Running a game in Roman Britain 410 AD and need help PART 3

[Zennis]

If you’re interested, you can check out part one and 2 here.

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...ad-need-advice

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...ed-help-part-2

It is now March 411 AD

Mithras has taken partial control of the Noctus Eternus (the Camarilla like society of Rome) as it’s Imperator, a position he was elected to by the Eternal Senate. It gives him sweeping powers over Noctus Eternus. This position us based entirely on information presented in BNS and is as follows.

The Imperator acts as the voice of the Inner Circle on matters of war, coordinating efforts between Princes and the Justicars via his agents, known as the Myrmidons. The office has the authority to grant clemency, for virtually all crimes, to warriors who fight on behalf of the Imperator. A number of Harpies disapprove of this new policy, claiming that it distorts the order of society and weakens the power of the Princes. Few have refused to acknowledge the Imperator’s authority. The Imperator can only be removed from office by the will of the Inner Circle and is immune from prosecution from any lesser Camarilla office.
The Imperator’s authority includes:
• raising and coordinated military forces to deal with a specific threat or enemy, when sanctioned by the Inner Circle
• Granting clemency even to those blood hunted or on the Red List, to those who fight on behalf of the Imperator
• Appointing Myrmidions
• Issuing edicts from the Inner Circle changing global policy of the sect, solely for the purpose of protection
• Calling and enforcing a global blood hunt on a sect member who refuses to lend aid
• Holding immunity from the authority of any lesser sect office
• Holding global status jurisdiction

He thus allowed Caitiff to become citizens in Noctus Eternus and has gathered a large army of them in order to battle the werewolf tribes that sacked the city of Rome in 410 AD and is winning his war and forcing the Lupines back.

Now there are Caitiff in Rome and Mithras may yet save the empire from falling as he has abandoned his post as regional governor of Britainnia and is effectively the chief military officer of the vampires of Rome. Note that the mortals of the empire have, of course, no idea about this as the silence of the blood must be maintained. Still, it could have far-reaching consequences for the mortals of the empire as the vampires of Rome May just save it from falling in this timeline.

[Zennis]

So what I’m kind of looking for is some other ideas as to where Rome could go if it doesn’t totally fall in the west in the next 65 years. I am actually imagining it staying strong and potentially surviving for a while longer, but I’m looking for some ideas as to what consequences would likely come up and what the world would look like in such an eventuality.

[Robert D]

Romans pushing back the Anglo-Saxons in Britain if the Empire lasts long enough to witness the invasion of Angles and Jutes and Danes?
Vampires taking sides in the Struggle in the Church between the Catholic/Orthodox Christians and the Arian heresy?
Clovis the Frank being part of the Roman military in the next centuries?

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

This position us based entirely on information presented in BNS and is as follows.

BNS?

So what I’m kind of looking for is some other ideas as to where Rome could go if it doesn’t totally fall in the west in the next 65 years.

How about;

• Tense relations between the Eastern and Western "Roman" Empire, with alternating cold and hot wars,
• As part of that tension, the two empires prop up kingdoms that rival the other, such as the Eastern Empire supporting the German tribes and Ireland,
• Ireland becoming a regional power, partly through clandestine support from the Eastern Empire,
• Scottland is conquered by the Western Empire, and
• Known historical figures still appear, but as subjects - in some capacity - of the Western Empire.

[Zennis]

BNS?



How about;

• Tense relations between the Eastern and Western "Roman" Empire, with alternating cold and hot wars,
• As part of that tension, the two empires prop up kingdoms that rival the other, such as the Eastern Empire supporting the German tribes and Ireland,
• Ireland becoming a regional power, partly through clandestine support from the Eastern Empire,
• Scottland is conquered by the Western Empire, and
• Known historical figures still appear, but as subjects - in some capacity - of the Western Empire.

