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2nd/3rd gens meths/elders?

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  • 2nd/3rd gens meths/elders?

    Well, I know similiar questions are posted from time to time.

    So, what will happen if a younger vampire of true legendary gens appear on earth? We’re talking about someone embraced by Caine himself(maybe?) or mystical 2nd gens, not more “reasonable” Antes or 4th gens.

    I just have some tips:
    1. Power
    “The higher the generation, the weaker his blood is” is just a thing after the revolt of 3rd gens if we refer to the Book of Nod. Caine, 2nd gens and 3rd gens before the flood may have the same potential. So maybe a 2nd/3rd gens embraced after the flood only has the strength of 4th gens?
    Another is age. Age determines he can’t be as powerful as true antediluvians, but (maybe?) much more powerful than meths/elders of the same age?

    2. Status
    Why was he embraced? What’s his role in the Jyhad? What’s his relationship with his older brothers and sisters?

    3. Reaction
    Well, his behaviors determine his influence and others’ reaction. What’s the vampire factions’ response to him? Will he become a top target?

    Please share your ideas!

  • #2
    Basically any clout they will have is due to experience. The reason 3rd and lower generations are walking plot devices is a combination of the weakening of blood and experience. Anyone embraced after the flood won't have as much experience to be the feared blood gods of old.

    To put it in perspective, Montano and Gratiano are both 4th gens, but embraced millennia apart. Montano has abilities that Gratiano doesn't because he's been around longer.

    The weakening of the blood was laid down onto the 3rd generation's progeny. Anyone embraced by Caine or his childer shouldn't be affected by any of his curses.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Kael03 View Post
      Basically any clout they will have is due to experience. The reason 3rd and lower generations are walking plot devices is a combination of the weakening of blood and experience. Anyone embraced after the flood won't have as much experience to be the feared blood gods of old.
      Will he still become a hot topic in the cainite society? Of course he is much weaker than his peers, maybe becoming a tragic prey at last, maybe...

      You’re right. Augustus, Giovanni and Tremere are examples for this, which is unique at some degrees. I wonder if any cainites dare to consume them...
      Last edited by Rock113; 08-25-2019, 11:34 AM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
        Will he still become a hot topic in the cainite society?
        assuming his identity is known, then yes,
        becoming tragic pray or not depends on his surroundings and how he handles them,

        some will want to diablerize him,
        some will want to use him to advance their agenda,
        some will try to keep his identity secret or make him disappear to prevent certain social structures to break down,
        some will seek him or capture him in hopes to get answers from him,

        and some might even fall pray to him,
        because, while a low gen neonate isn't very powerful, they are still more resistant or downright immune to dominate and presence, while their own dominate and presence are harder to resist,
        he might even be worshipped in certain noddist circles, sabbat or gehenna cults (especially if he's Caine's childe)


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        • #5
          Kinda a complicated question likely to be riddled with speculation and that's not likely to get you one concrete answer beyond 'Do whatever works for you.' But to take my stab at it:

          Mechanics wise, it is really going to depend on just how old you make them for most things. Apart from certain things (like ability to use powers like dominate effectively, blood pools and point usage) generation is really a measure of maximum potential. They still need time/effort (experience basically) to develop those powers to those limits and in terms of most powers a Gen 3 (or 4)'s development will not be little different from a vampire of the same age but a higher generation (unless they did literally nothing but train, I suspect.)

          This is probably good because beyond level 9 in disciplines - as Kael notes - they're basically walking plot devices. Technically we know a small number of 3rd (level 10) powers with some disciplines and you might be able to extrapolate others but 2nd generation is basically deus ex machina without significantly more extrapolation (muddying waters already fairly muddied) There's reasons why anything beyond 5th generation (which you could technically play as a character as per Elysium) are considered 'borderline unplayable' by some.

          There's also the influence of age on things like Methuselah's thirst. Whilst there is no hard and fast limit, Elysium speculates a number of factors (active for 500 years or more, Humanity less than 3, whether you've committed diablerie or not, number of childer created, blood bonding of younger vampires, conflict with own sire, few no ties to mortality, a sire who was a diabolist/addicted to vitae, any natures not architect, caregiver, cavalier, martyr, derangements relating to blood or feeding.) Generation isn't a factor as far as I know, but given that generation has an influence on potential power I'd consider it reasonable to treat it as one. This could cause problems with certain factions (Camarilla, although I can't see the Sabbat being entirely pleased with it given its a sign that the Eldest generations are active)

