Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

[V5 ] Character Build Help and tips needed.

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • [V5 ] Character Build Help and tips needed.

    Hello everyone.

    I'm a first time player for V5, but long time player & ST of V:tM 2nd ed. revised

    As I'm working on creating my first character for V5, I'm not sure what to go, especially due to new mechanics, clan & discipline changes.
    Currently I only got the core book to work from, as the ST is disallowing any other material as most players in the group are new to V5.
    The story will be heavily Anarch-based play as I understand it.

    So I was thinking of doing of either a Caitiff or a Thin-blood, though I'm not sure of how well the TB's play out in V5. However I were considering, Malkavian, Ventrue and Tremere if I were to go with an actual clan choice, but I am open to other clan choices. I know I'm probably doing character creation a bit backwards according to some, but I like to decide on the various game mechanical character aspects first and then make the backstory fit, as I find that part a lot easier, when I have all the game mechanical character aspects in place.

    If I'm going with a Caitiff, I was definitely planning on taking the Clan-flaw to better blend in, but as for other merits and flaws that would good to take or stay away from in this edition I'm not to sure on. I'm not completely sure yet on the disciplines, but concept-wise Potence, Dominate, Obfuscate and Presence I think would fit very well with what I currently have in mind, but other combinations could also work. The concept idea I'm currently working on is a character who's heavily relying on getting people to do what he/she wants, dominating & manipulating people, either by brute force, intimidation, manipulation (stealth aspects as well), and other forms of coercion, and of course discipline use too (dominate & presense).

    As for predator, I'm not really sure, there are several I think could make sense, like Alleycat, Osiris and perhaps Sandmand. Even though we are restricted to core only, I'm curios if there are other predator types.

    I'm also open to suggestions, including full character builds.

    As for special mechanics, are there any I should in particular be aware of? Like for instance touchstones? - which I still haven't found out how it actually is supposed to work.

    Thank you in advance

    // Inc.

    Ps. I will add more as I work on this character.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Incarnate View Post
    Hello everyone.

    I'm a first time player for V5, but long time player & ST of V:tM 2nd ed. revised

    As I'm working on creating my first character for V5, I'm not sure what to go, especially due to new mechanics, clan & discipline changes.
    Currently I only got the core book to work from, as the ST is disallowing any other material as most players in the group are new to V5.
    The story will be heavily Anarch-based play as I understand it.
    Anarchs work well in V5, in fact, some have argued it is the default option. So far, so good.

    Originally posted by Incarnate View Post
    So I was thinking of doing of either a Caitiff or a Thin-blood, though I'm not sure of how well the TB's play out in V5.
    Caitiff are fine in V5, pretty similar to V20&pre in that it's difficult to crunch the fluff that Caitiff are hated.

    Mechanically, their flaw imposes the "Suspect" flaw (V5, p194), which gives a two dice penalty when dealing with a particular sect. Given it is an Anarch chronicle, I assume you would take "Suspect: Camarilla". Also, you may not take positive Status at chagen. Also, you might, at times, take an additional one or two dot penalty to social rolls, regardless of sect.

    If you play a Caitiff, I would suggest taking something to balance these flaws out. The advantage "Stunning" (V5, p179) adds two dice to dice pools where looks would help... and when don't they? You could also consider other means of becoming useful enough to be tolerated. The flaw forbids you to buy Status, but not other backgrounds like Mawla (ie Mentor), Allies, Contacts, etc. You are also allowed to purchase most Loresheets. This is good, because they are a way to purchase backgrounds cheaper, or to pick up minor supernatural abilities. Take a look at Theo Bell, the Voermanns, Rudi, and Fiorenza Savona (technically not Ventrue only!).

    Upside of the Caitiff flaw(s) is that they do not grow with your Blood Potency, in fact, they will tend to become less onerous as you get established.

    Thin Bloods...I would hesitate to recommend. They are sort of still in beta, and many of the rules are vague and rely heavily on ST interpretation. Probably not the best place for a new player to start, unless you really, really love learning new crunch.

    Originally posted by Incarnate View Post
    However I were considering, Malkavian, Ventrue and Tremere if I were to go with an actual clan choice, but I am open to other clan choices. I know I'm probably doing character creation a bit backwards according to some, but I like to decide on the various game mechanical character aspects first and then make the backstory fit, as I find that part a lot easier, when I have all the game mechanical character aspects in place.
    First, keep in mind that in V5 there are Compulsions. These occasionally force your character to behave according to a stereotype of their clan. Don't worry too much, because I think most folks have just sort of ignored them. That said, you may find it slightly harder to run any concept which runs too counter to the clan concept. Clan culture now has a basis in mechanics.

    Ventrue, as always, is a good choice. Amazingly, their flaw managed to get less punishing compared to earlier editions.

    Malkavians are also a good choice. Odd difference between V5 and earlier editions: Malk derangements are only in effect when you roll a bestial failure (V5 speak for a botch). So, no need for bunny slippers. IMHO, they have also removed a good chunk of the flavor of the Malks, with a highly mechanical, but not very flavorful bane. Easier to roleplay, anyway. I suppose that's good.

    Tremere are good, but I notice in your discipline wish-list only one of them is a Tremere in-clan.

    Originally posted by Incarnate View Post
    If I'm going with a Caitiff, I was definitely planning on taking the Clan-flaw to better blend in, but as for other merits and flaws that would good to take or stay away from in this edition I'm not to sure on.
    I'm pretty certain clan flaw is for Thin-bloods, not Caitiff. Don't feel bad for mis-reading it, the section in the book is organized strangely.

    This is as good a time as any to point out how truly fucked-up V5's layout and organization are. Ohmigod. No. It's worse than you think.

