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  • Diluting Generation

    My party for the most part don't know who their sires are, but they are standard generation, so that narrows down the pool of possibles for them.

    So in order to surprise them, I was wondering if there was a way of expanding the pool by having their sires "dilute" their blood when making them or some such nonsense like that.

    For example, a Nosferatu who wants to sire a Childe under the Princes nose, and makes his blood untraceable back to him through a Tremere's blood magic, or a Ventrue who wants many minions, but none so powerful as to pose a threat to them?

  • #2
    The easiest way is to pay someone else to make the childe for them. Or Dominate instead of paying.

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    • #3
      Are you looking for a way to work this through the existing rules, or are you asking for suggestions on how to house rule this?

      Existing rules I can't think of anything off the top of my head -- but it's been YEARS since I've run anything other than my own heavily customized rules so I wouldn't be a good resource anyway.

      House ruling it is easy, and there are a LOT of ways to set this up. If you wanted a lot of variability, one way you could do it is to make an embrace cost multiple points of *permanent* willpower. Let's say a full, one-generation less childe costs 4 permanent WP to make. Well, if you only spend 3, you get Generation-2. Spend 2, you get Generation-3. Spend 1, Generation minus 4. Spend nothing? You get a 13th gen or a thin blood or whatever.

      I do something like that in my games. It's not quite as wide-open, though. Vampires in my games can make "true childer" who are one generation less, or they can embrace someone into my equivalent of a Generation 13/Blood Potency 1 vampire. The former requires permanent willpower, the latter requires temporary.

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      • #4
        If you are STing the game, then you are God and can do whatever you like. You want vampires to be able to will their childer to be thinner than one generation down? *POOF* They can. It's nice to be God. You can make parallel lines intersect and make 2+2+5. You can play pool with planets. Giving vampires an extra power isn't even something that would make you break a sweat.

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        • #5
          Doesn’t Thaumaturgy have an old rite that does this? Crank another vampire’s generation downward?

          ETA: Found it, but it’s a Rank 6 ritual. Quenching the Lambent Flame, from the book “Sins of the Blood.” Changes the target’s generation to the 13th.

          I could see a real control freak of a Sire wanting to do this, if the Childe is meant to be a tool who can’t become a threat to their Elder. Maybe the Sire has some dirty work that a ghoul wouldn’t be durable enough to do.
          Last edited by Reasor; 08-24-2019, 01:53 PM.

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          • #6
            Gold Monk

            A few questions about the situation:

            Is this in a V5 or a "V20&pre" environment? In V5, blood potency is more easily measurable than generation, and more variable.

            Do the pcs definitively know they are the generation they think they are? Remember, the pcs haven't seen their character sheets, and figuring out your own generation is not easy. If a sire tells their childe they are 12th gen, why would they question it?

            Has anyone directly discussed their generation, in-game? Asking someone their mechanical generation is a mildly rude question in polite vampiric society. Why would anyone need or want to know? To know if Dominate will work? To know if it is worth eating them?

            Has there been anything in-game where a different pc generation would have mattered? Did someone try to spend more blood than they could, or buy an overly high trait? Did a Tremere test the pcs? (Even so, there are activation rolls, and anyone can be wrong or lie.) I doubt any player would complain if there were a mystery presented, and the solution were "surprise, you were all 7th generation all along!"

            How big of a gap between sire and childe are we talking about? A putative 10th gen embracing a 12th gen could just be that some ancestor lied about their generation. A 5th gen embracing a 13th is more difficult to justify, because it is more measurable.

            Have the pcs met the npcs you want as their sires, and have they gotten confirmation of those npcs' generations? If nothing has happened in the game requiring "Primogen Jane Smith" to be of the 6th generation, then just making her weaker blooded would be fair game.

            Is there a chance the sire committed diablerie after embracing the childe?

            Diablerie from a more distant ancestor could also be why a generation count is wrong. When presenting at court, very few newcomers would recite their lineage with lots of footnotes about the many, many people who committed diablerie. They would just do the math and adjust the claim. eg: Imagine this lineage: Ann:Bob:Carol: Dave:Eddy:Francesca:Greg:Harald:Ismira;Jack:Karoto s:Lasombra... Given diablerie, Ann could be anywhere from 14th gen to 4th gen, and still be reciting her true lineage!

