect.

                  Actually, I think, after all of this rambling over edition differences in regards to Sabbat vision, the ultimate question at the end of the night is this: Who the players would rather like to play?
                  I am in no position of speaking for many, I would like to share my suggestions on the subject.

                  Whether they would like to play
                  - Sabbat thunder, depravity at it's core, second edition blood bath, Camarilla-Sabbat-Anarchs war, Paths at the core of the sect, military sectarian international conflict?
                  - Sabbat depravity and satanism, no deep philosophical themes, Humanity 2, Revised bloodbaths, heavy occult, methuselah-possessed, shovelhead mob, vampire locust, vampire isis, boogeymen with fangs?
                  - Sabbat secret service, indoctrination, subtlety, philosophy and psychology mixed with combat and occult, Paths as a nice addition, focus on the war with Ancients rather than sectarian conflict?

                  is up to debate.

                  With a deep sigh, I have to conclude - let's just wait for the V5 book.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                    The vast majority of vampires are young vampires.
                    You missed the vital part..in Revised aka the Justin Hates the Sabbat edition, aka the start of the rot edition, where all this edge lord bullcrap that infests V5 started,. I didn't realize how deep the infection was until this thread tb, or just how far the desire to destroy everything interesting about VtM went. Your description of what you want to do to the Sabbat sounds like a nightmare, a complete waste of their themes and stories, and simply another ploy to force the irrelevant, boring, flat disgusting Anarchs onto center stage, they aren't fun, they aren't cool, they aren't interesting, and they never have been, the game would be far better served destroying them rather than, as you demand, destroying the Sabbat. I have never had a positive experience with Anarchs, not in over two decades of various chronicles.
                    Last edited by Taggie; 04-02-2020, 07:28 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Taggie View Post

                      You missed the vital part..in Revised aka the Justin Hates the Sabbat edition, aka the start of the rot edition, where all this edge lord bullcrap that infests V5 started,. I didn't realize how deep the infection was until this thread tb, or just how far the desire to destroy everything interesting about VtM went. Your description of what you want to do to the Sabbat sounds like a nightmare, a complete waste of their themes and stories, and simply another ploy to force the irrelevant, boring, flat disgusting Anarchs onto center stage, they aren't fun, they aren't cool, they aren't interesting, and they never have been, the game would be far better served destroying them rather than, as you demand, destroying the Sabbat. I have never had a positive experience with Anarchs, not in over two decades of various chronicles.
                      So what you are saying is. The Gothic PUNK game of personal horror would be better off destroying the most human facing sect that rebels against the status quo because they are filled with PUNKS would be better off destroyed than the half-bit boogey men that take away from most of the themes of the game.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Taggie View Post

                        You missed the vital part..in Revised aka the Justin Hates the Sabbat edition, aka the start of the rot edition, where all this edge lord bullcrap that infests V5 started,. I didn't realize how deep the infection was until this thread tb, or just how far the desire to destroy everything interesting about VtM went. Your description of what you want to do to the Sabbat sounds like a nightmare, a complete waste of their themes and stories, and simply another ploy to force the irrelevant, boring, flat disgusting Anarchs onto center stage, they aren't fun, they aren't cool, they aren't interesting, and they never have been, the game would be far better served destroying them rather than, as you demand, destroying the Sabbat. I have never had a positive experience with Anarchs, not in over two decades of various chronicles.
                        Can you possibly explain your objections beyond, "Sabbat rule, Anarchs drool"? You've made clear how much you hate my favorite part of the game but I'd prefer if you could get into the detail of what bothers you.

                        Originally posted by Necroticbinder View Post
                        So what you are saying is. The Gothic PUNK game of personal horror would be better off destroying the most human facing sect that rebels against the status quo because they are filled with PUNKS would be better off destroyed than the half-bit boogey men that take away from most of the themes of the game.
                        Or what he said.


                        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Necroticbinder View Post
                          So what you are saying is. The Gothic PUNK game of personal horror would be better off destroying the most human facing sect that rebels against the status quo because they are filled with PUNKS would be better off destroyed than the half-bit boogey men that take away from most of the themes of the game.
                          I am saying that they would be best served destroying the mary-Sue friendly neighborhood vampires and playing up the horror of the two tragic factions, the two sides of the beast I be least beast I become equation. Get rid of the 'good guys', the creators pets, the frat boys with fangs, the guys who turn up to larp half cut and harass the women...every single event, most Anarchs I have ever encountered, and actually focus on horror, not fanged super heroes.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Taggie View Post

                            I am saying that they would be best served destroying the mary-Sue friendly neighborhood vampires and playing up the horror of the two tragic factions, the two sides of the beast I be least beast I become equation. Get rid of the 'good guys', the creators pets, the frat boys with fangs, the guys who turn up to larp half cut and harass the women...every single event, most Anarchs I have ever encountered, and actually focus on horror, not fanged super heroes.
                            Wow, whoever you played with really pissed you off on Anarchs.