    Okay, so there's the "Advantages" section, which is subtitled "Merits", but includes within it both positive and negative traits anyone can purchase. Then, there are the "Thin-Blood Merits and Flaws", which in this edition are Thin-blood only, have no xp value because they are purchased by taking as many "thinblood merits" as "thinblood flaws", and are often much more complex to run than they look. Then, the "Backgrounds" section, which again includes both positive and negative traits available to everyone, some of which attach to the character, some of which attach to the background purchased.

    Simple enough, right? Except, back in the back of the book are Loresheets, which are basically Backgrounds which either give you some nifty supernatural tricks (Golcanda 5 lets you daywalk! For 5 points!), or breaks on the cost of Advantages and Backgrounds for tying your character into the canon meta-plot.

    Then there's the weirdness around the Domain background. It may or may not be allowed for coteries only, and has gotten a good deal more complicated.

    Sorry for the digression into critiquing the layout, it's my personal bugbear with V5. In any case, unless your ST is chomping at the bit to run a chronicle with Thinbloods, don't make them do it. It's like learning how to run a whole new species of supernatural. If you do decide to do a TB, post here first. There are a bunch of loopholes and exploits available. (eg Bloodhound.)

    Originally posted by Incarnate View Post
    I'm not completely sure yet on the disciplines, but concept-wise Potence, Dominate, Obfuscate and Presence I think would fit very well with what I currently have in mind, but other combinations could also work. The concept idea I'm currently working on is a character who's heavily relying on getting people to do what he/she wants, dominating & manipulating people, either by brute force, intimidation, manipulation (stealth aspects as well), and other forms of coercion, and of course discipline use too (dominate & presense).
    All four of those disciplines remain solid picks in V5. There's a trend in V5 to repeat certain powers at both the first and second level with similar effects. Often the main difference is the blood cost, and the breadth of effect. Keep in mind how often you want to use a power, how adaptable you want your use of it to be, and choose the levels accordingly. V5 is brutal on running around with low blood, so blood economy is important. This also, btw, is an argument for buying some Herd.

    My favorite introductory power in each of those disciplines.:
    • Potence 1: Lethal Body: Costs no blood, and you do Agg damage and ignore some armor when hitting mortals. Note, I said "hitting". Disciplines in V5 don't help you hit a target, they change the effect when you do hit. So, make sure to buy up mundane combat skills, or you'll be doing Agg damage to the empty air just next to a mortal. If you're good at aiming, this power turns every fistfight into a Hong Kong Action Cinema fistfight. Downside: not against vampires.
    • Presence 1: Daunt: OMG. Such a good power. First, it costs nothing so you can just walk around with it on all the time. Second, you add your Presence score to Intimidation pools, which is not a big deal now, but at higher levels it's one of the few ways to get that skill over 5 dice. Third, and this is the biggie... anyone who wants to attack you must succeed at a Resolve+Composure roll first. Anyone. Snipers, mooks, boss fights, and diablerists must all roll each time they launch an attack. Oh, and with the new social combat rules, it might work in social interactions. The Harpy wants to insult you? They have to roll first, and every time a vampire rolls there is a chance their hunger makes them freak out. Downside: completely new power, so relies a lot on your ST's interpretation. Makes you look like a scary asshole to random passersby.
    • Obfuscate 1: Silence of Death: Remember Quietus 1? This is a limited form of that, with no blood cost. Yep, you can be silent everywhere, all the time. Indispensable for a Sandman. Downside: a surprisingly complex power to adjudicate in play. What constitutes noises of you, or noises of your environment is a hard one. Do not choose this power if your ST is a physicist, engineer, or philosopher.
    • Dominate 1: Cloud Memory: No blood cost. Make somebody forget a few minutes of their life, or unlife. If I could only pick one power, this is the one. Downside: Don't let it make you lazy. No roll required against an "unprepared mortal", so can fail at the worst possible moment.

    Originally posted by Incarnate View Post
    As for predator, I'm not really sure, there are several I think could make sense, like Alleycat, Osiris and perhaps Sandmand. Even though we are restricted to core only, I'm curios if there are other predator types.
    Sandman is my personal favorite. In the hours when vampires operate there are nearly always people sleeping somewhere. My theory is that due to a layout error, it has no flaw attached.

    Alleycat is very good. I like it because there is nearly always someone around to snatch and drain. Also, losing one dot of Humanity is not too big of a deal. It actually makes mitigating Stains slightly easier.

    Osiris is okay. It requires a lot more setup to feed. If you take this, take Enemies as your flaw. You're bound to have some in a chronicle, anyway, might as well get some credit for them. Plus, Mythic Flaws are notoriously hard to buy off.

    Originally posted by Incarnate View Post
    I'm also open to suggestions, including full character builds.

    As for special mechanics, are there any I should in particular be aware of? Like for instance touchstones? - which I still haven't found out how it actually is supposed to work.

    Thank you in advance

    // Inc.

    Ps. I will add more as I work on this character.
    One further suggestion, consider choosing your Convictions first. It creates a good framework for a concept. Once you have those, the rest will flow more easily.

    Comment


    • #3
      First, a massive thank you for making this writeup Nosimplehiway, it's much a appreciated it .

      Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
      I'm pretty certain clan flaw is for Thin-bloods, not Caitiff. Don't feel bad for mis-reading it, the section in the book is organized strangely.

