Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

How rare are the 4th Gens in modern nights?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • How rare are the 4th Gens in modern nights?

    Well, all 4th gens are very mystical and powerful because they're the direct childers of 3rd Gens and tend to be very old. So in CANNON setting, how rare are they in modern nights? I know you can throw as much as you desire in your own game, but it's not within my discussion.

    In my opinion Antediluvians may embrace many childers(hundreds of, maybe, we don't know how strict are they to select childers), but only few of them survive to be Elders or Methuselahs, and fewer survive the modern nights, needless to say those still active in vampire society...

    EDIT: ORIGINAL 4th Gens embraced by ORIGINAL Antes, so those who gain it by consuming are ignored.
    Last edited by Rock113; 09-11-2019, 08:45 AM.

  • #2
    I don't believe they will ever say... Part of the conspiracy is not knowing exactly who is pulling the threads. And this also depends on edition, as V5 tends to put the game in a more down-to-earth gritty setting, somewhat removing the visible presence of elders, the answer might be lower. In Dark Ages, you could expect a bit more.

    If I would guess, no more than 5. If we say that their creation is in biblical times which lasted tens of thousands of years, being in torpor for 3-5k years isn't a big deal for ancient beings. What is labelled as «History» only spans for about 5.5k years, so its possible some just leap over our current era.

    Comment


    • #3
      The last known embraced 4th gen are Gratiano de Veronese, Grimgroth and Augustus Giovanni. They are the most recent 4th gen ever embraced. Since them there have been no more embrace from the Antes.


      in the modern nights (just before V5) the active ones (* means in Torpor but "aware" and "influencing" its sourroundigs) were

      Japhet
      Lazarus
      Byzar
      Augustus Giovanni

      Kemintiri
      Nakhtorheb*
      Nefertiti

      Enkidu
      Rufus
      Odin
      The Slumbering Giant*

      Montano
      Gratiano
      Sybil
      Boukephos (died at the time of the East Coast Crusade if I recall correctly)

      The Plague Bride
      Nissiku
      The Word Eater
      Elimelech

      Gorgo
      Baba Yaga (died in 2000)
      Vassilissa

      Chandraputra (Presumed dead after the week of nightmare)
      Hazimel (Presumed dead after the week of nightmare)
      Ravana (Presumed dead after the week of nightmare)
      The Black mother (Presumed dead after the week of nightmare)

      Rayzeel (died in 2004 as of Time of Judgment, but since Time of Judgment has been superseded we can assume she is still alive)

      Alexandria
      Helena
      Iontius
      Mikhail (sort of, inside Ma-ri)

      Nergal*
      Ur-Sulgi
      Ma-Ri

      The Inner Council of Seven

      Ruthven (?)
      Kartarirya *
      Dracon * (in some ways)

      Mithras (sort of)
      Veddartha (still active in modern nights)
      Artemis Orthia (not sure, this was a plot hook from BJD)
      Nefer-Meri-Isis
      Erik Eigermann *

      Menele*


      So 42 (+ the Inner Council) that for sure were active somewhere between 1ed and V20.




      As for how they live... it depends.


      We have some macro groups


      1) Awake and ruling as god kings of old (Chandraputra, Mithras, the Inner Council and even Gratiano on some degree)

      2)Full social life, even if with false identities. These are the Meth who are quite involved in the every night life of their city and of the world of darkness, but do no share their true identity with the rest of the world. (Helena, Nefertiti, Alexandria, Iontius,Byzar, Rufus...)

      3) Very active, but also quite alien and detached from night to night society, most of them pursuing alien agenda or mystic paths, tends to be quite isolated and could turn into an eremite (Enkidu, Kemintiri, Lazarus,Montano, Elimelech, Nefer-Meri-Isis, Baba Yaga, Ur-Shulgi)

      4) Chtonic existence, active in modern nights but completely secretive and almost unseen, their action are there for the expert watchers who know what to look for, but rumors are more frequent than hard fact. (Nissiku, Vassilissa, Gorgo, Plague Bride, Odin,Sybil, Word Eater, Ma-Ri, Ruthven?)

      5)In Torpor but aware and directing things in their city or their clan (Nergal, Eigermann, The Slumbering Giant, Nakhtorheb, Menele,Kartarirya; Mikhail and Dracon on some degree?...)



