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Antidiluvians for The Ebony Kingdom and The Drowned

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  • Antidiluvians for The Ebony Kingdom and The Drowned

    Forgive me but my knowledge on the Kindred of The Ebony Kingdom and the South American "Drowned" bloodlines/clans is very limited. Could somebody help me figure out where they fit in in terms of genealogy from the 2nd and 3rd Generation? Is there some indication of who founded these vampiric lines or is it all open to interpretation? Are they completely separate and unconnected or are there clear offshoots from other bloodlines and Antediluvians?

    Any info or theories would be appreciated.

  • #2
    Having read over that for the first time recently... my impression was that it's not clearly defined. Laibon are NOT Kuei-Jin. They clearly share more shared history with Western/European Kindred than the Cathayans do (who in most respects are a more sophisticated form of Risen in my mind, rather than Vampires. Or Risen that evolve vampiric tendencies.) But at the same time, they're not meant to be complete clones of the VtM Clans/Bloodlines either. There are obvious parallels you can make - some are much clearer than others, especially amongst minor bloodlines - and with the Followers of Set its even more obvious. But the Laibon approach to things is MUCH different (Aye and Orun notably in my mind)

    I feel like this is left intentionally open ended so you can either try to connect the Laibon to the Cainites (such as through a shared Antediluvian), or to leave them more unrelated... or some mixture of the two.

    The White Wolf Wiki purports some of those correlations between Legacies and Clans here. If that's the way you want to go, it's as good as any I suppose. Otherwise just go with whatever you want.

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    • #3
      So, originally the Legacies were considered to be variant lines of the 13 Clans (or vice versa); the official correspondences from the outline for Kindred of the Ebony Kingdom were:
      Akunanse - Gangrel
      Guruhi - Nosferatu
      Ishtarri - Toreador
      Kinyonyi - Ravnos
      Mla Watu - Cappadocian
      Naglopers - Tzimisce
      Nkulu Zao - Salubri
      Osebo - Brujah
      Shango - Banu Haqim
      Xi Dundu - Lasombra

      Since this wasn't stated in the actual book, only implied, Beckett's Jyhad Diary did some reworking to link some of the Legacies to the new African lineages in V20 Dark Ages: the Xi Dundu are actually a later regional name for the Ramanga (so they may or may not still be relatives of the Lasombra); the Mla Watu used to be the Impundulu (and therefore not descended from Caine), although they call themselves the Ishologu; and the Akunanse and Naglopers are effectively Bonsam bloodlines, having incorporated transfusions from other lineages - the Nagalopers used blood from a Tzimisce explorer, while the Akunanse's other source is unknown (so the Nagalopers at least are linked to Caine's lines, but neither they or the Akunanse originated with him).

      The Drowned... may not be Cainites at all; BJD and V5 Chicago by Night offer the possibility that they're more like predatory chameleons that adopt the predatory strengths and curses of the dominant predator in an area. If they do descend from Caine and the Antediluvians, it's unknown who spawned them.


      Scion 2E: What We Know - A wiki compiling info on second edition Scion.

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      • #4
        If I were to run a campaign with enough world travel in it to include the Laibon, then the Laibon would be the true original Clans and the European variants would be offshoot bloodlines. To me, it’s a simple matter of having to reconcile the game’s mythology with what we verifiably know about the history of the Earth and the human race in the real world. If vampirism is as old as the human race, then the first vampires were Africans.

        Does this mean that the legends a lot of the clans tell about their origins is wildly inaccurate? It sure does, which could lead to a lot of awesome discovery. Take the Guruhi, the African Nosferatu. Not only are they capable of looking angelically beautiful if they keep their morality high, it’s strongly hinted that they’ve long ago made peace with the Niktuku and become one united clan again. I find this to be a hilarious and awesome lampshading of the Nosferatu of Europe and the Americas.

        There should be novels about the Laibon. Lots of them. I wish I knew enough about the continent to set a campaign there and do it justice.
        Last edited by Reasor; 08-31-2019, 02:41 PM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Jeevesosiris View Post
          Forgive me but my knowledge on the Kindred of The Ebony Kingdom and the South American "Drowned" bloodlines/clans is very limited. Could somebody help me figure out where they fit in in terms of genealogy from the 2nd and 3rd Generation? Is there some indication of who founded these vampiric lines or is it all open to interpretation? Are they completely separate and unconnected or are there clear offshoots from other bloodlines and Antediluvians?

          Any info or theories would be appreciated.

          As far as i know, nebulous - but that is considering the Caine Cycle is actually anything close to true.

          What if the antediluvians make clans but are not of the clans themselves, creating multiple, varied broods of childer as experiments across the ages, the idea that a clan's founder is itself part of the clan just a self-perpetuating delusion and propaganda?
          Last edited by Baaldam; 09-02-2019, 10:37 AM.

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          • #6
            The Ebony Kingdom never clicked for me.

            Africa is massive. Second biggest continent, about the size of the three smallest put together. And while the Sahara is a lot of it, it also contains some areas which are, and historically has been, unbelievably population dense and urbanized. Population means blood, the primary resource for the kindred. For example, in the 12th -13th century, Mali probably had more people than western Europe, and in a far denser and more Kindred-friendly concentration.