      This is as good a time as any to point out how truly fucked-up V5's layout and organization are. Ohmigod. No. It's worse than you think.
      About the clan flaw I was mentioning, the one I was thinking of was the clan-weakness flaw from the Outcasts - A players guide to pariahs book, a flaw that is caitiff specific, so when I read it in the V5, I completely missed it was intented for TB's, but at the same time thought it was good that they had included it in the core book for caitiffs to use, but apparently not then. Considering this, it's kind of weird they haven't made it available for the caitiff considering that it makes great sense for a caitiff to have this, plus it would also help blend it a bit better, as that flaw could definitely help mitigating some of the suspicion coming from not showing signs of the clan-weakness/bane.

      Speaking of the of layout and organization, I agree, the layout is really bad and very confusing. I notice in the mythic merits and flaws section, it only seems to contain flaws, which is a quite weird.

      Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
      You are also allowed to purchase most Loresheets.
      I'm not exactly sure how these work, requirements, limitations, cost and so on, including if there is some kind of chronological requirement, as in you need the previous ones to take a higher one.
      But I assume that with cost it would work like for instance when purchasing backgrounds, same goes for the chronological requirement as it's stated somewhere that they're seperate.

      Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
      Sorry for the digression into critiquing the layout, it's my personal bugbear with V5. In any case, unless your ST is chomping at the bit to run a chronicle with Thinbloods, don't make them do it. It's like learning how to run a whole new species of supernatural.
      Not a problem, but it's certainly a problem that it's layout and organisation is this bad. In regards to playing a TB, I'm going to park that thought, for now.

      Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
      First, keep in mind that in V5 there are Compulsions. These occasionally force your character to behave according to a stereotype of their clan. Don't worry too much, because I think most folks have just sort of ignored them. That said, you may find it slightly harder to run any concept which runs too counter to the clan concept. Clan culture now has a basis in mechanics.

      Ventrue, as always, is a good choice. Amazingly, their flaw managed to get less punishing compared to earlier editions.

      Malkavians are also a good choice. Odd difference between V5 and earlier editions: Malk derangements are only in effect when you roll a bestial failure (V5 speak for a botch). So, no need for bunny slippers. IMHO, they have also removed a good chunk of the flavor of the Malks, with a highly mechanical, but not very flavorful bane. Easier to roleplay, anyway. I suppose that's good.

      Tremere are good, but I notice in your discipline wish-list only one of them is a Tremere in-clan.
      I did have other clans that I would've liked to play, but they're just not in the core, and some of them are not even represented yet in the V5, like for instance the Assamites, Lasombra, Giovanni, and Ravnos.

      In regards to the "wishlist" there are other disiplines as well, it's just the disciplines I think would fit the best for the concept I had in mind, and blood sorcery just doesn't seem as good it used to, but of course there are some potent rituals and disciplines. There might be other disciplines that could be good for the concept I have in mind, so even though the character concept is about controlling/dominating/manipulating others, it doesn't necessarily have to be through discipline use, as some say knowledge is power and a great deal can be learned through from instance Auspex or Animalism.

      Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
      All four of those disciplines remain solid picks in V5. There's a trend in V5 to repeat certain powers at both the first and second level with similar effects. Often the main difference is the blood cost, and the breadth of effect. Keep in mind how often you want to use a power, how adaptable you want your use of it to be, and choose the levels accordingly. V5 is brutal on running around with low blood, so blood economy is important. This also, btw, is an argument for buying some Herd.
      Yes, it makes great sense to rely more on disciplines that doesn't require, simply due to the hunger mechanic and blood econmy, so being able to make effective and clever use from these would prove essential. I can definitely see why herd would be a lot more important in V5 than in earlier editions.

      Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
      Presence 1: Daunt: OMG. Such a good power. First, it costs nothing so you can just walk around with it on all the time. Second, you add your Presence score to Intimidation pools, which is not a big deal now, but at higher levels it's one of the few ways to get that skill over 5 dice. Third, and this is the biggie... anyone who wants to attack you must succeed at a Resolve+Composure roll first. Anyone. Snipers, mooks, boss fights, and diablerists must all roll each time they launch an attack. Oh, and with the new social combat rules, it might work in social interactions. The Harpy wants to insult you? They have to roll first, and every time a vampire rolls there is a chance their hunger makes them freak out. Downside: completely new power, so relies a lot on your ST's interpretation. Makes you look like a scary asshole to random passersby.
      Considering the concept of the character, wouldn't this actually be one of primary components of the build, especially how important intimidation might prove to be for the character, this is especially when considering the more direct approach to getting kine and kindred to do what he/she wants. I didn't think it would actually extend to any type of attack, whether it be melee, ranged, social or any other type of direct offensive action. Which also begs the question, what about "offensive" actions that are intended to indirectly affect the character using daunt?

      As far as I understand, during character creation the discipline point distribution is, 2 then 1 then 0 add the predator discipline. So for instance the starting discipline loadout could be:
      Presence: 2 | Dominate: 1 | Blood Sorcery: 0 | Obfuscate: 1 (Predator: Sandman)

      Speaking of starting discipline loadouts, I was considering these, but not limited to only these:
      Presence, Dominate Potence, Obfuscate (Predator: Sandman or Bagger)
      Presence, Dominate, Obfuscate, Potence (Predator: Alleycat)
      Presence, Obfuscate, Blood Sorcery, Potence (Predator: Alleycat)
      Dominate, Obfuscate, Blood Sorcery, Presence (Osiris)


      But even with these above, I could also see why adding in or replacing auspex or celerity with any of the above could be important for a caitiff's survival.

      Quite obviously, presence, dominate, potence and obfuscate are those that makes the most sense for the concept I have in mind, so I'm certainly open to other discipline loadout combinations, as long as it can be used with the concept I had in mind.

