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  • #91
    Val_Nir what are Bat’ko Makhno and Durutti?


    “It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done...” Sidney Carton’s last line before going to the guillotine to save his True Love and her husband

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Penelope View Post
      Val_Nir what are Bat’ko Makhno and Durutti?

      Probably the most famous propenents of practical militant anarchism. In real world history, of course. "Bat'ko" in Ukranian means 'Dad'. It was his alias during the 1919-1921 Civil war across post-tzarist Russia and it's former colonies. His actual name was Nestor. Buenaventura Durruti was the same but in Spain in 1930s.
      That's very simplified explanation, of course. There are numerous websites dedicated to the life and ideas these people fought for.


      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Penelope View Post
        Val_Nir what are Bat’ko Makhno and Durutti?

        Probably the most famous propenents of practical militant anarchism. In real world history, of course. "Bat'ko" in Ukranian means 'Dad'. It was his alias during the 1919-1921 Civil war across post-tzarist Russia and it's former colonies. His actual name was Nestor. Buenaventura Durruti was the same but in Spain in 1930s.
        That's very simplified explanation, of course. There are numerous websites dedicated to the life and ideas these people fought for.

        sorry for the duplicate, my web is messed up.
        Last edited by Val_Nir; 04-01-2020, 12:18 PM.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Val_Nir View Post


          I agree that Camarilla-Sabbat conflict was paramount in 2ed/Revised/V20, have no problem with it, although I would it to go deeper than just decapitating Ventrue merchants (and Gehenna war actually providing such a chance but we have no clue how exactly it is going); but I see why they decided to shift back to V1 themes. Probably they want to go full circle once again, this time without the eschatological 2004 vibe. If that's the case and the sects are three again, each with it's distinctive feel and theme, doing their own things, I am totally in. If they make Sabbat V1 again, I'm out.

          The Anarch thing being as far from Bat'ko Makhno or Durutti as possible is of no surprise in modern nights. Look at their 'counterparts' in moder world. Constant infighting, bickering, competitions in ideological purity, moral committee trials in forums and threads, tribalism, and most of all, complete lack of personal integrity or collective accountability.
          The fact that finally the VtM Anarchs somehow, miraculously handled the last two issues is the main reason they skyrocketed from 'those local leather clowns' into 'seize the means of vitae production'.
          If they moved to permanent revolution mode, where are the gulags? The mass collateral damage terror campaigns? Death marches? That is how militia Anarchs have worked from the Paris commune on. Except they didn't seize the means of production, the Cam and Sabbat where so busy headbutting the stupidity stone, while wearing the idiot glasses and gargling the foolish gin, that the Anarchs won by default
          Last edited by Taggie; 04-01-2020, 12:28 PM.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by Taggie View Post

            If they moved to permanent revolution mode, where are the gulags? The mass collateral damage terror campaigns? Death marches? That is how militia Anarchs have worked from the Paris commune on. Except they didn't seize the means of production, the Cam and Sabbat where so busy headbutting the stupidity stone, while wearing the idiot glasses and gargling the foolish gin, that the Anarchs won by default
            permanent revolution did not involve the gulags 'cause the permanent one never happened, but I digress. terror campaigns and other stuff you mentioned are not what you will have in V5.Not sure if it's a bad thing, though. The V5 is yet to cover the worse of modern nights, it just started with Cults book.

            By seizing the means, I mean House Carna, I mean Theo Bell. I mean many not-Setites and most of Brujah and Gangrel going there (tbh I wonder what took these two so long?). So many of cainites of numerous clans and most probably various generations don't just hop aboard the happy rebel train, holding hands and kumbaya through the end times, Gehenna war, Beckoning and Second Inquisition. Therefore I consider Anarchs a legitimate success (with a small dose of plot armor from the authors) solely for making it through all of the mentioned ordeals.