            And according to Time of Judgement, Africa is where the Second City was. Now historically, the Sahara is not a constant thing, it tends to grow, shrink vanish and reappear with the millennia. 6000 years ago it was a fertile land with great rivers. Africa has also historically had some entirely enormous lakes, called megalakes. Some where the Sahara is now (Megafezzan) Remnants such as Lake Tritonis persisted into Roman times.

            Now this is where the Kindred started. They spread out from the Second City in all directions, although places like Europe and North Asia would have been pretty barren from a Kindred perspective, compared to fertile lands such as India and Africa. Seems to me thats where most of the action and history would be.

            Now come the 15th century and up, European kine expanded across the globe, and their various ticks and parasites went with them, including the Kindred. So kindred riding the success of their kine to domination works, and their myths and origin stories overwriting local ones also works. And thats the setting we have, a momentarily snapshot of European dominance.

            But the Africa of the Ebony Kingdom... does not work. It is basically an afterthought, with Brujah escaped from Carthage, Cappadocians and Salubri hiding out, and a grab bag of other bloodlines sprung off the European and middle eastern clans. Its Africa as a backwater, and an empty continent until bloodlines from elsewhere seep in.

            And kindred have been in Africa longer than in Europe, and its been way, way, way more blood-rich through its history.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Trollroot View Post
              And kindred have been in Africa longer than in Europe, and its been way, way, way more blood-rich through its history.
              Thematically, I'm inclined to disregard any "canon" information going back more than two thousand years. Simply because the main vampire lore that VtM draws on, both the post-Dracula/Varney/Carmilla stuff and what came before, is very European in origin. So while it would make a lot of sense in-universe for there to be all sorts of vampires in Africa, it seems weird out-of-universe for all of those vampires to be based on a European literary tradition.

              In Requiem 1e, for example, one of the clans is rumored to have originated in Africa (though Requiem generally avoids "this is the true canon of what happened back in Biblical times" so there's no One True Origin), and they're more associated with ghosts and the restless dead than with humans-who-drink-blood—rather than being Embraced, for example, they can arise spontaneously when someone dies with unfinished business and they're laid to rest improperly.

              That's the sort of thing I'd want to see more of for Africa in the World of Darkness: interesting variations on the central VtM themes, but drawing on local folklore in ways that make them different from the "main 13" clans. I don't know enough about Mesoamerican/South American folklore to say if the Drowned Legacies are accurate to it, but if they are, that's the sort of thing I'd like to see. It's why I like the Impundulu much more than the Laibon (and I hope V5 expands more on them).

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Draconis View Post

                Thematically, I'm inclined to disregard any "canon" information going back more than two thousand years. Simply because the main vampire lore that VtM draws on, both the post-Dracula/Varney/Carmilla stuff and what came before, is very European in origin. So while it would make a lot of sense in-universe for there to be all sorts of vampires in Africa, it seems weird out-of-universe for all of those vampires to be based on a European literary tradition.

                In Requiem 1e, for example, one of the clans is rumored to have originated in Africa (though Requiem generally avoids "this is the true canon of what happened back in Biblical times" so there's no One True Origin), and they're more associated with ghosts and the restless dead than with humans-who-drink-blood—rather than being Embraced, for example, they can arise spontaneously when someone dies with unfinished business and they're laid to rest improperly.

                That's the sort of thing I'd want to see more of for Africa in the World of Darkness: interesting variations on the central VtM themes, but drawing on local folklore in ways that make them different from the "main 13" clans. I don't know enough about Mesoamerican/South American folklore to say if the Drowned Legacies are accurate to it, but if they are, that's the sort of thing I'd like to see. It's why I like the Impundulu much more than the Laibon (and I hope V5 expands more on them).
                Well, by "more blood-rich through its history", I meant that the continent of Africa through history has been far larger than Europe, far more populous, and through periods with the population tending to be in higher density concentrations. Which is a kindred-friendly thing.

                Theres really three things that keeps me from getting behind the Ebony Kingdoms:

                I) The notion that Africa was pretty much an empty place in Kindred terms before being colonized by old world bloodlines. And how its sort of a reservation for clans thats been wiped out in the old world.

                II) The lack of background knowledge and research about real-world Africa and African history. (I am looking at you, V20 lineages). Yes the WoD is not exactly the same as ours but there should still be some parallels.

                III) The lack of internal consistency with the WoD. This is where we get to humanity and the kindreds' oldest territories being empty of kindred until Old World explorers bravely show up.

                Personally I've generally held the opinion that that the dominance of the Caine story and the biblical connection is the result of the elders that been dominant for the last 500 years or so having grown up in a highly christian-oriented worldview. Kindred are static creatures. And the success to the periods Old World kine have allowed them to subjugate other lands origin-myths. The pre-christian methuselahs probably don't hold with that story any more that the vampires of other lands.

                Although somehow, I expect all the origin myths to start with murder.

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