[V20] Resisting Presence and Auspex 8

[Yorkblack]

Hello everyone !


In our current game, a gen 5, 2000yo Toreador awoke from torpor, and we need to destroy it. We have the support from the rest of the city (mostly gangrel and brujah, as well as nosferatu, tremere and toreador), as well as lupines, and the plan is to summon her somewhere and then just throw everything at her. I'd be fine with this plan, considering we have werewolves and a lot of manpower, if it wasn't for two little things : presence, and auspex. I don't know what disciplines she has, but I'd rather plan for the worst case scenario, and assume she has 8 in celerity, presence and auspex.


I'm afraid that with auspex, she might know our plans in advance, and that with presence, she will just use majesty+ironclad command so no one could resist her. So, I'm looking for ways to resist those two things ! I'm guessing there might be tremere rituals for auspex, so maybe if we formulate the plans in the chantry she couldn't overhear us ? But what about presence ?


Oh, and before you ask : no, there isn't someone even bigger, badder and powerful-er we could use, sadly. That was my first idea, but nope.

Thanks a lot for your ideas !

[Heavy Arms]

Defending against elder Auspex is a matter of not making yourself known to said vampire in the first place. If a high level Auspex user vaguely knows who you are and you're a threat, keeping your plans secret (esp. with that big of an alliance) is basically impossible. If said vampire hasn't caught on yet, you're in luck because generally speaking that level of Auspex requires knowing who your target(s) is. If she already knows? Plans are kinda pointless, throw everything you've got at her you can muster during the day to minimize her power.

Basically, hope that 2,000 years means her Humanity is in the toilet because it's the only chance you've got.

Anything the Tremere can do to bolster your current WP (diff of many Presence actions), or temp. buff your Generation (anyone that's temporarily boosted to 4th Gen as ridiculous as that is can resist Presence more easily), will help. Consider being a dick to your Lupine allies, throw them in as the first wave during the day and cause them all to frenzy to make it harder to manipulate them; plus they can overwhelm high level Celerity en mass.

[Legendre]

Have you considered switching sides?

Perhaps this ancient vampire is a benevolent and generous patron towards those who know their place...

Alternately....

[Pleiades]

most unga bunga scenario I've seen in a while,

my suggestion, forget everything your were planning to do,
she's toreador, play on her sensibilities,

find a piece of art that will get her transfixed for eternity,
this could be an opportunity for a horrifying scenario, where several vampires are doomed to servitude and paint and repaint till they satisfy her (if ever)

or you could have a scenario inspired by the music of erich zann where a vampire (or a mortal) has to play the violin every night to appease her

something like that

[Eldagusto]

People over estimate High level Disciplines and even high level Attributes. 8 dots in Auspex means if they focus they can probably get the info they desire through specific means. It doesn't mean actual Omniscience. And high mental traits doesn't mean you know how everything plays out because supernatural powers always make things less predictable.

Though such a being would have really good methods of puppeteering with Auspex and Presence 8.

[Saga]

Auspex 8, as said above is not Sight of the Oracles (which is 9 in DA), but she can use Auspex 6 and don't even need to leave her body to spy over her enemies. This perhaps the Tremere can neutralize in specific places of planning.

Presence 8 with Majesty is truly hard to overcome. I'd say the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Go to the Sabbat, tell them the truth, there's a juicy methuselah in the city and tempt them to diablerize her. Once they go full frontal attack, snipe her from a safe long distance range and at mid-distance get a team to be near enough to finish her.

Alternative, call an archon to deal with the issue, or learn who she is, and perhaps search for a childe within her lineage to either know if she is a worthy ally or, if not, learn her weaknesses.

- Saga

[Yorkblack]

Defending against elder Auspex is a matter of not making yourself known to said vampire in the first place. If a high level Auspex user vaguely knows who you are and you're a threat, keeping your plans secret (esp. with that big of an alliance) is basically impossible. If said vampire hasn't caught on yet, you're in luck because generally speaking that level of Auspex requires knowing who your target(s) is. If she already knows? Plans are kinda pointless, throw everything you've got at her you can muster during the day to minimize her power.

Basically, hope that 2,000 years means her Humanity is in the toilet because it's the only chance you've got.

Anything the Tremere can do to bolster your current WP (diff of many Presence actions), or temp. buff your Generation (anyone that's temporarily boosted to 4th Gen as ridiculous as that is can resist Presence more easily), will help. Consider being a dick to your Lupine allies, throw them in as the first wave during the day and cause them all to frenzy to make it harder to manipulate them; plus they can overwhelm high level Celerity en mass.

Well, she knows who we are, so there's that. Good call on the tremere buffing us, though they're not that numerous so i don't know how much they can. As for the lupine, yeah, I was always planning to throw them in the meat grinder. Either they kill them, and problem solved, or they get killed, and there are less lupines around. Win win ?

Have you considered switching sides?

Perhaps this ancient vampire is a benevolent and generous patron towards those who know their place...

Alternately....