            It's a long-shot, but are the pcs Assamites or Setites? Both count their generation differently.

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            • #7
              Why not abandom generation for being an imprecise way of mesuring power based of a mythos that only serves to fuck the demographycs of the game becuase for a 13th gen to exist needs to be at least 12 more vampires? Why not use instead use Blood Potency and call power: power?

              "Pure Blood homebrew"
              Normal embraces only require 1BP + 5XP and create a blood potency 1/13th Gen children however there is a way to create more powerful vampires know by the elders.This metodology requires all blood in the system of the future child to be replaced by vitae and the expenditure of 5XP for each level in blood potency the sire wants to give to the child up to a máximum of the sire-1 or 5.

              This opens a lot of options becuase now you can have Lodin or the same Critias as a sire without breaking the game and gives the ST the ability of having 1-5 Blood Potency starter characters without that changing his list of avalible sires forcing him to add extra characters to the setting railroading the chronicle.

              It also allows mass embraces but without the risk of the horde being too huge , creates potential story hooks with the "Pure Blood" elite existing , makes age a true mesure of power and also gives a mechanic to the favored childe stuff that happens in the lore.
              Last edited by Leandro16; 08-24-2019, 10:22 PM.


              Hunger pool

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              • #8
                @Nosimplehiway

                @CajunKhan

                @Leandro16

                It's V20 and set in modern times, pretty much everyone is 13th generation, and will be playing from their first night as Kindred. They will discover their generation via some Tremere blood-testing, as well as their clans, lest they become Caitiff.

                I know that as the ST, my word is law, but I typically don't like to add things that contravene detailed mechanics unless I can help it. I just wanted to see if there was a "lore-friendly" way to do this.

                So, since they'll be 13th gen, and if I wanted one of their sires to be, say, the Nosferatu Primogen, I can't imagine a 12th gen Kindred getting that much clout.

                And even if they had committed diablerie, that decrease in generation would be reflected in their Childe, would it not?

                I'm interested in the idea of that homebrew rule Leandro posted, but as I got players that are fans of the setting, I have concerns about alienating some of them.

                No sessions have happened yet, this is all in preparation for the setting.
                Last edited by Gold Monk; 08-24-2019, 08:05 PM.

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                • #9
                  So similar to V5 and a housrule I used before it even cam out. Mix generation and Blood Potency.
                  So everyone starts with BP 1 and the maximum amount of BP they can grow to is capt by generation. (real low gens could start at higher BP, but that's not really relevant for PCs)

                  Ok the above would be an option if your characters were not sure about there gens. Obviously if you really want them to now or sure what gen they are it doesn't work. But something you can think about.

                  Originally posted by Gold Monk View Post
                  @Nosimplehiway

                  So, since they'll be 13th gen, and if I wanted one of their sires to be, say, the Nosferatu Primogen, I can't imagine a 12th gen Kindred getting that much clout.
                  As for 12th gen Primogen, I think it's quiet possible. Especially for a Nosferatu, a clan where raw power isn't priced as much as knowledge. Per Dark Ages, 12th gens were already around by at least the late 12th century, and a 800 year old 12th gen can be quiet impressive.

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                  • #10
                    There are disciplines and thaumaturgy that can temporarily decrease/increase generation (L9 Quietus and Blood of potency thaumaturgy respectively), and via ritual of bitter rose (Thaumaturgy) you can enable multi-person diablerie and quenching the lambent flame (permanent reduction in generation to 13) which reflect permanent increase/decrease in generation. V20 (rites of the blood) also introduced Father's Freedom (which removes the benefits of Diablerie.. or at least the ones tied to consuming the soul as some sources permit 'incomplete' or lesser diablerie where the blood is consumed but the soul isn't. The Giovanni - and the Giovanni chronicle specifically - are examples of the latter.)

                    So you could 'create' a thaumaturgical ritual that is basically a permanent version of the temporary generation-raising powers, a reverse-diablerie ritual, or a variation of quenching the lambent flame that allows you to adjust the generation of a vampire.