      The character concept would definitely seem alot like a ventrue, so I wonder if a caitiff could take a background from a loresheet that would provide one with status, like for instance the Ventrue Pillar? The background in itself isn't status, but it provides Status (Ventrue): 3. Furthermore, if the character had some kind of prey exclusion, it would certainly help to maintain the semblance of being Ventrue, despite it being a caitiff. Especially since there isn't the actual flaw: Clan weakness, it would make sense to grab flaw Prey Exclusion, the question just then becomes which to exclude.

      The archetype it could fit with, could be the director or perhaps the high priest, and if high priest then perhaps the osiris predator would make sense?
      Speaking of predator types, bagger might actually also make sense to pick, as ventrue cannot pick this, but as caitiff thats built around a ventrue-type vampire, it might actually be beneficial.

      // Inc.
      Last edited by Incarnate; 09-09-2019, 03:59 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Incarnate View Post
        I did have other clans that I would've liked to play, but they're just not in the core, and some of them are not even represented yet in the V5, like for instance the Assamites, Lasombra, Giovanni, and Ravnos.
        Assamites are in the Cam book and Lasombra are in CbN. Giovanni (and their kin) will be in Cults of the Blood Gods, coming out soon; Ravnos will be in the Player's Guide, coming out a little bit less soon, if you want to wait for them.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Incarnate View Post
          As far as I understand, during character creation the discipline point distribution is, 2 then 1 then 0 add the predator discipline.
          Pretty much. Two points in one, one point in another, then add a predator type discipline.

          But there's no real reason to mention the zero. Most vampires will have a third in-clan with no starting dots in it, but Caitiff have no in-clan disciplines at all, so it doesn't matter.

          Comment


          • #6
            Draconis

            The Caitiff write-up says:

            Caitiff characters have access to three Disciplines of your choice following the Embrace. These are not considered in-clan for the purposes of Experience cost and the Caitiff can learn any Discipline at the same price assuming they taste the Blood of a wielder at least once and fulfill the standard conditions for that Discipline. -V5, p107
            Now what exactly that means I'm not certain. It does tell players of Caitiff pcs to choose three disciplines. Why? (Maybe, because copy editing is not V5's long suit?)

            You could... maybe, if you squint real hard... interpret it as meaning Caitiff start with three disciplines they have access to intuitively. That is, like how clan members can just sort of choose to learn their third clan discipline without much more explanation, Caitiff can do the same with their level 0 discipline. Different xp cost, of course, but fewer narrative hoops to jump through.

            I wouldn't read it that way, but I can't say someone is wrong for allowing it.

            It has always been a bit of a blind spot in VtM the thing where everyone has tasted their sire's blood, and new disciplines require one to taste the blood of someone who knows it. Presumably, most sires know more than two or three disciplines. It's reasonable to assume a Caitiff's sire probably knew more than three disciplines.

            Meh, it probably doesn't matter anyway. What matters is how the individual ST running Incarnate's game wants to run things.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Incarnate View Post
              First, a massive thank you for making this writeup Nosimplehiway, it's much a appreciated it .
              No problem. We'll call it a trivial boon. You alert the Harpie. Or... I could, but then that would be another trivial boon.

              Originally posted by Incarnate View Post
              About the clan flaw ... signs of the clan-weakness/bane.
              The Clan Weakness flaw is a canon flaw in V20&pre. Check with your ST. Most STs would allow you to port it in, though strictly speaking it's not clear V5 gives points for flaws. I might see an ST making it a merit for a pc hiding among a clan. ymmv

              If you want to hide within a clan, your best bet in canon is to take flaws which approximate your "host" clan or pick a clan which has no good way to measure your flaw. Then take the Dark Secret flaw, with the secret being "hiding within a clan". This mechanically defines you as having successfully inserted yourself into a clan, otherwise there'd be no secret. Now, there is no guarantee you'll keep the secret. In fact, it's kind of a given your ST will do everything to out you. Upside, this is a much easier charade among the Anarchs.

              Example: Playing a Caitiff who is a gifted financier from an aristocratic, but cash-poor family. Take Dominate and Presence. Take Prey Exclusion and Dark Secret (Caitiff passing as Ventrue). Remember to buy up Subterfuge and Etiquette with specialties in Clan Passing and Ventrue traditions.

              Some other options are to ask your ST about taking a "Mask" in a falsified clan membership. It used to be do-able through Alternate Identity, so maybe that could be ported. This is getting into "what your ST will allow" land, though, so don't get your hopes up.

              Originally posted by Incarnate View Post
              Speaking of the of layout and organization, I agree, the layout is really bad and very confusing. I notice in the mythic merits and flaws section, it only seems to contain flaws, which is a quite weird.
              There is Eat Food. This is a mythic flaw, because, umm, see p XX. Seems like a Feeding merit to me.

              Originally posted by Incarnate View Post
              I'm not exactly sure how these work, requirements, limitations, cost and so on, including if there is some kind of chronological requirement, as in you need the previous ones to take a higher one.
              But I assume that with cost it would work like for instance when purchasing backgrounds, same goes for the chronological requirement as it's stated somewhere that they're seperate.
              See pages 137, 151, 190, and, of course, 382-406. You buy Loresheet levels separately, not sequentially, and they seem to be the same price as other Advantages. So, you can buy Golconda 5 at chagen instead of buying Resources 5. (NB: Go look at Golconda 5.)

              Originally posted by Incarnate View Post
              Not a problem, but it's certainly a problem that it's layout and organisation is this bad. In regards to playing a TB, I'm going to park that thought, for now.
              TBs aren't necessarily a bad idea. They are just more complicated, and maybe not best for a player new to the edition. If your ST is comfortable with it, though, might be no problem.