We have, actually, but she went full terminator on us, asking us for our boots, clothes, and motorcycle. Well, our estates, contacts, allies and political powers at least, and my friend had the great idea of just running away from her. Luckily, she didn't just kill her on the spot (I guess the ST was being benevolent). Nuke from orbit would be my go to plan, if we weren't in the middle of Paris, and I didn't have to uphold the masquerade. Yeah, it's a pain, it would be easier to just go full sabbat on her and burn the city down.

People over estimate High level Disciplines and even high level Attributes. 8 dots in Auspex means if they focus they can probably get the info they desire through specific means. It doesn't mean actual Omniscience. And high mental traits doesn't mean you know how everything plays out because supernatural powers always make things less predictable.

Though such a being would have really good methods of puppeteering with Auspex and Presence 8.

You're probably right, but still, with auspex 6, she can spy whatever she wants easily, and with presence 8, her presence powers are almost impossible to stop.

Auspex 8, as said above is not Sight of the Oracles (which is 9 in DA), but she can use Auspex 6 and don't even need to leave her body to spy over her enemies. This perhaps the Tremere can neutralize in specific places of planning.

Presence 8 with Majesty is truly hard to overcome. I'd say the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Go to the Sabbat, tell them the truth, there's a juicy methuselah in the city and tempt them to diablerize her. Once they go full frontal attack, snipe her from a safe long distance range and at mid-distance get a team to be near enough to finish her.

Alternative, call an archon to deal with the issue, or learn who she is, and perhaps search for a childe within her lineage to either know if she is a worthy ally or, if not, learn her weaknesses.

- Saga

Sadly, the archon is a no-go : her awaken is part of the transition of our campaign towards V5 situation, which means that a lot of elder vampires are awakening everywhere (at least in my ST's interpretation), so the cam as a whole has their own problems. The sabbat will be hard too : first, sorry if I didn't clarify that, it's a cam game and I'm the sheriff (which is why the planification of all that falls upon me), so calling upon the sabbat isn't exactly what I'm supposed to do, especially since I'm pretty sure this whole thing is basically a test to see if I'm worth something, since I just got the job. But more importantly, we kind of wiped out the sabbat around the area when they tried to invade earlier, so they won't be much help.

[Thoth]

A 5th generation vampire presents some interesting challenges, it mostly depends how long the vampire was in Torpor for. If a two millennia old 5th generation has spent only five hundred or so years awake and active, that is one thing. If the 5th generation vampire has been active for most of that time and only took a decade or two for a dirt nap, then you are beyond screwed.

In general someone this powerful isn't a city unifying against it level threat, this is a "sect leadership council" deals with it level threat. Between Auspex and Presence your plans will be known and your allies loyalty compromised. This is assuming such an ancient vampire doesn't know any other tricks, which is a foolish assumption.

Your best option is to move to a different city, preferable in a different state and if you must insist on "fighting" the elder, then you engage using methods she can't grasp yet. Basically you hacking and economic attacks to cripple anything to do with her territory and holdings. You won't be able to kill her, but you can limit her power growth until the sect leaders get their tails in gear.

[Nosimplehiway]

In our current game, a gen 5, 2000yo Toreador awoke from torpor, and we need to destroy it.

Why?

This isn't just curiosity. Who had the temerity to call a bloodhunt on such a creature? The Camarilla Inner Circle and Founders are not in the habit of ordering such actions, without officially placing the target on the Red List. If you do this without official leave, you are in danger of breaking the sixth tradition. Odds are quite good the Toreador methuselah has a surviving ally... or worse for you, a doting sire.

In any case, here is your list of likeliest allies. Probably 75% of the sixth generation would be happy to strengthen their blood, given the resources you bring to the operation.

• Scanning the list, I'd say Hardestadt the Younger might be the most likely to participate. His generation is one of the biggest holes in his padded resume.
• Anne Bowesley is a habitual diablerist, and might be interested.
• It might be difficult getting word to Dylan Bruce, but if he knew, he'd be a hard yes. (If he fails, you might get credit for manipulating a Red Lister into destruction.)
• If you can track down Lucinde, she might be interested if the Inner Circle have ordered the hit. She brings useful tools.

[Necroscope0]

Good luck summoning her, unless your summoner is 7th gen or lower she can blow off the summons completely with a single willpower, if it beat her in the first place. Also Auspex 8 is plenty for her to realize you are plotting against her even if you had never met. Visions are a thing from auxpex 1 on. Many STs under utilize this as it is not really detailed mechanically and up to their discretion but if you are planning on killing her even if you never met there is a decent chance she will have had some sort of vision to warn her of an up coming threat which then gives her the excuse to turn her massive powers of auspex on the subject of who and why which she WILL figure out.

Again this feels like hand of god to a degree so I have to agree with those asking why you "need to kill her" at all and why exactly it is your job as, unless you are a wicked old and powerful elder yourself, does not seem logical.

[PazuzuAxelf]

All your worries are solved with Thaumaturgy.

Make friends with the Tremere (difficult) and give them a reason to go after her (not that hard tbh).