            Stupidity stone made me laugh, thank you. It definitely puts Camarilla into their position of drooling old idiots who, should the fire hit the fan, bunker down and play 'we are highly concerned' card. They did not deserve such a downgrade, if you ask me, after being a dominant power of the vampiric world for several centuries. In that, I agree with you.
            However, Sabbat finally doing what they were designed for, is fine by me. I don't see any stupidity here. Depends on how much of the sect really moves to MENA and from what I read across the web, it's most of the sect, 70-80%. So it's only natural the quickest to fill the resulting gap in Western cities would be the most attuned to mortal world and shifting political landscape while Camarilla closes their doors and hides in their mansions.

            The only thing which really concerns me is the V5 so far being centered around Western cities and communities but I guess it's just a start. Also, one could says that in other parts of the world, Camarilla vs Sabbat competition still continues in this or that way and the places where the Anarchs are now dominiant are limited to NA/EU domains. If any book covered this topic pls point me to it.

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            • #96
              Val_Nir thanks. That answers my question.


              “It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done...” Sidney Carton’s last line before going to the guillotine to save his True Love and her husband

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Val_Nir View Post

                Well, I tried to do my best to explain why it is. I believe both to be crucial parts of the Vampire identity and covered my favorite part. I'd like to know why that part is or should be used as a cautionary tale only and justified why it should not. Talking about the game's direction and the canon not the homebrew here - I always liked the main line no matter how many things I'd changed in it; it's always interesting to see the continuation of that same plot and the living world envisioned by it's creators and professionals. I suppose you feel the same way towards VtM but looks like we are not into a discussion here.
                The funny thing is that I *LIKE* the Sabbat and think they have a very valuable role in the setting. I'm just saying they don't have shit on the Anarchs and it's nice they're finally getting the attention they deserve.

                I could go into length about what I like about the Sabbat and why I think V5 isn't fair to them but usually when I do, people start dumping on the Anarchs.

                You can like 90% of V5 without agreeing with everything. The Sabbat have an important role as the inhuman irredeemable vampires that threaten the vampire status quo. The Satanic and mysterious undead wholly given to the Beast.


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • #98
                  The Anarchs vs. Camarilla appeal

                  Honestly, people try to attribute the Camarilla and Sabbat and Anarchs to real world philosophical groups and speaking as an academic that's....dumb. The vampire is a creature that requires at least 1000 to 10,000 humans for every single one of them and they exist as a parasite among them. They exist as an elite nobility (or predator) among the masses no matter what they are and they will never have numbers larger than a mid-sized high school in any city in the world. There's never going to be more than 200 vampires in a city as large as New York City which means that existing political models are RIDICULOUS to apply to them.

                  Instead, the best model for the Anarchs vs. Camarilla are the fictional and very entertaining cyberpunk models as well as organized crime. Anarchs exist as competing organized gangs against the stiff and decaying institutions of the Camarilla mafia. In the end, both groups are after territory and cash but the Anarchs are outsiders moving in to carve their own turf as well as resources by overthrowing the existing.

                  In simple terms:

                  Cyberpunk:

                  Camarilla=Megacorporations
                  Anarchs=Crime Syndicates
                  PCs=Mercenaries

                  The big benefit of the Anarchs is the fact that the Anarchs can exist within a Camarilla city and the Camarilla can exist within a Anarch City. The Sabbat will always be their own sort of game and are antagonistic to the point of not being able to play local politics against one another since they're always in a state of direct overt war. The Anarchs and Camarilla can engage in Cold Wars, loose alliances, or outright conflict with a lot more "under the table" diplomacy as well as friendships/alliances/rivalries.

                  Which is the irony that's on display here. Everyone is talking about how the Anarchs are lesser for the fact that they're not engaged in a militarized campaign of extermination when that is SHIT for street level roleplaying games.


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                    The Anarchs vs. Camarilla appeal

                    Honestly, people try to attribute the Camarilla and Sabbat and Anarchs to real world philosophical groups and speaking as an academic that's....dumb. The vampire is a creature that requires at least 1000 to 10,000 humans for every single one of them and they exist as a parasite among them. They exist as an elite nobility (or predator) among the masses no matter what they are and they will never have numbers larger than a mid-sized high school in any city in the world. There's never going to be more than 200 vampires in a city as large as New York City which means that existing political models are RIDICULOUS to apply to them.