              Originally posted by Incarnate View Post
              I did have other clans that I would've lik...tainly open to other discipline loadout combinations, as long as it can be used with the concept I had in mind.
              What exactly is the concept you have in mind? This process is much, much easier if you start with the pc's personality and go from there.

              Originally posted by Incarnate View Post
              The character concept would definitely seem alot like a ventrue, so I wonder if a caitiff could take a background from a loresheet that would provide one with status, like for instance the Ventrue Pillar? The background in itself isn't status, but it provides Status (Ventrue): 3. Furthermore, if the character had some kind of prey exclusion, it would certainly help to maintain the semblance of being Ventrue, despite it being a caitiff. Especially since there isn't the actual flaw: Clan weakness, it would make sense to grab flaw Prey Exclusion, the question just then becomes which to exclude.
              If you mean Pillar of the Clan, that is a clan-specific Loresheet trait. Technically, it is only available to Ventrue. Now, if your sire is Ventrue, you are Caitiff, and no one knows you aren't Ventrue, I could maybe see an ST allowing it. Personally, if it were my table, I would allow it with the Dark Secret flaw, but would rule that if the cover is blown you lose the points in the Loresheet trait. I would also make it a personal goal to blow the cover, because I would assume that's the melodramatic narrative arc the player wants.

              That's just me, though, and totally not canon.

              Originally posted by Incarnate View Post
              The archetype it could fit with, could be the director or perhaps the high priest, and if high priest then perhaps the osiris predator would make sense?
              Maybe I'm wrong, but I think most people are ignoring the archetype thing entirely.

              Originally posted by Incarnate View Post
              Speaking of predator types, bagger might actually also make sense to pick, as ventrue cannot pick this, but as caitiff thats built around a ventrue-type vampire, it might actually be beneficial.

              // Inc.
              Is there a reason you want a Caitiff pretending to be Ventrue? Wouldn't it be easier to just build a Ventrue? Or a Ventrue who thinks they are a Caitiff? You like Dominate and Presence, right? Their flaw is not so punishing, arguably less punishing than Caitiff.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Incarnate View Post
                Hello everyone.

                I'm a first time player for V5, but long time player & ST of V:tM 2nd ed. revised

                As I'm working on creating my first character for V5, I'm not sure what to go, especially due to new mechanics, clan & discipline changes.
                Currently I only got the core book to work from, as the ST is disallowing any other material as most players in the group are new to V5.
                The story will be heavily Anarch-based play as I understand it.

                So I was thinking of doing of either a Caitiff or a Thin-blood, though I'm not sure of how well the TB's play out in V5. However I were considering, Malkavian, Ventrue and Tremere if I were to go with an actual clan choice, but I am open to other clan choices. I know I'm probably doing character creation a bit backwards according to some, but I like to decide on the various game mechanical character aspects first and then make the backstory fit, as I find that part a lot easier, when I have all the game mechanical character aspects in place.
                All of these options are good for an Anarch chronicle. With the Pyramid broken, there is plenty of space for Anarch Tremere, and they even have their own House, House Ipsissimus, briefly detailed in the Anarch book. It gives a lot of freedom for things to play with.

                If I'm going with a Caitiff, I was definitely planning on taking the Clan-flaw to better blend in, but as for other merits and flaws that would good to take or stay away from in this edition I'm not to sure on. I'm not completely sure yet on the disciplines, but concept-wise Potence, Dominate, Obfuscate and Presence I think would fit very well with what I currently have in mind, but other combinations could also work. The concept idea I'm currently working on is a character who's heavily relying on getting people to do what he/she wants, dominating & manipulating people, either by brute force, intimidation, manipulation (stealth aspects as well), and other forms of coercion, and of course discipline use too (dominate & presense).
                Honestly, your concept would work very well as an Anarch Ventrue and maybe talk to the ST about learning Obfuscate from someone. The concept of the 'mafioso leg breaker' as a Ventrue is something that's different, but still fits with the 'hierarchy' aspects, and gives him ample reason to bail on the Camarilla. Would give you some interesting plot hooks.

                As for predator, I'm not really sure, there are several I think could make sense, like Alleycat, Osiris and perhaps Sandmand. Even though we are restricted to core only, I'm curios if there are other predator types.
                There haven't been any predator types in any of the books out so far. There are a couple of homebrew ones floating around, but I think many of them eschew V5's standard design space.

                As for special mechanics, are there any I should in particular be aware of? Like for instance touchstones? - which I still haven't found out how it actually is supposed to work.
                Do you actually have the book? It clearly tells what Touchstones are on pg. 173. But, to paraphrase: Touchstones are a human that is tied to a Vampire's Convictions (their personal morality, the way they keep the Beast at bay). These Touchstones represent the Conviction in some direct manner, reminding them of the thing they think about to keep the Beast at bay and mitigate Stains (so if you have the conviction 'Educate and lead those beneath you,' you might have a Touchstone of a community leader who goes out of their way to do those things for their community.) A vampire as many Touchstones as they have Convictions (up to three).

                As far as character creation, you should really be doing this with the group you're going to be playing with. V5 has a lot of moving parts that are predicated on the group being created together, so that things like the Relationship Map, the Generation of the vampire, and other factors are decided upon with input form the ST and the group, so that you don't end up with 'I'm a lone wolf, I have no reason to interact with you, and at the first opportunity I'm going to backstab you!'

                Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                Draconis
                Now what exactly that means I'm not certain. It does tell players of Caitiff pcs to choose three disciplines. Why? (Maybe, because copy editing is not V5's long suit?)