          Not hiding such power is going to have its own implications. One of the more obvious is that they become an obvious target for other vampires for diablerie. In conjunction with a potential NEED for vampire blood and the fact their potential may not be fully developed (powers, resources or both) they likely face a life of greater conflict. Their existence is - as mentioned - a walking testament to the activities of the older vampires (at 3rd gen, its an obvious indication that the first generation are more active, unless this vampire was made millenia ago and somehow remained asleep all that time until recently... which exacerbates some of the problems I said above with regards to 'lack of experience/resources' and adds 'lack of knowledge/acclimation to passage of time') I expect knowledge of such a person who isn't an Antediluvian (or their sires) to cause a great deal of internal conflict and squabbling in various sects and the focal point of a great many vampires agendas (seeking to exploit or use the individual, targeting them for elimination, making them figureheads or leaders, etc.)

          The sheer potential for conflict and disruption itself suggests that any such person (or group) is going to go to great lengths to keep their origins secret. Given possible motives for creating such a being, their sire likely will want that secrecy kept as well (and may provide more foolproof ways beyond the childe's generational limits.)

          Which does bring us to 'motive' and why such beings exist and this is largely going to depend on what you think the mindset/motivations of Caine or the second generation. I'm not sure certain iterations of Caine (EG the one from Gehenna The Final Night doesn't strike me as likely to spontaneously make another vampire.) The most likely motive in my thinking would be 'specific goal' like the Nosferatu antediluvian and the creation of the Nictuku (eg to act as assassins) or to serve as agents in some other purpose (against another third generation vampire as part of the larger Jyhad, or some other form of revenge.) Whilst those strike me as more likely (given how those of that generation have been depicted and the generally fractious natures of vampires and the implied past history) it doesn't mean there couldn't be other reasons. Perhaps they were made as companions (loneliness was the original cause of creation, and even Caine or the second-generation may get lonely again and make another companion despite knowing how it turned out before.) And even if they are made as an agent or for specific purposes that doesn't mean they're purposes are bad, Maybe they're agents of atonement (reversing previous mistakes), or they're meant to act as agents of salvation for the vampire race as a whole. (Creating another third-generation vampire to oppose Set or the Giovanni perhaps, or to bring peace between the Tremere and remaining Salubri and deal with Saulot.) Maybe they were simply created to act as spies and observers (The cabbie in Bloodlines may not have been Caine, but an agent of Caine or a vessel for his essence. That might help explain how he could still be in Kaymakli for example.)

          So to summarize:

          - They likely serve some specific purpose or were a mistake for good or ill. In most cases they likely will indicate that Caine and the second generation are still around and active in events whatever the motivations ascribed to them.

          - If their nature/origins are a known issue they're likely a disruptive influence becoming a focus for conflict in kindred society.

          - If they keep their origins secret then they aren't likely to be more powerful (or stand out more) than any existing Elders or Methuselah (with all the problems/benefits therein.) Although keeping those secrets will be the real challenge.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Kael03 View Post
            The weakening of the blood was laid down onto the 3rd generation's progeny. Anyone embraced by Caine or his childer shouldn't be affected by any of his curses.
            Unless Caine had to affect the fundamental curse of his own blood to spread that particular curse across all the antediluvians' progeny. I could see it going either way.

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            • #7
              Thanks very much, Mister_Dunpeal. And:

              Originally posted by Mister_Dunpeal View Post
              (Creating another third-generation vampire to oppose Set or the Giovanni perhaps, or to bring peace between the Tremere and remaining Salubri and deal with Saulot.)
              Speaking of this, I recall some claim their founders (Set, Haqim, etc)are 2nd gens. But... if this is true, why haven't we seen any 3nd gens Methuselah (at least) yet?...

              Just a thought. Never mind.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
                Speaking of this, I recall some claim their founders (Set, Haqim, etc)are 2nd gens. But... if this is true, why haven't we seen any 3nd gens Methuselah (at least) yet?...

                Just a thought. Never mind.
                probably because, like you mentioned before, their progeny would still be subject to the curse making them "mechanically" 4th gen


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                • #9
                  VTM is also spread out over several editions over a long, long period of time where the aesthetics and themes of the game changed, and that in turn changed some of the fundamental details. There's also a bit of a 'point of view' built into various clan books to reflect supposd 'bias' each faction might have for itself (or others), reflect myths and legends (and stereotypes) and so on. That covers details such as the actual generation of specific vampires (Durga Syn is another good example) but also motives/actions of specific characters (did Saulot sire the Baali, is he a good guy or bad guy or is he a split personality, or whatever.)

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