      EDIT.
      EDIT: ORIGINAL 4th Gens embraced by ORIGINAL Antes, so those who gain it by consuming are ignored.


      The list is still valid, you just have to expunge Mithras, Helena, The Inner Council and Ma-Ri; the other vampires in the list are 4th gen embraced by one of the original (meaning, non Tremere and Augustus) founders.

      Still, it should be noted, that being respectively 3200, 3300 and 3700 years old, Mithras, Helena and Ma-Ri are virtually indistinguishable from "true" 4th gen.
      Just for example: while Lazarus is for sure a direct childe of Cappadocius, he was still a pup when Helena was already one of the most powerful Methuselah in the world.
      Last edited by Undead rabbit; 09-11-2019, 09:25 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        I thought Grimgroth was 5th generation when embraced? He wasn't one of the original Council of 7, right?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post

          Still, it should be noted, that being respectively 3200, 3300 and 3700 years old, Mithras, Helena and Ma-Ri are virtually indistinguishable from "true" 4th gen.
          Just for example: while Lazarus is for sure a direct childe of Cappadocius, he was still a pup when Helena was already one of the most powerful Methuselah in the world.
          Here i was thinking lazarus was as old as dirt. didn't he defeat 9000 year old caias coine in single combat? How did that happen?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
            I thought Grimgroth was 5th generation when embraced? He wasn't one of the original Council of 7, right?

            Blood Treachery heavily suggest that Tremere himself embraced him



            Scene 10
            Two red-masked entities communicate on the Astral
            Plane. The first bears the distinctive mien of the FORMER
            TREMERE. The second remains unknown.


            MYSTERIOUS PRESENCE: What was the matter,
            Councilor? You left Rome three years ago. Did you
            find these accommodations unsatisfactory also?

            FORMER TREMERE: No. Nothing was unsatisfactory
            with the chantry.

            MYSTERIOUS PRESENCE: Why is it, then,
            that I find myself holding this conversation with you?

            FORMER TREMERE: We needed neither the
            books nor the resources. There was nothing there that
            could not be replaced. Indeed, we kept no resource
            there that we do not maintain in a dozen places besides!

            MYSTERIOUS PRESENCE: And so you do not
            see the principle of the thing.

            FORMER TREMERE: Principle? No, I am afraid
            that I am indeed blind to the “principles” behind this
            slaughter. I have never understood—

            MYSTERIOUS PRESENCE: And you do not
            understand now. Still, I am not without mercy. I am
            offering you a chance.

            FORMER TREMERE: Your beneficence astounds
            me. What else were you going to do? Kill me? You did
            that 800 years ago.
            I have not yet fallen down.

            MYSTERIOUS PRESENCE: You would do well
            to mind your tongue with me, Councilor.

            FORMER TREMERE: I am not afraid anymore.
            Not of death. Not of you. I fear only that it is too late for
            me to appease the ghosts of the past and make this right.

            MYSTERIOUS PRESENCE: Yet that is precisely
            what I am offering you, Councilor.

            FORMER TREMERE: What do you mean?

            MYSTERIOUS PRESENCE: You will lead an
            assault on the wizards’ stronghold in London. Before
            you interrupt, let me explain. You may handle this affair
            in any fashion you see fit. If they surrender peacefully,
            you may feel free to offer them a chance to end these
            hostilities.

            FORMER TREMERE: And if they do not surrender?

            MYSTERIOUS PRESENCE: Then you are to take
            the location or destroy it. In any case, this battle will
            decide our stance for the remainder of this war. Congratulations,
            Councilor; you will be the only creature in
            history to decide the fate of the Order of Hermes twice
            in his lifetime. The first time, you laid it low. Mayhap
            this time you will raise it up from its deathly slumber.
            Now go.

            The FORMER TREMERE is dismissed, his Astral
            form receding from the MYSTERIOUS PRESENCE as
            though compelled beyond his power. A 2nd PRESENCE,
            veiled in the aether, steps out of Astral mists to present
            itself before the MYSTERIOUS PRESENCE. It’s mask
            is similar in design.