[pang4]

I'd go with the suggestions of some earlier posters in this thread: abuse the Toreador weakness.

Presumably some information is to be found on this Methuselah. What did she like? Fine paintings or sculptures? Poetry or music? Nubile naked bodies? The flickering of candles? Find what fascinates them, and present them with it. Bombard them with gifts of what it's curse desires, and go from there...

[Undead rabbit]

1) Do not do it yourself
Tip off the Sabbat, a Methuselah is a servant of the Antes, and her blood will be quite the boon for the diablerist of the Sword of Caine. Black Hand kamut, or simply wild packs full of shovel head could be quite the threat
Pay the indipendents. Assamite's assassins would be a good start, and a Giovanni's poltergeist that set your blankets on fire during the day can be quite the bitch. Most vampires are completely unaware of defense against necromancy and wraiths.

2) Use multiple plans. The more you throw at her, the less likely it will be for her to catch everyone of them

2) Do what Pendragon did in New Hampshire: send ghoul during the day and burn to the ground her havens. Waking up is not simple, and for elders it can be even harder, besides, dicepool is limited during the day.

3) Kidnap an hunter and plant in his memory knowledge of this powerful demon-vampire. Let the hunters weaken her. She will have to keep herself on on the move or reinforce her haven, causing exposure and chance to exploit.

4) If you have enough political pull call the 911-Justicar. One of the main responsabilities of the Justicars is keeping in check rogue elders. A Coterie of Archons led by a Justicar are enough to kill anything.
Build some dirt on her. Make sure that she is accountable for some "mysterious" masquerade breach (good to entice the hunters too). No matter who you are, important masquerade's breach are enough to summon a Justicar.

5) Poison the wells. Elders and Methuselah's needs a lot of blood. Kill her herd, or poison it with diseases.

6) Create a false front against her. A very manifest political faction driven to her destruction. Use this as a beacon to drain all of her attention toward it, then out-flank her, slowly but steadily.

7) Send young vampires almost drained and on the verge of frenzy; Frenzy should help against Presence.


8) Use modern technology as much as you can to get an edge. Many elders do not even know how a car works, and for most modern telephone are not much different from magic orbs. Jewels with bugs inside, or wiretaping phones of her ghouls will allow you to counter the intelligence she will get with her hard-Auspex.

9) Search for thin-blood prophets, their insight about the Jyhad and the Metuselahs machinations might give you something.

10) Be sure to get the Nosferatu aid. Elders' obfuscation might be enough to counter some Auspex powers and their infos will be vital.

11) Court the Tremere. Blood Magic is impredictable, even for a Methuselah. They have a ritual that shields you against Presence power (nevertheless a vampire with Presence 8 might overcome this barriers, Vitel had Presence 7 and it was enough to overcome Pavis of the Foul Presence.

[Yorkblack]

Lots of great advice here, thank you very much !

Just a few points though : outside help is, sadly, unavailable. There is no sabbat in the city anymore, or very little, as we just won againt a sabbat invasion. Also, as the sheriff, part of my job is to keep them out, and finally, I'm a lasombra antitribu who just faked his death and switched side, so I can't really go back and say "hey guys, remember me ? Sorry I betrayed you, but could you give me a hand ?". Giovanni are mostly killed too, there were few to begin with and some harbinger of skulls killed them during the sabbat invasion. As for the rest of the cam (justicars, archons, etc), they're quite busy, because this seems to be a global phenomenon, with lots of similar situation around the world (the meta reason is that we're transitioning to V5, so elders are awakening and going to the middle east because of the beckoning, but I don't know that). Also, the campaign as a whole is rather city centered, with few connection to the rest of the world, except to show that there are ongoing events, like the week of nightmares. My ST doesn't want to bring the whole metaplot, canon characters, etc, in the campaign, except for a few of them once in a while.

Also, even is she's uber powerful and all, she doesn't have any political or economical power. She just woke up, and doesn't have any ally : in fact, no one knows her. That is why she tried to have her descendant, the other PC, give her everything she owns. She refused and escape, so for now, it seems she just stays in her haven, and probably hunt, while planning... something. I guess, at least.
Killing the herd will be tough, since she has no herd and, i guess, just hunts. Her haven is underground but connects to the surface (and thus, to the kine), in the middle of Paris, so we can't just poison everyone in Paris.

So as of right now, since the primogen said I have to kill her, my plan is the following : get info on her, probably in England (I guess Mithras or some british elder might know about her ?), manage to get her someplace isolated, to not risk a masquerade breach, drive her to frenzy, probably by using malkavians, to prevent her from using presence, and throw everything at her (especially lupines) to just destroy her. All the while, use the tremere to do... stuff ? to prevent her from spying on us. They should have something, or at least, their chantry should be safe from spying, with all the protections they must have, right ? If not, I heard that lupines can do some stuff in the spirit world, so the may be able to prevent her to spy on us with her astral form, I guess (or at least hope).

I don't like placing that much of the plan in the hands of either the tremere, who are, well, tremere (after all, not trusting tremere is basically vampire 101), or in the lupines, but I don't have much choice here.