                            Originally posted by Val_Nir View Post
                            It is interesting how three users arguing on the subject got their own three different versions of the same sect.

                            Actually, I think, after all of this rambling over edition differences in regards to Sabbat vision, the ultimate question at the end of the night is this: Who the players would rather like to play?
                            I am in no position of speaking for many, I would like to share my suggestions on the subject.

                            Whether they would like to play
                            - Sabbat thunder, depravity at it's core, second edition blood bath, Camarilla-Sabbat-Anarchs war, Paths at the core of the sect, military sectarian international conflict?
                            - Sabbat depravity and satanism, no deep philosophical themes, Humanity 2, Revised bloodbaths, heavy occult, methuselah-possessed, shovelhead mob, vampire locust, vampire isis, boogeymen with fangs?
                            - Sabbat secret service, indoctrination, subtlety, philosophy and psychology mixed with combat and occult, Paths as a nice addition, focus on the war with Ancients rather than sectarian conflict?

                            is up to debate.

                            With a deep sigh, I have to conclude - let's just wait for the V5 book.
                            I think that they're all really true angles to pursue on this and depend greatly on the needs of your story, the perspective of the vampires involved, and the individual vampires involved.

                            Vykos, Lucita, Polonia, Moncada, Andrei, and Killfuck Soulshitter are all Sabbat but are going to have different perspectives.


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                              Wow, whoever you played with really pissed you off on Anarchs.
                              Yes, but it was a coupled of dozen players over the years, most of the guys who wanted to play Anarchs turned out to be complete assholes, and I see exactly the way they played being endorsed and encouraged in the setting now. That entitled, 'we are the greatest and the point of the game and other players exist purely to Do as the Anarchs want' infusing your arguments and descriptions. To which I say, no they are a pile of toxic, entitled crap and a cancer that ruins the setting.

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                              • Originally posted by Taggie View Post
                                I am saying that they would be best served destroying the mary-Sue friendly neighborhood vampires and playing up the horror of the two tragic factions, the two sides of the beast I be least beast I become equation.
                                Your Anarchs honestly seem pretty unrecognizable to me as the Anarchs have never in the history of vampiredom been "The Good Guys." They are on the Path of Humanity but are by and large a group of murderous marauders and misfits. There's the occassional idealist and misfit like Maldavis or Anita Wainwright but the vast majority of them are ruthless gangsters as well as outlaws who are tough enough to survive against the Camarilla's retaliation.

                                Smiling Jack, Juggler, Genghis, and others are by and large a bunch of tough guy murderers and/or hypocrites. That's because you have to be the toughest bastard alive in order to live free of the Camarilla's oppressive cruelty and ruthlessness. The Anarchs are not particularly friendly to weakness and if you are weak, like the Thin Bloods, then you're usually left to die.

                                Bluntly, your interpretation of the story also is nonsensical. The Camarilla and the Sabbat have no horror. When you're a Sabbat, you have no humanity. You're damned, you're evil, and you have no salvation--you revel in the Beast. It's what you've chosen. There's no horror because your story is over. Wassail or becoming a Cthulhu cultist (following a Path) with SAN 0 is your fate.

                                The Camarilla is a bit more flexible and you can be someone who tries to keep their humanity but the Elders are a bunch of evil corrupt bastards so what's the point of playing them? There's nowhere to fall from (I'm exaggerating here as they're much better than the Sabbat in this). The Anarchs are closest to being mortals but the story they tend to be is about how much humanity they must shed to be tough enough to survive.

                                And Anarchs in their quest for FREEDOM often exceed and become worse than the Camarilla. Because they don't fear the Beast the way they should.

                                Get rid of the 'good guys', the creators pets, the frat boys with fangs, the guys who turn up to larp half cut and harass the women...every single event, most Anarchs I have ever encountered, and actually focus on horror, not fanged super heroes.
                                Serial harrassment is a major problem of LARPS period. They also know no faction.

                                Fuck those guys.
                                Last edited by CTPhipps; 04-02-2020, 07:58 PM.


                                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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