            2nd PRESENCE: Master, should we not monitor
            him? It is dangerous enough to give him leave to plan
            this matter himself.

            MYSTERIOUS PRESENCE: No. He will attend
            my will in this. He has to. He believes he can end this
            war. Perhaps he is right. I’ve no wish to waste resources
            on this inane conflict. His rebelliousness can be dealt
            with later, if at all. His honest hatred is far more valuable
            to me than one soul falsely devoted for every star
            in the sky.

            2nd PRESENCE: As you command, Master.

            MYSTERIOUS PRESENCE: One last thing, my
            valued companion.

            2nd PRESENCE: Yes, Master?

            MYSTERIOUS PRESENCE: Make the preparations
            to wake me, should all else fail.
            Darkness falls on the stage.


            Here i was thinking lazarus was as old as dirt. didn't he defeat 9000 year old caias coine in single combat? How did that happen?

            Lore of the Bloodlines

            Sutekh Fathers Anubis


            (Necromancy ••••, Serpentis ••••)
            Developed by Lazarus, and the principal reason for his
            victory over Clanmates sent to kill him
            , the Cainite with this power can change form into a monstrous, rotting jackal over seven feet from foot to shoulder blade. This Anubis
            form grants the vampire greater damage from her bite, the
            ability to travel faster than a human, an enhanced sense of
            smell, and the physical fortitude of a corpse infused with necromancy.
            System: The vampire spends one blood point and one
            Willpower, rolling Stamina + Occult (difficulty 7). The
            metamorphosis takes two turns. Clothing and small personal possessions transform with the vampire. The vampire
            remains in jackal form until the next dawn, unless she
            chooses to revert. Difficulty on all Perception rolls related
            to smell are reduced by two, and the jackal’s bite inflicts an
            additional two points of damage, without need to grapple.
            The form gains two dots in Dexterity, three dots in Brawl,
            three dots in Athletics, and benefits from the cadaver-like
            resilience bestowed by Gift of the Corpse (V20, p. 169.) Any of the vampire’s Disciplines can still be used in this form.
            This power costs 24 experience points to learn.
            Last edited by Undead rabbit; 09-11-2019, 05:47 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post


              Sutekh Fathers Anubis


              (Necromancy ••••, Serpentis ••••)
              Developed by Lazarus, and the principal reason for his
              victory over Clanmates sent to kill him
              , the Cainite with this power can change form into a monstrous, rotting jackal over seven feet from foot to shoulder blade. This Anubis
              form grants the vampire greater damage from her bite, the
              ability to travel faster than a human, an enhanced sense of
              smell, and the physical fortitude of a corpse infused with necromancy.
              System: The vampire spends one blood point and one
              Willpower, rolling Stamina + Occult (difficulty 7). The
              metamorphosis takes two turns. Clothing and small personal possessions transform with the vampire. The vampire
              remains in jackal form until the next dawn, unless she
              chooses to revert. Difficulty on all Perception rolls related
              to smell are reduced by two, and the jackal’s bite inflicts an
              additional two points of damage, without need to grapple.
              The form gains two dots in Dexterity, three dots in Brawl,
              three dots in Athletics, and benefits from the cadaver-like
              resilience bestowed by Gift of the Corpse (V20, p. 169.) Any of the vampire’s Disciplines can still be used in this form.
              This power costs 24 experience points to learn.








              You are like a living encyclopedia of WOD. Just something i have noticed about your posts lol. Seems like a powerful ability but still strange that a relatively young vampire defeated a vampire that should be Ur- Shulgi level in single combat.
              Last edited by blackshade; 09-11-2019, 05:56 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
                The last known embraced 4th gen are Gratiano de Veronese, Grimgroth and Augustus Giovanni.
                Thank you very much.

                And, well, do you think that an original 4th gens who has been thousands of years old will be almost unknown in modern nights?...

                Authorities seem to imply there are always some “big brothers” 4th gens behind the curtain. But... a vampire with this generation and age will be COMPLETELY unknown?...