                    Instead, the best model for the Anarchs vs. Camarilla are the fictional and very entertaining cyberpunk models as well as organized crime. Anarchs exist as competing organized gangs against the stiff and decaying institutions of the Camarilla mafia. In the end, both groups are after territory and cash but the Anarchs are outsiders moving in to carve their own turf as well as resources by overthrowing the existing.

                    In simple terms:

                    Cyberpunk:

                    Camarilla=Megacorporations
                    Anarchs=Crime Syndicates
                    PCs=Mercenaries

                    The big benefit of the Anarchs is the fact that the Anarchs can exist within a Camarilla city and the Camarilla can exist within a Anarch City. The Sabbat will always be their own sort of game and are antagonistic to the point of not being able to play local politics against one another since they're always in a state of direct overt war. The Anarchs and Camarilla can engage in Cold Wars, loose alliances, or outright conflict with a lot more "under the table" diplomacy as well as friendships/alliances/rivalries.

                    Which is the irony that's on display here. Everyone is talking about how the Anarchs are lesser for the fact that they're not engaged in a militarized campaign of extermination when that is SHIT for street level roleplaying games.
                    And yet what you like about Anarchs is exactly what I do not like about them. Either the elders are the enemy, in which case fight them, or they aren't, so join them, come of the fence, or get splinters up the ass, seriously no Anarch group has been portrayed as smart and disciplined enough to survive a War Coterie or Crusade assault, and the plot armour that sees them never get smacked down breaks disbelief, I will buy ancient elders and inhuman monsters, please don't also ask me to buy them being monumentally incompetent as well.


                    The blend of cyberpunk and supernatural horror really does not do anything for me, and certainly hasn't been expanded on enough for me to believe it was anything but a passing fancy in 1e(and even in cyberpunk I gravitate towards the adversarial end of the runner scale) I lived through enough of the Cold War IRL to not want a weird version of it in a game, set the sides, have the war, then lead, follow, or hide, that makes fun chronicles.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                      The funny thing is that I *LIKE* the Sabbat and think they have a very valuable role in the setting. I'm just saying they don't have shit on the Anarchs and it's nice they're finally getting the attention they deserve.

                      I could go into length about what I like about the Sabbat and why I think V5 isn't fair to them but usually when I do, people start dumping on the Anarchs.
                      Looking at your next statement I think V5 is more fair to them than you.

                      You can like 90% of V5 without agreeing with everything. The Sabbat have an important role as the inhuman irredeemable vampires that threaten the vampire status quo. The Satanic and mysterious undead wholly given to the Beast.
                      Seeing you did not mention this vision as your own I assume you present it as a default image of this sect in V5 which is both incorrect so far (we know too little to state it so overtly and have to wait for their book) and totally unfair to numerous players who like the concept(s) and themes of the sect and played it through previous editions. It was so much more in the books dedicated to or mentioning it in 2ed/Revised/V20 that I don't even know where to start. Again, I am confused by the necessity to pigeonhole them into such a category after all the texts written on it and the effort put into it both by authors and by players.

                      I could go into great length why saying that some group in VtM or even WoD is irredeemable is going against the very spirit of the setting, but I thought it's obvious. I am also sure that nothing in V5 so far is pointing that such a blatant simplification is anywhere near in the coming books.

                      Comment


                      • Anarchs are a combination of criminal elements, political dissidents, and an armed civil war faction in the Camarilla. While the difference between them is real, from an objective point of view that includes the Sabbat and Independent Clans, they actually agree on 80-90% of stuff. In fact, if you look at the political flanks of both sides (the Anarch sympathizing Camarilla loyalist, and the reform minded Anarch), there is so much overlap it's hard to tell why each one is included on the side they're on.