                You could... maybe, if you squint real hard... interpret it as meaning Caitiff start with three disciplines they have access to intuitively. That is, like how clan members can just sort of choose to learn their third clan discipline without much more explanation, Caitiff can do the same with their level 0 discipline. Different xp cost, of course, but fewer narrative hoops to jump through.

                I wouldn't read it that way, but I can't say someone is wrong for allowing it.

                It has always been a bit of a blind spot in VtM the thing where everyone has tasted their sire's blood, and new disciplines require one to taste the blood of someone who knows it. Presumably, most sires know more than two or three disciplines. It's reasonable to assume a Caitiff's sire probably knew more than three disciplines.

                Meh, it probably doesn't matter anyway. What matters is how the individual ST running Incarnate's game wants to run things.

                It means what it says. They have three Disciplines that they start out with, of the player's choice. They put two dots in one, one dot in a second, and no dots in the third. They can buy the third without a teacher, and when they have a teacher, they can buy anything they're taught at the Caitiff Discipline Cost, not an 'in clan' cost (IE: like a Brujah would pay x5 for Potence, Celerity or Presence but x7 for Dominate out of clan when taught, a Caitiff pays x6 for everything).

                Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                The Clan Weakness flaw is a canon flaw in V20&pre. Check with your ST. Most STs would allow you to port it in, though strictly speaking it's not clear V5 gives points for flaws. I might see an ST making it a merit for a pc hiding among a clan. ymmv
                It only mentions that it gives points for Flaws in the Coterie Section. By omission, it's pretty clear that personal Flaws don't return points (which is also why you can't take more than 2). We do have a dev comment from Facebook confirming this as well, from Karim Muammar.

                There is Eat Food. This is a mythic flaw, because, umm, see p XX. Seems like a Feeding merit to me.
                Merits are Flaws are bundled, the same as how Backgrounds and their attendant Flaws are bundled. Anything with a (*) is a Flaw; anything with a * is a Merit. So, for example, you have the four Feeding Flaws (Organovore, Methuselah's Thirst, etc) showing their flaw ratings in (*) and the Feeding Merits Bloodhound and Iron Gullet shown with * and *** respectively. Eat Food is just a merit by itself, of 2 dots **.

                See pages 137, 151, 190, and, of course, 382-406. You buy Loresheet levels separately, not sequentially, and they seem to be the same price as other Advantages. So, you can buy Golconda 5 at chagen instead of buying Resources 5. (NB: Go look at Golconda 5.)
                Note that it has been stated by one of the writers that the Caitiff Clan Bane prevents you from buying any Loresheets that give you Status at creation as well.
                Last edited by elmerg; 09-09-2019, 09:38 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Nosimplehiway Mind sharing what are the loopholes and tricks with the thin-bloods? What's the great advantage of Bloodhound?
                  So far the only real thin-blood trick I found was taking Ballard 5 loresheet, with Resources 4/Retainer 3, and Circulatory System 2 loresheet. Your retainer puts ten points into Haven, giving you Haven 3/Laboratory 5/Whatever 2, for a sweet +5 to distillation and twenty-two prepared formula cans stored at home. Being any other kind of thin-blood alchemist is for chumps. Circulatory System arguably gives another +1 to distillation, but more importantly lets you research more formulas per downtime period. If you are not getting enough xp for this to pay off - take whatever else you want. Like Herd 2 to pump your osiris herd to 5.
                  Last edited by Kammerer; 09-10-2019, 07:38 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                    Sandman is my personal favorite. In the hours when vampires operate there are nearly always people sleeping somewhere. My theory is that due to a layout error, it has no flaw attached.
                    There is no error there. Every Predator Type gives N merits, and N-1 flaws. Sandman gives one merit. One minus one is zero, so there are zero flaws. It only gets inconsistent with Humanity and Blood Potency - Alleycat's Humanity is worth three merits, but Consensualist's humanity is worth two flaws. But I personally don't like these anyway.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                      The Clan Weakness flaw is a canon flaw in V20&pre. Check with your ST. Most STs would allow you to port it in, though strictly speaking it's not clear V5 gives points for flaws. I might see an ST making it a merit for a pc hiding among a clan.

                      It's still a flaw, as you actually still would get their bane, even if that would allow you to easier hide within the clan. Furthermore, it could also story-wise be an indicator of one actually being of ventrue, but something got messed up during the embrace, which didn't solidify the clan-tie. In my character's case, it could be the case that he/she isn't actually trying to hide within the clan, but believes it's of the clan due to the sire being ventrue, being taught ventrue principles and disciplines, the character actually found it harder to learn disciplines but didn't know why, but found it just as difficult to learn other disciplines outside of the ventrue clan, hence why the character would have presence, dominate + 2 others outside of the clan. Which obviously could make certain other vampires curious/suspicious as to why that was.

                      Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                      If you want to hide within a clan, your best bet in canon is to take flaws which approximate your "host" clan or pick a clan which has no good way to measure your flaw. Then take the Dark Secret flaw, with the secret being "hiding within a clan". This mechanically defines you as having successfully inserted yourself into a clan, otherwise there'd be no secret. Now, there is no guarantee you'll keep the secret. In fact, it's kind of a given your ST will do everything to out you. Upside, this is a much easier charade among the Anarchs.

                      Example: Playing a Caitiff who is a gifted financier from an aristocratic, but cash-poor family. Take Dominate and Presence. Take Prey Exclusion and Dark Secret (Caitiff passing as Ventrue). Remember to buy up Subterfuge and Etiquette with specialties in Clan Passing and Ventrue traditions.