                And, how many 4th gens who can date back to the Second City for sure? I summarize from your list:

                Vassilissa
                Baba Yaga
                Rayzeel
                Nergal*
                Ur-Sulgi
                Kartarirya*
                Dracon*

                Comment


                • #9
                  (Menele is dead as of the new CbN; I vaguely remember Rayzeel being dead as of BJD too, but my memory is hazier on that one.)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Rayzeel died in the original Gehenna timeline, but then so did everyone else. I don't think she has been mentioned in V5.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by blackshade View Post


                      You are like a living encyclopedia of WOD. Just something i have noticed about your posts lol. Seems like a powerful ability but still strange that a relatively young vampire defeated a vampire that should be Ur- Shulgi level in single combat.

                      Relatively young yes, but still a 4th gen, with access to level 9 disciplines, which can be quite the game breaker. Beside the combo is quite powerful in his own. Nevertheless most account seems to suggest that it was an hard victory, gained only through luck and the knowledge of Serpentis. Remember that Serpentis is quite good as combat discipline, Skin of the Adder let you soak with diff 5 and sum Fortitude + Stamina to soak agg. Adder's tongue gives you a powerful close combat weapon, and the higher level or Serpentis are quite crazy.

                      Most likely Lazarus mastered a discipline that Caias simply didn't know, getting a sufficient edge.


                      Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
                      Thank you very much.

                      And, well, do you think that an original 4th gens who has been thousands of years old will be almost unknown in modern nights?...

                      Authorities seem to imply there are always some “big brothers” 4th gens behind the curtain. But... a vampire with this generation and age will be COMPLETELY unknown?...

                      And, how many 4th gens who can date back to the Second City for sure? I summarize from your list:

                      Vassilissa
                      Baba Yaga
                      Rayzeel
                      Nergal*
                      Ur-Sulgi
                      Kartarirya*
                      Dracon*

                      Eh, this is really hard to say. Dates about the second city are the hardest to find.

                      In general I'd say (take this with quite the big grain of salt)


                      1)Most of the Tzimisce methuselah predates the second city. Kartarirya, Yorak and the Dracon for sure. Probably Demdeh (he was active when Sahara was green), Ruthven and Byelobog (they were already vampire before Demdeh was embraced . Can't say about Triglav

                      2) Among the Setites... I think only Nakhtorheb, since he came from the same tribe of Set. Sterpenre is suggested to be very very old and he might to belong the the human tribe of Set.
                      The Scorpion King died in 3100 B.C, so it is not unlikely that he may have been embraced at the time of the Second City.
                      Maybe Nephtys and Wadjet too, but there are no hard evidence here


                      3)As for the Cappadocians Caias and Japhet for sure were embraced at the time of the Second City.

                      4)Among the Ventrue... maybe Arakur, he was really really old. Arthemis Orthia for sure, since we are told she was the first the Ante embraced.


                      5) Montano is the oldest Lasombra we know about, and he is 3600 years old, so he wasn't for sure there at the time of the second city. Nevertheless we know that the Lasombra Antediluvian embraced many before him, but none was considered worthy of his attention. There were surely Lasombra involved in the assault of Nergal fortress at Manka-Sapir, but nothing of them has arrived to us.
                      The fact that the middle age Lasombra were not aware of Sybil, could suggest a very ancient embrace, but this is only an hypotesis.

                      6) For the Baali Nergal,Moloch, Ur-Shulgi and their followers.

                      7) Hard to say with the Malkavian. Nissiku and the Plague Bride are Sumerian, and Nissiku is from the Uruk, which was founded in 5000 B.c and had its zenith from 3800 to 3200, so he might qualify.

                      8) For the Nosferatu we must assume that every single 4th gen predates the return of Cain in the second city, and it is suggested that most Niktuku were embraced at the time of the First City

                      9) No recorded Gangrel at the time of the 2nd city. First gangrels seems to start flock at the time of Sumer. The oldest we have are Ereshkigal and Gilgaamesh. Nevertheless it seems that Ereshkigal and Gilgaamesh embrace must have happened to far from the times of the second city.

                      10) Obviously for the Brujah only Troile.

                      11) The Assamite had many, but the only named are Ur-Shulgi, Mancheaka and the Necromancer that lead the Sorcerer Cast together with Ur-Shulgi. But as of today there are no other 4th gen older than Ur-Shulgi.