By Night Studios. its the slang for the new LARP book that came out a few years ago

[Black Fox]

So what I’m kind of looking for is some other ideas as to where Rome could go if it doesn’t totally fall in the west in the next 65 years. I am actually imagining it staying strong and potentially surviving for a while longer, but I’m looking for some ideas as to what consequences would likely come up and what the world would look like in such an eventuality.

For Rome, do you mean the city or the western empire? In either case, Rome is more or less entering terminal decline by 411.

The city itself is no longer the capital of the western empire. For quite some time it was obvious the real capital is wherever the emperor is, and the emperor was more or less in constant rotation along the frontier which is why Ravenna and Trier are now the de facto capitals of the western empire - they are closer to the border. Ravenna has been the official capital since 402.

The Vandals, Suebi, Alans,and other barbarians have already crossed the Rhine, traditionally said to be on New Years Eve 406. Along with the Visigoths, they have set themselves up in charge in much of France and Spain. These areas become more or less permanently loss to the empire. This is why Rome abandoned Britain in 410. And it gets worse from here.

In a few decades, the Vandals leave Spain and take over Africa. At this point, the western empire has lost much of its tax base, as well its granary. The Vandal sack of Rome in 455 is much worse than the Visigoths in 410, and is the reason why the term "vandalism" enters the European languages. Oh, and it gets worse.

Because a few decades after that the Huns invade. Although they are defeated, its only because Rome works with the Visigoths. By this time, the Roman army in the west has lost almost its entire Romanness and is controlled by its Germanic mercenaries who now obey their own kings rather than the Roman state. The western empire is pretty much only Italy at this point. In the last few decades, the eastern empire makes a few attempts to win back Africa for the western empire, but it always fails due to bad luck.

There are major historical forces at this undermining the empire, and I wouldn't find it plausible that the empire recovers because of some actions by any group of PCs, or your favorite NPC.

The Italian peninsula actually does quite well for itself in the last decades of the empire and under Ostrogothic rule until the Byzantines invade in the next century. So I'd just have the PCs take the easy route of surviving nicely in some Italian city while the rest of the empire declines. At least for the next century and a half.

Making massive counterfactual changes is something I'd consider to be too hard to manage because the world will simply become too unrecognizable with a surviving empire. I would simply make LOCAL changes to reflect the actions of the PCs or Mithras. There are all sorts of reasons why Mithras simply can't exercise control since by now (assuming you have allowed normal history to happen), Rome has already been fatally undermined.

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

The short version is this is Zennis game, and he can do with it as he pleases. And the modern (21st century) world would be unrecognizable, but his game is set in the first decades of the 5th century. Further, Mithras is consolidating power to himself, and maybe preserving the empire will keep his attention and keep his focus. Lastly, the PCs are working in what might be a survivor state, should Rome fall despite Mithras's effort. Moving the PCs to Rome misses the point.

[Saga]

Unless you choose to write up the Cainite hierarchy from scratch, I'd recommend Dark Ages Europe, Dark Ages British Isles, The Ventrue Chronicles and House of Tremere (for the Durham chantry).

306 AD Julian decapitates his 4th generation Ventrue sire and becomes Prince of Eboracum (York).
312 AD Montano manipulate a Ravnos to appear the chi rho in the sky to Constantine so that he support christianity (perhaps there a rift between Lasombra and Mithraic Ventrue from this).
409 AD Mithras survives several attempts on his unlife, other elders perishes.

- Saga

[Lian]

I feel like if Kindred ACTIVELY work towards the goal of staving off the end of the Roman Empire in the West, it is VERY much within the bounds of a Proto Camarilla... but this requires them acting towards it but it probably requires a lot more politicing and human influence rather than driving back the Lupines(Unless that is your thesis that without the Lupines' attacks the various Kindred communities would be much more expansive), I would say that the Fall of Rome requires as much politicing and perhaps asskicking of various Kindred powers(some who might even have holds among the Babarians) but ultimately its about forcing the Kindred of the Empire to put their efforts into a "greater good" than their personal bullshit... which may be harder than killing Lupines.