                        The Sabbat though is ultimately anti-thetical to both of them. They're a combination of a religious apocalyptic sect, extremist totalitarian revolutionaries, and arch-reactionaries who've abandoned conservative monarchism for fascism. Their worldview is absolute and requires not just the defeat of their enemies - but their extermination. And if they ever won, they'd completely change how vampires interact with mortals (which is why in a metafictional capacity they can never be allowed to win, as if they did you wouldn't have a World of Darkness where vampires existed in secret along mortals, but a more explicitly fantasy version of the world where mortals actively warred on the undead.)

                        I don't like CTPhipp's description of their struggle in reference to Cyberpunk tropes. I think it's really stretching things. But I do agree that trying to use the lens of real world philosophical groups doesn't work.

                        What the distinction is really about - is what kind of vampires are we talking about?

                        Camarilla - any vampire fiction which shows vampires and humans cooperating to some degree; an elegant society of monsters who are concerned about the Beast or Masquerade
                        • Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles
                        • Twilight and other Paranormal Romance
                        • Forever Knight
                        • Innocent Blood
                        Anarchs - vampire fiction which shows vampires as rebellious teenagers enjoying their power/freedom; or any struggle between a vampire master and a vampire's spawn
                        • Lost Boys
                        • Near Dark
                        Sabbat - classic vampires that spread like a plague and represent metaphysical evil
                        • Hammer Horror style Satanic vampires
                        • Count Yorga films
                        • Salem's Lot
                        • From Dusk to Dawn
                        • 30 Days of Night
                        These distinctions aren't drawn with hard lines. Near Dark is often mentioned as both Anarchs and Nomad Sabbat for example. And the Camarilla and Anarch sources of inspiration can often switch back and forth. (That's because the difference is now between how they interact with mortals, but with each other). But each sect has themes that represent what kind of monster they are.

                        The Independent Clans are harder to recognize, but their original function was to serve a very specific metaplot setting or narrative purpose. And the more the game strays from that, the greater the game stops treating them as independents and pushes them to one of the sects. Depending on how you like each of those clans, and why you like them, you'll have different opinions on whether that change was good or not.

                        Comment


                        • Playing Sabbat isn't about being "irredeemable", it is about playing a creature who is not beholden to the morality system of a different species. Playing a Feral Heart character who tries to balance his path's eschewing of politics and need to protect his pack with the practical realities of unlife in a sect where a fair amount of politicking IS needed in order to actually protect one's pack. Trying to balance the tenets of Honorable Accord with the ruthless realities of actual warfare. I find these things interesting.

                          I get very weary hearing things that just kind of assume that a system of social constructs created by predatory apes to deify themselves is The One True Way, as objective as thermodynamics and gravity.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Taggie View Post
                            And yet what you like about Anarchs is exactly what I do not like about them. Either the elders are the enemy, in which case fight them, or they aren't, so join them, come of the fence, or get splinters up the ass, seriously no Anarch group has been portrayed as smart and disciplined enough to survive a War Coterie or Crusade assault, and the plot armour that
                            sees them never get smacked down breaks disbelief, I will buy ancient elders and inhuman monsters, please don't also ask me to buy them being monumentally incompetent as well.
                            This is a social game and not a war game. Also, repeatedly in every Crusade and military conflict, the Anarchs have been portrayed as the boots on the ground. Which makes sense because no one would actually fight for the Camarilla since it's a conspiracy of the super-rich to protect their wealth. They were also the first to die on the ground as well, which was detailed in the Clan Novels. They were stupid to try to protect the Camarilla against the Sabbat.

                            However, whatare you going talking about "smart" or "disciplined"? Did you ever read the Clan Novels. They beat over the head the Sabbat is a disorganized, unity-less, infighting-ridden bunch of barely controlled Beasts. Only a handful of geniuses can direct the swarm of locusts that they tend to be and then they collapse back into infighting. There is an organized, inhuman, and alien mindset group...it's called the Black Hand.

                            Or the Assamites or Web of Knives.

                            They are NOT the Sabbat.

