Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Speculation on who the Dark Father is

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Speculation on who the Dark Father is

    So, I've been reading over the Book of Nod. In the Chronicle of Secrets, there is a prophecy called the Awakening of the Dark Father.

    "Of these signs you will know
    The Dark Father, bastard of Caine,
    will awaken, and drink deep of blood
    sacrificed to it."

    I am curious if there has been anything official/semi-official as to who this is. I am keying on the "bastard of Caine" reference. This implies that there may be an unknown 2nd gen vampire that wasn't destroyed.

    Thoughts?

  • #2
    could be Seth

    when Seth awakened (reborn in the womb of a thinblood)
    the setites gathered and sacrificed themselves to him, sucking them dry, killing them in the process

    it was in one of that introductory scenario with nutchurch


    -

    Comment


    • #3
      Then wouldn't that make Set 2nd gen?

      Comment


      • #4
        Setites even argue he might be the actual 1st gen xD

        other possibility is the Ravnos antideluvian,
        we don't know if he's 2nd or 3rd gen,
        and even though he got nuked, the surviving Ravnos are saying he might be resurrected as some dark god (I'll fetch some source, in Chaining the Beast),
        alot of Ravnos are having those weird visions and impulses from their half sentient beast which might be their antideluvian's call
        Last edited by Pleiades; 09-06-2019, 02:55 PM.


        -

        Comment


        • #5
          According to the book of genesis, enoch was a son of Cain. Bastard of Caine could refer to this. He woke up in two out of three scenario's in BJD and in one of them went on a rampage murdering anyone that got in his way.

          Comment


          • #6
            I would lean towards Enoch. He might be forcing the jyhad on everyone out of spite.

            Comment


            • #7
              I could very well be a mistranslation on the part of the chronicler, with "Dark Father" referring to Caine himself, or if you wanted a gnostic/Cainite Heresy take on it, it could be referring to God in the sense of being the Demiurge - the dark supreme being which created the material world as a prison for human souls. Or it could be a generic term for any of the third generation, the "dark fathers" of their lines who will awaken and drink deep of the blood of their childer.


              What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
              Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

              Comment


              • #8
                As I recall there's one passage that suggests Caine is the dark father. But then later on it suggests the Dark Father is another person. I'm inclined to think it's NOT Caine, since it was simply implied to be him (Dark Mother vs Dark Father passage) since they referred to Caine as 'dark Father' only the D wasn't capitalized (intentional?)

                Assuming that Caine is not the 'Damned King/Dark Father' spoken of in 'signs of Gehenna' part of the Chronicle of Secrets, and if we take the assumption that the Dark Mother is indeed Lilith (not implausible.) We could surmise that the Dark Father is someone who is a particular enemy of Lilith (other than Caine that is) or that one or the other bear particular enmity towards each other. And if we take that passage literally that passage will presage an invasion from Hell.

                Further down when we get to the 'Empire of Blood' we learn more (the 'Third Day' - The Wild Ones (fae?) will leave (presumably Earth) for good, the Moon Beasts (Garou obviously) will fight to the last (their Apocalypse) and we get the Antediluvian 'Empire of Blood' for a thousand years. Just before the mention of the 'Last Daughter of Eve' you get a reference to the 'Father of Darkness, whose power will come from the nether realm'. Again this could be a reference to hell and demons.. or it could be Abyssal (Lasombra again) although given some interpretations of Vissictude I wouldn't rule out Tzimisce either. Or Set, for that matter.

                Another interesting possibility is that if you believe Troile is male, it could be him given his ties to Moloch and Carthage (elements that have been brought up recently with Beckett's Jyhad Diary, I believe?) and the notes for 'Chronicles of Secrets' suggests that the Dark Father might be the Brujah Antediluvian...

                A bit further one when we get to the Time of Thin Blood (and another mention of the 'Wild Ones' which to me suggests Fae but I believe has been linked to the Garou due to 'hunt us in the strongest city') they mention the awakening of the 'eldest' and the Crone will 'awaken and consume all'. And the 'Black hand will rise up and choke all those who oppose it' which is commonly taken to mean the Tal'mahe'ra, who are considered servants of the Antediluvians and I believe have infernalist ties as well.

                Then we get to 'Awakening of the Dark Father' which is what implies Caine is NOT the same person.

                The first paragraph mentions 'the heads of three Princes will watch the burning of the dawn on a pillar of white'. Now as I recall the Camarilla is called 'the Ivory Tower' and in conjunction with 'Princes' that would be the first interpretation. The one I commonly assumed however was that 'pillar of white' referred to the mushroom cloud from a nuclear explosion in conjunction with 'burning of the dawn' and in turn made me think of the Week of Nightmares and the three Bodhisattvas that fought Ravnos. (Princes may not be literal here, perhaps.)