                      Which is essentially what I've done so far, approximated the "host" clan. Essentially with ventrue, it would be very difficult to actually to measure it, as long as I keep to a select type of prey when "being watched", which obviously means he/she would have to be very aware of anyone "watching". The prey exclusion isn't really a necessity, it's just a mechanical reminder . The dark secret (Caitiff passing as Ventrue) could still be applied even if one isn't trying to pass as a ventrue, but for all intents and purposes believes he/she is one. Which is just going to hit a lot harder if they somehow find out and reveal that the character is indeed not a ventrue but a caitiff. Not just for the character but also the clan as well, so they might want to keep a lid on it.

                      Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                      What exactly is the concept you have in mind? This process is much, much easier if you start with the pc's personality and go from there.

                      I already did, guess you missed it then.
                      The concept idea I'm currently working on is a character who tries to control the situation and people (kine and kindred) to do what he/she wants, either by brute force, intimidation, manipulation (stealth aspects as well), and other forms of coercion, deception and control, of course discipline use too (dominate & presence) when necesser. As some say knowledge is power!

                      Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                      If you mean Pillar of the Clan, that is a clan-specific Loresheet trait. Technically, it is only available to Ventrue. Now, if your sire is Ventrue, you are Caitiff, and no one knows you aren't Ventrue, I could maybe see an ST allowing it.

                      It's named exactly that in the book - Ventrue Pillar, but it's probably the same one we're talking about. It's the one that comes from the Descendant of Hardestadt, which is ventrue characters only. Yes, exactly the same reasoning I was having.

                      Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                      Maybe I'm wrong, but I think most people are ignoring the archetype thing entirely.

                      Even if they're ignoring it, it still conveys something I'm aiming for the character to be.

                      Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                      Is there a reason you want a Caitiff pretending to be Ventrue? Wouldn't it be easier to just build a Ventrue? Or a Ventrue who thinks they are a Caitiff? You like Dominate and Presence, right? Their flaw is not so punishing, arguably less punishing than Caitiff.

                      It would be easier to build a ventrue, but a caitiff character is my opinion much more moldable. It doesn't necessarily have to pretend to be a ventrue, but that would make the most sense considering the discipline loadout consisting of dominate and presence + 2 others, especially if someone is paying a much more attentive eye to what disciplines he/she uses. A caitiff thats pretending to be of a specific clan, wouldn't it be a lot easier to play than one doesn't know his clan and also has to try and hide it from others? Also, I think the concept would fit quite well with the personality of a ventrue.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by elmerg View Post
                        All of these options are good for an Anarch chronicle. With the Pyramid broken, there is plenty of space for Anarch Tremere, and they even have their own House, House Ipsissimus, briefly detailed in the Anarch book. It gives a lot of freedom for things to play with.

                        Yes, but the ST has only allowed us to currently to "play with" the core book for now, because we have several new players to the V5 system, me included.

                        Originally posted by elmerg View Post
                        Honestly, your concept would work very well as an Anarch Ventrue and maybe talk to the ST about learning Obfuscate from someone. The concept of the 'mafioso leg breaker' as a Ventrue is something that's different, but still fits with the 'hierarchy' aspects, and gives him ample reason to bail on the Camarilla. Would give you some interesting plot hooks.

                        Hmm, the mafioso's legbreaker as a Ventrue - yeah it's quite different and I hadn't actually thought about that, but in the hierarchy of things, everyone has a place even lesser Ventrues.
                        As for learning for learning Obfuscate, story-wise it could've been learned from another mafioso kindred, but mechanically have come from the Predator (Sandman). Indeed, because being given a place of authority and power, would be just the thing for a ventrue, or at least a kindred that thinks as one.

                        Originally posted by elmerg View Post
                        There haven't been any predator types in any of the books out so far. There are a couple of homebrew ones floating around, but I think many of them eschew V5's standard design space.

                        Yeah, I don't think we will be going for anything homebrew, at least not yet.

                        Originally posted by elmerg View Post
                        Do you actually have the book? It clearly tells what Touchstones are on pg. 173. But, to paraphrase: Touchstones are a human that is tied to a Vampire's Convictions (their personal morality, the way they keep the Beast at bay). These Touchstones represent the Conviction in some direct manner, reminding them of the thing they think about to keep the Beast at bay and mitigate Stains (so if you have the conviction 'Educate and lead those beneath you,' you might have a Touchstone of a community leader who goes out of their way to do those things for their community.) A vampire as many Touchstones as they have Convictions (up to three).

                        Yes, I do, although it's the digital version. I haven't had the time to read all parts of the book just yet, especially since I'm only going to be a player in it for now. So as I understand it, a touchstone is a living human, does it have to remain a human only, like if ghouling would it change it and potentially destroy it as a touchstone? Also does it have to remain in the function of what i represents, like with your example of the community leader? So like for instance if the community leader was ghouled or for some reason decided to become something else where they did not represent the function of being a community leader?
                        Originally posted by elmerg View Post
                        As far as character creation, you should really be doing this with the group you're going to be playing with. V5 has a lot of moving parts that are predicated on the group being created together, so that things like the Relationship Map, the Generation of the vampire, and other factors are decided upon with input form the ST and the group, so that you don't end up with 'I'm a lone wolf, I have no reason to interact with you, and at the first opportunity I'm going to backstab you!'

                        Yeah, I've noticed this and have left me with some questions that you guys cannot answer.

                        Originally posted by elmerg View Post
                        It means what it says. They have three Disciplines that they start out with, of the player's choice. They put two dots in one, one dot in a second, and no dots in the third. They can buy the third without a teacher, and when they have a teacher, they can buy anything they're taught at the Caitiff Discipline Cost, not an 'in clan' cost (IE: like a Brujah would pay x5 for Potence, Celerity or Presence but x7 for Dominate out of clan when taught, a Caitiff pays x6 for everything).