                            The blend of cyberpunk and supernatural horror really does not do anything for me, and certainly hasn't been expanded on enough for me to believe it was anything but a passing fancy in 1e(and even in cyberpunk I gravitate towards the adversarial end of the runner scale) I lived through enough of the Cold War IRL to not want a weird version of it in a game, set the sides, have the war, then lead, follow, or hide, that makes fun chronicles.
                            For me, it's a game of intrigue. Vampires shouldn't be fighting in the streets. They should be engaging with proxies, secret attacks, and covert missions like the kind in Bloodlines.

                            Originally posted by Val_Nir View Post
                            Seeing you did not mention this vision as your own I assume you present it as a default image of this sect in V5 which is both incorrect so far (we know too little to state it so overtly and have to wait for their book) and totally unfair to numerous players who like the concept(s) and themes of the sect and played it through previous editions. It was so much more in the books dedicated to or mentioning it in 2ed/Revised/V20 that I don't even know where to start. Again, I am confused by the necessity to pigeonhole them into such a category after all the texts written on it and the effort put into it both by authors and by players.

                            I could go into great length why saying that some group in VtM or even WoD is irredeemable is going against the very spirit of the setting, but I thought it's obvious. I am also sure that nothing in V5 so far is pointing that such a blatant simplification is anywhere near in the coming books.
                            Our clearest view of the Sabbat was given in both CHICAGO BY NIGHT with the idea that the organization is in the state of a Civil War with the Lasombra fighting over defections as well as CHICAGO FOLIO which states that the Sabbat in America have collapsed. The largest group in the Midwestern United States is described as a terrorist cult existing solely to destroy the Camarilla as well as Anarchs.

                            My view of the Sabbat is they're a bunch of alien Satanic monsters, eldritch priests, and people like HOUSE OF 1000 CORPSES and THE TEXAS CHAINSAW MASSACRE. They're people who live in houses full of corpses, twisted altars to demons, and a wholesale embrace of the worst in themselves. They disdain humanity and indulge in their worst impulses to be the vampires that terrify the shit out of you. They're sort of the poor cousins to the Assamites and the Followers of Set who have much better knowledge of the Darkness. The Lasombra and Tzimicse, ironically, didn't pass laong their inner clan secrets that well to their sect brethren.

                            They were right that human morality is incompatible with the Vampire LifestyleTM but failed to tame the Beast like the Assamites, Followers of Set, or True Hand.
                            Last edited by CTPhipps; 04-01-2020, 07:25 PM.


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                              The Anarchs vs. Camarilla appeal

                              Honestly, people try to attribute the Camarilla and Sabbat and Anarchs to real world philosophical groups and speaking as an academic that's....dumb. The vampire is a creature that requires at least 1000 to 10,000 humans for every single one of them and they exist as a parasite among them. They exist as an elite nobility (or predator) among the masses no matter what they are and they will never have numbers larger than a mid-sized high school in any city in the world. There's never going to be more than 200 vampires in a city as large as New York City which means that existing political models are RIDICULOUS to apply to them.
                              What you just called dumb was going on in the VtM/VtR books and in games for decades.

                              I believe most of us know of the vampiric demographics and how it could vary from sect to sect. I am also not sure what is wrong with applying political models to vampires while one of the main Vampire themes, and I think, any other World of Darkness line, was taking a look at shadowy politics as a dark reflection of the human world one's. Both supernatural and real worlds affected each other, the latter affecting the former arguably more than vice versa.

                              Sects were international, continent-spanning organizations not just some scattered domains who pay lip service to main cause and appearing more as semi-independent conclaves barely giving a heck about the cause of common protection of Masquarade or upholding Traditions, or waging war against some blood gods or demons.

                              I get your idea about cyberpunk but that's totally not down my street even if talking solely Camarilla vs Anarchs. Boiling it down to turf wars and feeding ground rivalries is kind of GTA. What's interesting in it? If you do it as a not-so-sophisticated background for some interesting, complicated relations, I get it. The lone idea of a rivalry between an overtly criminal and a more subtly criminal supernatural organization sounds not like a Vampire game at all. Anyway, it is still something else I've never heard of or tried - blending in cyberpunk shtick is great. Just to me, it's too small of a part of the game itself and I can;t see how this is more entertaining than something more old-school.