                      12) The Ravnos seems pretty much old. We are told that he embraced 5 in the first two century of his existence, and given how much they were involved with the harappa civlizations they may qualify. So I'd say at least the first 3 : Hazimel, Black Mother and Chandraputra. An other story, the one that calls Dracian the Ravnos Ante, seems to suggest that he embraced after he left the Second City

                      13) Saulot... well... Nergal for sure. And many others since we know that at the time of the Second City the Salubri were among the main fighters in the war against the Baali. I'd say Samiel for sure.

                      14) No idea about the Toreador, the oldest we know it's Michael, and he is 4200 years old.



                      So, of the previous list...

                      Vassilissa
                      Gorgo
                      Baba Yaga
                      Nakhtorheb
                      Ur-Shulgi
                      Nergal
                      Orthia (???)
                      Kartaryria
                      Dracon
                      Yorak (???) (His death is... not clear. Especially after what we saw in BJD)
                      Japhet (Even if he has abbandoned his old vampiric form)
                      Maybe the Ravnos Meths
                      Probably Nissiku and the Plague Bride (probably)
                      Maybe maybe Ruthven, if we take in account the fact that he was already embraced when Demdeh was not.






                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
                        The last known embraced 4th gen are Gratiano de Veronese, Grimgroth and Augustus Giovanni. They are the most recent 4th gen ever embraced. Since them there have been no more embrace from the Antes.


                        in the modern nights (just before V5) the active ones (* means in Torpor but "aware" and "influencing" its sourroundigs) were

                        Japhet
                        Lazarus
                        Byzar
                        Augustus Giovanni

                        Kemintiri
                        Nakhtorheb*
                        Nefertiti

                        Enkidu
                        Rufus
                        Odin
                        The Slumbering Giant*

                        Montano
                        Gratiano
                        Sybil
                        Boukephos (died at the time of the East Coast Crusade if I recall correctly)

                        The Plague Bride
                        Nissiku
                        The Word Eater
                        Elimelech

                        Gorgo
                        Baba Yaga (died in 2000)
                        Vassilissa

                        Chandraputra (Presumed dead after the week of nightmare)
                        Hazimel (Presumed dead after the week of nightmare)
                        Ravana (Presumed dead after the week of nightmare)
                        The Black mother (Presumed dead after the week of nightmare)

                        Rayzeel (died in 2004 as of Time of Judgment, but since Time of Judgment has been superseded we can assume she is still alive)

                        Alexandria
                        Helena
                        Iontius
                        Mikhail (sort of, inside Ma-ri)

                        Nergal*
                        Ur-Sulgi
                        Ma-Ri

                        The Inner Council of Seven

                        Ruthven (?)
                        Kartarirya *
                        Dracon * (in some ways)

                        Mithras (sort of)
                        Veddartha (still active in modern nights)
                        Artemis Orthia (not sure, this was a plot hook from BJD)
                        Nefer-Meri-Isis
                        Erik Eigermann *

                        Menele*


                        So 42 (+ the Inner Council) that for sure were active somewhere between 1ed and V20.




                        As for how they live... it depends.


                        We have some macro groups


                        1) Awake and ruling as god kings of old (Chandraputra, Mithras, the Inner Council and even Gratiano on some degree)

                        2)Full social life, even if with false identities. These are the Meth who are quite involved in the every night life of their city and of the world of darkness, but do no share their true identity with the rest of the world. (Helena, Nefertiti, Alexandria, Iontius,Byzar, Rufus...)

                        3) Very active, but also quite alien and detached from night to night society, most of them pursuing alien agenda or mystic paths, tends to be quite isolated and could turn into an eremite (Enkidu, Kemintiri, Lazarus,Montano, Elimelech, Nefer-Meri-Isis, Baba Yaga, Ur-Shulgi)

                        4) Chtonic existence, active in modern nights but completely secretive and almost unseen, their action are there for the expert watchers who know what to look for, but rumors are more frequent than hard fact. (Nissiku, Vassilissa, Gorgo, Plague Bride, Odin,Sybil, Word Eater, Ma-Ri, Ruthven?)

                        5)In Torpor but aware and directing things in their city or their clan (Nergal, Eigermann, The Slumbering Giant, Nakhtorheb, Menele,Kartarirya; Mikhail and Dracon on some degree?...)



                        EDIT.