                It also mentions an 'ancient hunger will awaken deep in the northern woods and consume all her childer' - what this means is anyone's guess. It could be Baba Yaga, or the Crone (2nd generation I believe), or it could be Ennoia (a pure guess given forests, although not a good one I think) for all we know. Or something else entirely. Given the mention of the 'Crone' before and the notes suggesting some Methuselah could apply, you could suggest its the 'Crone' from the book of Nod (2nd generation) or again Baba Yaga (4th generation)

                The next paragraph mentions 'An Elder Darkness will stir deep below a city which has forgotten and will suprise the Elder, its children.' First thing here I thought of was the Tzimisce Antediluvian, but you could also think of the Lasombra Antediluvian given it may have become an Abyssal creature. It could also refer to Set (one of the endings of Gehenna had Set being 'revived' and promptly consuming his descendants to strengthen himself)

                After all this the 'Dark Father' the 'bastard of Caine' will awaken and drink from blood sacrificed to it. That might suggest it's not one of the thirteen 'known' Antediluvians (since unless Caine hated them ALL - perhaps for what they did to the second generation - we might consider them legit) but another Antediluvian we don't know about. THe fact the passage goes on to say that you have to 'lay claim to your Clan's safety' also in my mind suggests the Dark Father may not be of the 13 clans. One possibility (which dovetails with the 'Hell invasion' I spoke of earlier) and ties in with blood sacrifice might be the creator of the Baali.

                Now all that said the notes for Awakening of the Dark Father, despite mentioning a rebel or outcast Antediluvian who has earned Caine's enmity - and mentions the Brujah Ante specifically) - it is also mentioned that they are a collection of prophecies all located together but despite that may not all be connected.

                I've been trying to find time to read the other background books for more possible connections, but haven't gotten that far yet.
                Last edited by Mister_Dunpeal; 09-07-2019, 08:44 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I like the idea that it is Enoch, and that he has a particular reason to hate Caine and his childer in particular. I'm thinking I might run with that.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    It might be Matthew Dawkins.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Its Keyser Soze.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Mister_Dunpeal View Post
                        As I recall there's one passage that suggests Caine is the dark father. But then later on it suggests the Dark Father is another person. I'm inclined to think it's NOT Caine, since it was simply implied to be him (Dark Mother vs Dark Father passage) since they referred to Caine as 'dark Father' only the D wasn't capitalized (intentional?)

                        Assuming that Caine is not the 'Damned King/Dark Father' spoken of in 'signs of Gehenna' part of the Chronicle of Secrets, and if we take the assumption that the Dark Mother is indeed Lilith (not implausible.) We could surmise that the Dark Father is someone who is a particular enemy of Lilith (other than Caine that is) or that one or the other bear particular enmity towards each other. And if we take that passage literally that passage will presage an invasion from Hell.

                        Further down when we get to the 'Empire of Blood' we learn more (the 'Third Day' - The Wild Ones (fae?) will leave (presumably Earth) for good, the Moon Beasts (Garou obviously) will fight to the last (their Apocalypse) and we get the Antediluvian 'Empire of Blood' for a thousand years. Just before the mention of the 'Last Daughter of Eve' you get a reference to the 'Father of Darkness, whose power will come from the nether realm'. Again this could be a reference to hell and demons.. or it could be Abyssal (Lasombra again) although given some interpretations of Vissictude I wouldn't rule out Tzimisce either. Or Set, for that matter.

                        Another interesting possibility is that if you believe Troile is male, it could be him given his ties to Moloch and Carthage (elements that have been brought up recently with Beckett's Jyhad Diary, I believe?) and the notes for 'Chronicles of Secrets' suggests that the Dark Father might be the Brujah Antediluvian...

                        A bit further one when we get to the Time of Thin Blood (and another mention of the 'Wild Ones' which to me suggests Fae but I believe has been linked to the Garou due to 'hunt us in the strongest city') they mention the awakening of the 'eldest' and the Crone will 'awaken and consume all'. And the 'Black hand will rise up and choke all those who oppose it' which is commonly taken to mean the Tal'mahe'ra, who are considered servants of the Antediluvians and I believe have infernalist ties as well.

                        Then we get to 'Awakening of the Dark Father' which is what implies Caine is NOT the same person.