                              Instead, the best model for the Anarchs vs. Camarilla are the fictional and very entertaining cyberpunk models as well as organized crime. Anarchs exist as competing organized gangs against the stiff and decaying institutions of the Camarilla mafia. In the end, both groups are after territory and cash but the Anarchs are outsiders moving in to carve their own turf as well as resources by overthrowing the existing.

                              In simple terms:

                              Cyberpunk:

                              Camarilla=Megacorporations
                              Anarchs=Crime Syndicates
                              PCs=Mercenaries
                              The big benefit of the Anarchs is the fact that the Anarchs can exist within a Camarilla city and the Camarilla can exist within a Anarch City. The Sabbat will always be their own sort of game and are antagonistic to the point of not being able to play local politics against one another since they're always in a state of direct overt war. The Anarchs and Camarilla can engage in Cold Wars, loose alliances, or outright conflict with a lot more "under the table" diplomacy as well as friendships/alliances/rivalries.
                              The part about the sword of caine is simply not true, but I believe that's your personal view on it.
                              Frankly, to me, the idea of such game have little in common with Vampire, or rather represents a small facet of what a Vampire chronicle is. How can a story about two groups of supernatural predators rivalring for the city boil down to 'territory and cash'? Isn't it easier - and cheaper to your supernatural immortal ass - to go with two human "Veils", speaking in KotE terms, to do it for you?

                              Which is the irony that's on display here. Everyone is talking about how the Anarchs are lesser
                              Everyone is talking about how Anarchs are lesser because 1) they were lesser before V5 and you can't erase 20 years of development which depicted them like that in one night - again, I am not one of those people and love to see Anarchs rejuvenated and redesigned in a more serious light, and playing a crime syndicate _only_ would not help that redesign, in my opinion; 2) some of those who dump on your favorite sect are probably fans of the sect you are dumping on (mostly by misinterpreting or simplifying it). That's not appropriate and I do not encourage dumping on anything

                              for the fact that they're not engaged in a militarized campaign of extermination when that is SHIT for street level roleplaying games
                              Whoa. We aren't in here to define 'the most appropriate and esteemed way to roleplay', aren't we? That sounds rude, and not just to a big chunk of street-level LARPers, Camarilla-Sabbat war had militarized campaigns of extermination only as one facet of the whole conflict. A culmination of sorts, with years, decades, sometimes centuries of schemes, shadowy treaties, occult research, shifting allegiances, undercover reconnaisance, political powerplay and even negotiations ACROSS continents preceding the 'combat campaigns'. Reminding you of whole books dedicated to conflict, we can safely assume it all was not just shit for street level roleplaying games. And most of the time extermination was not the one and only final goal - conversion and indoctrination possibly on the same level with extermination or simply driving 'the others' away. It WAS a turf war, indeed - but also much more than that.
                              Anyway, why the elitism?)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Val_Nir View Post

                                What you just called dumb was going on in the VtM/VtR books and in games for decades.
                                I think the books are pretty good about establishing that the politics of the Anarchs vs. Camarilla vs. Sabbat vs. Kuei-Jin have always been best on a local street level. It's about taking over cities and not national-level conflicts.

                                I believe most of us know of the vampiric demographics and how it could vary from sect to sect. I am also not sure what is wrong with applying political models to vampires while one of the main Vampire themes, and I think, any other World of Darkness line, was taking a look at shadowy politics as a dark reflection of the human world one's. Both supernatural and real worlds affected each other, the latter affecting the former arguably more than vice versa.
                                At the end of the day, the games have always personified the politics they deal with. It doesn't matter what you believe ideology wise because in the end the politics are not going to be bigger than the nearest vampire who embodies them. Lodin, Sebastian La Croix, Marcus Vitel, and Hardestadt are the Camarilla big wigs you deal with and they are individuals who have the authority and position to embody the Camarilla. The Princes BARELY answer to anyone higher than themselves and have a massive amount of authority to deal with problems as they see fit. I feel that makes the games more interesting because every city is customizable in a way that a larger political struggle wouldn't be.