                        The list is still valid, you just have to expunge Mithras, Helena, The Inner Council and Ma-Ri; the other vampires in the list are 4th gen embraced by one of the original (meaning, non Tremere and Augustus) founders.

                        Still, it should be noted, that being respectively 3200, 3300 and 3700 years old, Mithras, Helena and Ma-Ri are virtually indistinguishable from "true" 4th gen.
                        Just for example: while Lazarus is for sure a direct childe of Cappadocius, he was still a pup when Helena was already one of the most powerful Methuselah in the world.
                        -Assamite-
                        + Anath, sire of Tegyrius, fate unknown, was active during the 4th century BC (probably in torpor)
                        + Sha'hiri, sire of Thetmes, sorcerer, fate unknown
                        + Abu Ilaf


                        -Brujah-
                        + Joshua, True Brujah, (fate unknown)
                        + Etherya
                        + Azif, diablerized to this generation, was in Jerusalen at the end of the 12th century
                        + Losario, sire of Adana de Sforza, which her being Sforza, means it was active during the 11th century around Milan/Mediolanum


                        -Cappadocian-
                        Japeth is a wraith (though a pretty active one on the skinlands)
                        Byzar is apparently "Byzas the Megarian" or took that name for himself he died as human around 500 BC, should still be in Byzantium/Constatinople/its actual name
                        + Humuusa, sire of Enheduanna, therefore this 4th generation was active around 2200 BC to embrace her or after this date to embrace someone who took such name


                        -Followers of Set-
                        + Maatkare
                        + Seterpenre
                        + Nebmaatsutekh, active during the war of princes IIRC (I'd ask Jacok Klunder to know more about him)
                        + Ta-urt, fate unknown
                        + Sobek, if the myths are to be believed


                        -Gangrel-
                        + Kurru, active during the beginning of the 13th century BC in Nubia


                        -Lasombra-
                        + "first mystic" (if it is not a myth)
                        Boukephos (yeah, he is assumed dead [that would be an interesting Sabbat game] as per Clan Novel Lasombra)
                        + Karotos (fate unknown, sire of Cleobolus, created by Bruce Baugh)


                        -Toreador-
                        *Alexandra as Prince of Buenos Aires, but apparently got beckoned in Camarilla V5 (assumed to be Callisti & Callisto and if you attempt to combine the VtES, she is also Inner Circle of the Camarilla)
                        *Mi-ka-il (as in Elamite, one of the only 6 language isolate in existence, not to be confused with eblaite) is technically Baali now (apparently?!)
                        + Nicholas the Younger (paramour unknown)
                        + Matthew Lubbock, sire of Christopher Houghton, active during the 17th century


                        -Ventrue-
                        * Artemis died in the Third Punic War

                        This are the ones I remember, there are many more.

                        - Saga
                        Last edited by Saga; 09-12-2019, 08:27 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hell of rare - so much so that in my version of VtM most of the canon methuselahs are actually 8th-7th gens with a very few of them being 6th or 5th gen.

                          I would have to recheck my notes to confirm, but i think Kemintiri is the only stated 4th gen canon NPC that actually stayed so....
                          Last edited by Baaldam; 09-13-2019, 09:21 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Rock113

                            Answer: approximately 273.

                            Let's begin with a wild guess based on what we know about vampire society and culture. For an ancient vampire, having between one and two dozen surviving childer at any time seems reasonable. That's roughly a dozen or two surviving 4th gen for each Antedeluvian line, plus a few from various other origins. So, somewhere between 156 and 312 vampires, total. That's an extremely wild guesstimate, but gives us a range for what a reasonable answer would be.

                            This includes:
                            • Those embraced directly (by their ante) who survive and are active in these nights.
                            • Those embraced directly who are in torpor or otherwise off the streets.
                            • Those embraced by someone who diablerized an original member of the 3rd gen, or who diablerized one of these childer.
                            • Those who share an origin different from traditional Cainites, such as the founder of the Bonsam, though this is small to the point of being a rounding error.
                            • Those who diablerized one of the above, and are active or inactive.
                            Mathematically, let's say, at a rough guesstimate....
                            • A western population of 5.2 billion (7.53 billion world pop, minus East and Southeast Asia).
                            • Two-thirds of that is urban or urbanish, so 3.5 billion living in places where Western (European, West Asian, South Asian, and African) vampires predominate.
                            • Roughly one vampire per 50000, for a vampiric population of 70000.
                            • Most vampires in modern nights are of the 11th gen or weaker. (V20, p29)
                            • If the median generation is between 10th and 11th, there are 35000 of 11th and weaker, and 35000 of 10th gen or stronger.
                            So, there are about 35000 vampires between the fourth and tenth gen, inclusive. But how are they distributed?