[No One of Consequence]

Hmm. Now I keep thinking about some sort of alternative history where the Emperor and a large following decide that the capital needs to relocate to Londinium, making Britain the new center of the Roman Empire. Maybe resulting in some sort of weird Roman Camelot thing, complete with The Boy Who Would Be Emperor and the Equites of the Round Table, by the sixth century.

[Black Fox]

The short version is this is Zennis game, and he can do with it as he pleases.

Of course he can. I was just giving him the context of what was happening historically around that time.

Moving the PCs to Rome misses the point.

I overlooked the point where he said Roman Britain. Since the actual post was about Mithras abandoning Britain to help the empire and talking about Caitiff in Rome, it sounded like the game was now taking place in Italy.

[Legendre]

So what I’m kind of looking for is some other ideas as to where Rome could go if it doesn’t totally fall in the west in the next 65 years. I am actually imagining it staying strong and potentially surviving for a while longer, but I’m looking for some ideas as to what consequences would likely come up and what the world would look like in such an eventuality.

The most obvious fallout is that, with the presence of Roman military forces (and Roman vampiric forces), the Anglo-Saxon cultural influence and immigration would likely be pushed back considerably, resulting in a Britain that was some sort of mixture of Brittonic-speaking Celtic culture on the one hand, and Roman culture on the other.

What's the fallout there?

My guess -- and let us admit that there are millions of variables and this is just me painting with the brushes I happen to have in my head -- is that citizenship ends up driving a wedge into society. And you either end up with the Romanesque overclass making slaves out of the non-citizen Britons, or you end up with an *internal* war between the land-owning, politically enfranchised Roman citizenry in Britain, and those Celtic Britons denied citizenship for various reasons. The question is whether this happens before or after the Danes decide to show up (if they decide to show up at all -- they are going to be faced with a very different sort of situation on their southern border if the Roman Empire is still flying high and may be less interested in attacking Britain than in saving themselves). If it happens before, then the victor is potentially going to be weakened, which means that the Danes have a better shot at victory. (And "Alfredus Gaius Magnus" or his equivalent may not be as resourceful, skilled, or lucky.) If it happens after, the Danes probably put their toes in the water, get spanked by the Romans, then if the Romans win the ensuing civil war, Europe becomes Roman until 1240 or so when it comes time to say hi to the Mongols.

Of course, since we're playing with history, things can go really screwy..... what state is Russia in if Rome is strong? Did the Varangians find things easier or harder when they came south? Did they come south in greater numbers?

From an RPG perspective, I think that the most interesting item is probably the first issue: the failure of Anglo-Saxon culture to take root and the Romanization of an "overclass" of citizens at the expense of the purely Briton underclass.

[Theodrim]

Don't forget there's an active Antediluvian a couple hundred miles away from Rome with its ass plopped right inside a seat of power to rival Ceoris, Vienna, or Alamut, with a very vested interest in fucking over basically anything Ventrue might be interested in doing in its backyard.

And its eldest known active child is all aboard that Catholicism train. Meanwhile, Mithras is over there with those pagan pre-Christian cults he loves so much. Let's not forget Egypt's in the middle of its own crisis of faith at the time, too.

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

Don't forget there's an active Antediluvian a couple hundred miles away from Rome with its ass plopped right inside a seat of power to rival Ceoris, Vienna, or Alamut, with a very vested interest in fucking over basically anything Ventrue might be interested in doing in its backyard.

If you are talking about Triole, she (he?) is not active. Triole is bound and captured under the ruins of Carthage. Other Brujah are probably kicking around with the barbarians at the edges of the empire.

[Theodrim]

If you are talking about Triole, she (he?) is not active. Triole is bound and captured under the ruins of Carthage. Other Brujah are probably kicking around with the barbarians at the edges of the empire.

[Lasombra], who as of this point would be either active or semi-torpid, in the Castle of Shadows.