                        The first paragraph mentions 'the heads of three Princes will watch the burning of the dawn on a pillar of white'. Now as I recall the Camarilla is called 'the Ivory Tower' and in conjunction with 'Princes' that would be the first interpretation. The one I commonly assumed however was that 'pillar of white' referred to the mushroom cloud from a nuclear explosion in conjunction with 'burning of the dawn' and in turn made me think of the Week of Nightmares and the three Bodhisattvas that fought Ravnos. (Princes may not be literal here, perhaps.)

                        It also mentions an 'ancient hunger will awaken deep in the northern woods and consume all her childer' - what this means is anyone's guess. It could be Baba Yaga, or the Crone (2nd generation I believe), or it could be Ennoia (a pure guess given forests, although not a good one I think) for all we know. Or something else entirely. Given the mention of the 'Crone' before and the notes suggesting some Methuselah could apply, you could suggest its the 'Crone' from the book of Nod (2nd generation) or again Baba Yaga (4th generation)

                        The next paragraph mentions 'An Elder Darkness will stir deep below a city which has forgotten and will suprise the Elder, its children.' First thing here I thought of was the Tzimisce Antediluvian, but you could also think of the Lasombra Antediluvian given it may have become an Abyssal creature. It could also refer to Set (one of the endings of Gehenna had Set being 'revived' and promptly consuming his descendants to strengthen himself)

                        After all this the 'Dark Father' the 'bastard of Caine' will awaken and drink from blood sacrificed to it. That might suggest it's not one of the thirteen 'known' Antediluvians (since unless Caine hated them ALL - perhaps for what they did to the second generation - we might consider them legit) but another Antediluvian we don't know about. THe fact the passage goes on to say that you have to 'lay claim to your Clan's safety' also in my mind suggests the Dark Father may not be of the 13 clans. One possibility (which dovetails with the 'Hell invasion' I spoke of earlier) and ties in with blood sacrifice might be the creator of the Baali.

                        Now all that said the notes for Awakening of the Dark Father, despite mentioning a rebel or outcast Antediluvian who has earned Caine's enmity - and mentions the Brujah Ante specifically) - it is also mentioned that they are a collection of prophecies all located together but despite that may not all be connected.

                        I've been trying to find time to read the other background books for more possible connections, but haven't gotten that far yet.
                        'The Father of Darkness whose power comes from the nether realm' could also be any suitably powerful Cappadocian, Giovanni, etc.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Haqim.
                          He was never embraced but became kindred through ritually stealing the Heart's Blood of Caine's first childer while still mortal in one version of Assamite origins, right?
                          Tremere, who also became a vampire not through embrace but complex shenanigans to steal the Gift from others.
                          (thought technically one might also say that Goratrix is the one who actually did it...)

                          Or anyone else that circunvented the embrace somehow might count as a "Bastard of Caine"....

                          Just my random guess.
                          Last edited by Baaldam; 09-12-2019, 11:08 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
                            Haqim.
                            He was never embraced but became kindred through ritually stealing the Heart's Blood of Caine's first childer while still mortal in one version of Assamite origins, right?
                            Tremere, who also became a vampire not through embrace but complex shenanigans to steal the Gift from others.
                            (thought technically one might also say that Goratrix is the one who actually did it...)

                            Or anyone else that circunvented the embrace somehow might count as a "Bastard of Caine"....

                            Just my random guess.

                            Interesting way of interpreting bastard of Caine. i believe Vlad Tepes also stole the embrace and the forces of destiny are supposedly at work around him. But Haqim makes the most sense to me if we go by your interpretation. He is old and powerful enough to warrant the title ''Dark Father'' and his clan are a bloodthirsty bunch that would glady sacrifice a shit ton of people or vampires to feed him if he wakes up from his torpor.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by blackshade View Post


                              Interesting way of interpreting bastard of Caine. i believe Vlad Tepes also stole the embrace and the forces of destiny are supposedly at work around him. But Haqim makes the most sense to me if we go by your interpretation. He is old and powerful enough to warrant the title ''Dark Father'' and his clan are a bloodthirsty bunch that would glady sacrifice a shit ton of people or vampires to feed him if he wakes up from his torpor.

                              Dracula.... not exactly. Lambach Ruthven, while press-ganged into doing so by Vlad's independent ghoul squad, the Axes, did embrace him.
                              Who then procedded to diablerize Lambach's superior in the Sabbat (who might or not have been his sire, sources get confusing on that) Tabak.

                              As an aside, since i found out Lugosi is an artistic surname that literally means "from Lugoj", this has been my personal canon of the Blood-Breaker's prefered appearance. and consequently, also the Eldest hiding under his identity.
                              Last edited by Baaldam; 09-14-2019, 11:37 AM.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X