                            If evenly distributed, that's 5000 in each of those seven generations. But, an even distribution seems unlikely, and doesn't fit with what we know about the setting.

                            So, what if each generation has about half the population of what the next stronger gen has? That is to say, we assume that the average vampire of tenth gen or higher has an average of 2 surviving childer at any time... though there is tremendous variation across the generations, and it is reasonable to assume the strongest have the most childer.

                            As a simple one variable equation:

                            Fourth gen population = 1x.
                            Fifth gen = 2x
                            Sixth gen = 4x
                            Seventh gen = 8x
                            Eighth gen = 16x
                            Ninth gen = 32x
                            Tenth gen = 64x

                            Solving for 1x+2x+4x+8x+16x+32x+64x=35000 -> 128x=35000 -> x=273 approx.

                            So, the population would be:
                            Fourth gen population = 1x = 273
                            Fifth gen = 2x = 546
                            Sixth gen = 4x= 1093
                            Seventh gen = 8x = 2187
                            Eighth gen = 16x = 4375
                            Ninth gen = 32x = 8750
                            Tenth gen = 64x = 17500

                            This seems to fit within my wild guess of between 156 and 312 fourth gens.

                            Note: I know this is based on some vast oversimplifications on my part. The actual result depends on several factors: human population "belonging" to western vampires, vampire to human ratio, and a single, small quote in V20. It is, however, my best guess.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              So the full list of 4th Cainite childer of Antediluvians who did not met final death would be:

                              -Assamite-
                              ur-Shulgi
                              Anath
                              Sha'hiri
                              Weeping Master
                              Abu Ilaf

                              -Baali-
                              Nergal/Shaitan
                              Moloch
                              The Unnamed

                              -Brujah-
                              Joshua
                              Etherya
                              Menele
                              Losario
                              Hannibal

                              -Caitiff-
                              Abdallah

                              -Cappadocian-
                              Lazarus
                              Humuusa
                              Byzar

                              -Children of Osiris-
                              Asar/Osiris

                              -Followers of Set-
                              Nakhthorheb
                              Seterpenre
                              Maatkare
                              Nebmaatsutekh
                              Ta-urt
                              Sobek
                              Kemintiri
                              Nefertiti

                              -Gangrel-
                              The Slumbering Giant
                              Kurru
                              All-High
                              Vola the Red
                              Hukros

                              -Lasombra-
                              Montano
                              Gratiano de Veronese
                              Karotos
                              Sybil
                              Tersa
                              Blue Eye

                              -Malkavian-
                              Plague Bride
                              Nissiku
                              The Eater
                              Panehesy
                              Lerterimas
                              Brahina
                              Lamdiel

                              -Nosferatu-
                              Yima
                              The Matriarch
                              Vasilisa
                              Melachoate
                              Illuyankas
                              Gayomart

                              -Ravnos-
                              Marizhavashti Kali/Black Mother
                              Rakshasa/Hazimel
                              Chandraputra
                              Ramessu
                              Ravana (though not a Cainite anymore)

                              -Salubri-
                              Rayzeel
                              Zao-zei
                              Zao-xue
                              Nahum ben Enosh
                              Hrorsh

                              -Toreador-
                              Callisti & Callisto
                              Iontius
                              Matthew Lubbock

                              -Tzimisce-
                              Dracon
                              Kartarirya
                              Demdemeh
                              Ruthven (most probably Lambach)
                              Djavakhi
                              Ionache

                              -Ventrue-
                              Balthazar
                              Tinia
                              Nefer-meri-Isis
                              Erik Eigermann
                              Maltheas

                              - Saga
                              Last edited by Saga; 09-13-2019, 04:23 PM.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X