                                The dictator of your personal revolution and revolutionary war leader are people you know personally. Be they Juggler or Modius.

                                Sects were international, continent-spanning organizations not just some scattered domains who pay lip service to main cause and appearing more as semi-independent conclaves barely giving a heck about the cause of common protection of Masquarade or upholding Traditions, or waging war against some blood gods or demons.
                                It's hilarious that I literally just wrote the exact opposite above in my interpretation of them. The Camarilla and Movement will never be as important as the local representatives of such in your area. Most vampires will never leave within 30 miles of their Embrace, sort of like feudalism.

                                I get your idea about cyberpunk but that's totally not down my street even if talking solely Camarilla vs Anarchs. Boiling it down to turf wars and feeding ground rivalries is kind of GTA. What's interesting in it? If you do it as a not-so-sophisticated background for some interesting, complicated relations, I get it. The lone idea of a rivalry between an overtly criminal and a more subtly criminal supernatural organization sounds not like a Vampire game at all. Anyway, it is still something else I've never heard of or tried - blending in cyberpunk shtick is great. Just to me, it's too small of a part of the game itself and I can;t see how this is more entertaining than something more old-school.
                                Oh yes, Grand Theft Auto is a very good inspiration for games of vampire in my view. Because you always are going to have varying degrees of assholes to deal with and questions of who can you trust [answer: no one]. The first Camarilla and Anarch leaders you ever meet in V:TM are Modius and Juggler with both of them two sides of the same coin. Ideology is something that is exploited by Elder vampires to manipulate younger ones but you have to believe in something to get through your unlife. Still, 90% of all vampire conflicts is power, prestige, and Domain. Doesn't matter which sect is doing it.

                                The part about the sword of caine is simply not true, but I believe that's your personal view on it. Frankly, to me, the idea of such game have little in common with Vampire, or rather represents a small facet of what a Vampire chronicle is. How can a story about two groups of supernatural predators rivalring for the city boil down to 'territory and cash'? Isn't it easier - and cheaper to your supernatural immortal ass - to go with two human "Veils", speaking in KotE terms, to do it for you?
                                I seem to recall that the canonical end of the Kuei-Jin and Camarilla conflict in Revised was the Camarilla paid off the Kuei-Jin to leave them alone. It was in NIGHTS OF PROPHECY. Do you remember that?

                                Summary: In "Walking after Midnight", the New Promise Mandate and Camarilla reach an aggreement where the former will receive a massive cash payment in exchange for not expanding beyond the former Anarch Free States. The Anarchs have the opportunity to disrupt the peace treaty and steal the money for themselves.

                                I love this adventure because it perfectly encapsulates what all of the sects are: crime syndicates dueling it out for territory. I always think Vampire works a lot like THE GODFATHER with fangs. You have the suit and tie mafisio as the Camarilla and the Anarchs as the street toughs on the ground with the independents being outside context problems. You can still have conflicts over humanity, persecution, trying to get out of the corrupt businesses, and trying to "make it" so you can protect yourself--you know, stuff like the Godfather, Yakuza games, and so on.

                                But at the end of the day, a large part of it is the rivalry between the sides you pick to serve. Safety in numbers vs. being a lone operator.

                                Everyone is talking about how Anarchs are lesser because 1) they were lesser before V5 and you can't erase 20 years of development which depicted them like that in one night - again, I am not one of those people and love to see Anarchs rejuvenated and redesigned in a more serious light, and playing a crime syndicate _only_ would not help that redesign, in my opinion; 2) some of those who dump on your favorite sect are probably fans of the sect you are dumping on (mostly by misinterpreting or simplifying it). That's not appropriate and I do not encourage dumping on anything
                                They were shit on in Revised but were major sects in 1st, 2nd, and V20. Also, the Anarchs were revised for the NWoD as the Carthians.
                                Last edited by CTPhipps; 04-19-2020, 11:48 AM.


                                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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