                        That is exactly how I've perceived and understood it. I wonder why this wouldn't be obvious to others as well. I mean if you look at any other clan, they have 3 disciplines, the rules say put 2 in the first, 1 in the second, which obviously means 0 in the last. The last discipline that starts at 0, would count as being in the blood, just not learned how to use it yet - which one would have to spend xp to represent.

                        Originally posted by elmerg View Post
                        Eat Food is just a merit by itself, of 2 dots **.

                        But the thing is, it's the ONLY mythic merit, which would be the equivalent of supernatural merit in previous edition.
                        So I wonder where all of the other supernatural merits & flaws. Eat food used to be a physical merit, so obviously others could've gone the other way, but still only 1 mythic merit and very few mythic flaws?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Incarnate View Post
                          Yes, I do, although it's the digital version. I haven't had the time to read all parts of the book just yet, especially since I'm only going to be a player in it for now. So as I understand it, a touchstone is a living human, does it have to remain a human only, like if ghouling would it change it and potentially destroy it as a touchstone? Also does it have to remain in the function of what i represents, like with your example of the community leader? So like for instance if the community leader was ghouled or for some reason decided to become something else where they did not represent the function of being a community leader?
                          It does have to be a living human, and it talks about damage to the touchstones, and Stains you gain from ghouling people, talking about this on pg. 240 of the book. Considering what a Touchstone represents (a tie to something that keeps you Human), it's logical that ghouling them would give Stains from 'harming the Touchstone.' If the Touchstone ever stops representing the Conviction, there are methods talked aobut in the book to move that 'connection' to another person, same as if the Touchstone died.

                          Yeah, I've noticed this and have left me with some questions that you guys cannot answer.
                          Such as...? Some of that might be answerable, depending. I've been running the game since last September, so... ask away, I'l lbe happy to answer.

                          That is exactly how I've perceived and understood it. I wonder why this wouldn't be obvious to others as well. I mean if you look at any other clan, they have 3 disciplines, the rules say put 2 in the first, 1 in the second, which obviously means 0 in the last. The last discipline that starts at 0, would count as being in the blood, just not learned how to use it yet - which one would have to spend xp to represent.
                          Right. But a lot of people have to have every niggling little detail spelled out for them, rather than applying critical thinking to it. And V5's design methodology of 'if I mention it, it applies; if I don't mention it, it doesn't apply' (like points back from flaws as a coterie vs. no points back from personal flaws) throws a lot of people.

                          But the thing is, it's the ONLY mythic merit, which would be the equivalent of supernatural merit in previous edition.
                          So I wonder where all of the other supernatural merits & flaws. Eat food used to be a physical merit, so obviously others could've gone the other way, but still only 1 mythic merit and very few mythic flaws?
                          Well, remember, V5 is purposely scaled back to not overwhelm new players, and a lot of the old 'flaws' that were individual are covered by the Folkloric Bane and Folkloric Blocks now. The Merits and Flaws in the book are anemic, especially if you're going in expecting ALL THE EVERYTHING EVER PRINTED ala V20. But, we will be getting more Merits, Flaws and Backgrounds in the Player's Guide, as confirmed by two of the writers working on it.
                          Last edited by elmerg; 09-11-2019, 06:33 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by elmerg View Post
                            It does have to be a living human, and it talks about damage to the touchstones, and Stains you gain from ghouling people, talking about this on pg. 240 of the book. Considering what a Touchstone represents (a tie to something that keeps you Human), it's logical that ghouling them would give Stains from 'harming the Touchstone.' If the Touchstone ever stops representing the Conviction, there are methods talked aobut in the book to move that 'connection' to another person, same as if the Touchstone died.

                            Well, ghouling I wouldn't necessarily perceive as harming the touchstone, as that specifically would be tied to what conviction it was representing, but I follow your point.

                            Originally posted by elmerg View Post
                            Such as...? Some of that might be answerable, depending. I've been running the game since last September, so... ask away, I'l lbe happy to answer.

                            Such as questions that are specific to the story in question, like for instance what generation we're going to play.

                            Originally posted by elmerg View Post
                            And V5's design methodology of 'if I mention it, it applies; if I don't mention it, it doesn't apply' (like points back from flaws as a coterie vs. no points back from personal flaws) throws a lot of people.

                            What I was getting at, was not what you're talking about here, but the fact that it's organized in a very weird and confusing way.

                            Originally posted by elmerg View Post
                            Well, remember, V5 is purposely scaled back to not overwhelm new players, and a lot of the old 'flaws' that were individual are covered by the Folkloric Bane and Folkloric Blocks now. The Merits and Flaws in the book are anemic, especially if you're going in expecting ALL THE EVERYTHING EVER PRINTED ala V20. But, we will be getting more Merits, Flaws and Backgrounds in the Player's Guide, as confirmed by two of the writers working on it.

                            I'm not expecting everything to be there, but if you look in just the V:tM 2nd edition revised core rulebook, which is the system I've been running the most, the core of V:tM 2nd rev. book contains a lot of merits and flaws that pertains to being physical, mental, social and supernatural, where most of these are not in the V5 core book, which means there is a lot vampires from previous editions that you really cannot accurately portray in V5, canon or not. However, I think it's good that they've made it so that merits and flaws are extended to backgrounds as well.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Incarnate View Post
                              What I was getting at, was not what you're talking about here, but the fact that it's organized in a very weird and confusing way.
                              Amen to that!

                              It is overall a good game, once you get through the disorganization. Totally worth it, but it would be nice to get a V5.1 edition with a more user-friendly layout.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X