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                    • #11
                      Gold Monk

                      Okay, so there are several pcs, who will be tested by a Tremere and told they are of such-and-such a generation and clan?

                      Forget all the homebrew generation systems, they'll just tip your players off that something's up.
                      Forget all the obscure rituals, dug up in Supplement xx, on page xx.

                      Keep it simple.
                      1. Explain to your players that they should all write "13th generation" on their sheets, which is not technically a lie. Why? Because, the ST said so, that's why.
                      2. Run things as if they were the stronger generation, but don't tell the players.
                      3. There were a group of kindred who embraced a group of mortals. Why? Who cares, it doesn't matter.
                      4. The sires wanted to be anonymous, so they paid off the Tremere to lie about the results of the blood test.
                      5. The pcs will eventually figure it out.
                      Easy-peasey.

                      The only question that remains is how long you can string out the mystery once the players realize they are spending way too much blood per turn for a 13th gen. Just make sure to handwave any make-or-break situations where generation could be obvious. So, don't be too much of a stickler for counting blood points, etc.

                      Just allow them to discover the discrepancy naturally, through the course of play. The trick will be to keep the secret by dodging any direct questions, while not directly telling them the truth. If there are enough inconsistencies, they'll figure it out.

                      Example:

                      Storyteller: The Sabbat spots you in the alley, and raises her crossbow. What do you do?

                      Player 1: I spend a point of blood to raise my Dexterity. I'm going to dive through the window into the clock repair shop.

                      Player 2: Me, too. I also spend a point to raise my Stamina, in case I need to soak damage from all the broken glass.

                      Player 3: <looks at phone> What, huh? Oh, yeah, I do whatever they're doing.

                      Player 4: You can't spend two points. <pushes glasses up on nose, and grabs corebook> It clearly says on page, umm... here... page 270... that thirteenth gens can only spend 1 blood per turn. Really, Monk, you should read the book. This is just like when you said it was twelve days later, and we still had blood, but hadn't hunted. What's the point to having rules, if...

                      Storyteller: No, no. it's fine. Normally, for a thirteenth gen vampire, I wouldn't allow two points, but well... Tell you what, folks, it's true what's on page 270. I'll allow it this time, and just chalk it up as a mystery of the World of Darkness.

                      Player 3: Oh, umm, I'm going to Dominate the Sabbat to freeze where she is. <rolls dice> "Freeze, you!" <turns back to phone>

                      Player 4: Oh, for Pete's sake! You know she's 10th gen, and we're 13th. You can't Dominate her. <flips pages of the corebook angrily looking for the reference>

                      Storyteller: The Sabbat freezes in place, looking confused. The only sound is the ticking of the hundred clocks behind the storefront window. Do you guys still jump through the window?

                      Player 4: What?

                      Storyteller: Look, trust me on this. How it works is a... mystery. Nudge-nudge.

                      Player 1 and 2: Oh, my god. <look at one another with dawning realization>

                      Player 4: It's not a mystery, it's cheating. It's... oh, wait... hmmmmm...

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                      • #12
                        Hmm... One of the players spent his background points wanting to increase his generation... I might have to disappoint him and just tell him to pick something else.

                        The largest hurdle I forsee is the players not knowing they can drink more blood to fill up their pool without telling them.

                        Edit: On second thought, if they make the roll to stop drinking, I can make some off-handed statement about how they are still hungry. I forsee my players thinking it's just some "but the Beast still lingers" nonsense, but eventually one might try to push the limit.
                        Last edited by Gold Monk; 08-25-2019, 05:56 PM.

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                        • #13
                          See the book "Time of Thin Blood" and Beckett's Jyhad Diary. Sometimes, through happenstance and oddness, a vampire who's not 13th generation creates a thin blood.

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                          • #14
                            If you go the Time of Thin Blood route, there was an optional rule I believe that allowed a Storyteller to decide that others than just 14th and 15th (and 16th under V20) could be thin blooded, although how 'low' that goes generation wise was left open ended. That's not quite the same thing as 'diluted' blood = lower generation, though. Doubled blood point costs and inability to make ghouls (and I think Blood bonds) as I recall.

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