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How rare are the 4th Gens in modern nights?

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  • #16
    Helena isn't a childe of an antediluvian (she ate her Sire) and those Ravnos might not have survived the Week (though that's not entirely clear from BJD).

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Saga View Post
      So the full list of 4th Cainite childer of Antediluvians who did not met final death would be:

      -Assamite-
      ur-Shulgi
      Anath
      Sha'hiri
      Weeping Master
      Abu Ilaf

      -Baali-
      Nergal/Shaitan
      Moloch
      The Unnamed

      -Brujah-
      Joshua
      Etherya
      Menele
      Losario
      Hannibal

      -Caitiff-
      Abdallah

      -Cappadocian-
      Lazarus
      Humuusa
      Byzar

      -Children of Osiris-
      Asar/Osiris

      -Followers of Set-
      Nakhthorheb
      Seterpenre
      Maatkare
      Nebmaatsutekh
      Ta-urt
      Sobek
      Kemintiri
      Nefertiti

      -Gangrel-
      The Slumbering Giant
      Kurru
      All-High
      Vola the Red
      Hukros

      -Lasombra-
      Montano
      Gratiano de Veronese
      Karotos
      Sybil
      Tersa
      Blue Eye

      -Malkavian-
      Plague Bride
      Nissiku
      The Eater
      Panehesy
      Lerterimas
      Brahina
      Lamdiel

      -Nosferatu-
      Yima
      The Matriarch
      Vasilisa
      Melachoate
      Illuyankas
      Gayomart

      -Ravnos-
      Marizhavashti Kali/Black Mother
      Rakshasa/Hazimel
      Chandraputra
      Ramessu
      Ravana (though not a Cainite anymore)

      -Salubri-
      Rayzeel
      Zao-zei
      Zao-xue
      Nahum ben Enosh
      Hrorsh

      -Toreador-
      Callisti & Callisto
      Iontius
      Helena
      Matthew Lubbock

      -Tzimisce-
      Dracon
      Kartarirya
      Demdemeh
      Ruthven (most probably Lambach)
      Djavakhi
      Ionache

      -Ventrue-
      Balthazar
      Tinia
      Nefer-meri-Isis
      Erik Eigermann
      Maltheas

      - Saga

      Most of these fall under the category fate unknown. Could be alive or could be dead. But Sha'hiri caught my eye in your list. Didn't he commit ritual suicide by Jamal's hand?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Draconis View Post
        Helena isn't a childe of an antediluvian (she ate her Sire) and those Ravnos might not have survived the Week (though that's not entirely clear from BJD).

        True, just edited it. Thanks

        - Saga

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        • #19
          Originally posted by blackshade View Post


          Most of these fall under the category fate unknown. Could be alive or could be dead. But Sha'hiri caught my eye in your list. Didn't he commit ritual suicide by Jamal's hand?

          The one that was Eldest during the Curse was the vizier Nakurtum who took the seat after Sha'hiri.

          - Saga

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
            The list is still valid, you just have to expunge Mithras, Helena, The Inner Council and Ma-Ri; the other vampires in the list are 4th gen embraced by one of the original (meaning, non Tremere and Augustus) founders.
            Mithras always was quite explicitly the childe of the Ventrue antediluvian. How explicitly?

            Originally posted by London by Night
            Sire: Ventrue Antediluvian
            That explicitly.

            Which highlights one of the problems with the game background of Vampire: the Masquerade, which is that it was never properly curated, which creates all kinds of issues for any reader who wants consistency...


            Learn more about the hidden history of the British Isles in England Will Burn.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by James_Willoughby View Post

              Mithras always was quite explicitly the childe of the Ventrue antediluvian. How explicitly?



              That explicitly.

              Which highlights one of the problems with the game background of Vampire: the Masquerade, which is that it was never properly curated, which creates all kinds of issues for any reader who wants consistency...


              That assertion has been put in question several times and currently it is very not explicit. At this moment Mithras lineage is mysterious.


              Mithras was flagged as childe of the Ante in London by Night, but in Road of Kings he is just the childe of Veddartha, this is stated also in World of Darkness 2nd edition.




              In times of Thin Blood (page 64-65) we have an account that doesn't suggest that Veddartha was a 3d gen but actually a 4th gen, since he is a member of the Inconnu and still active in the modern nights.

              This is a letter from a Methuselah of the Inconnu to a friend of his.
              Veddartha tells me the clanless are best ignored, left as a sort of appetizer for the feast of ages… They can slake
              and slow the terrible thirst of the Ancients, and at little cost to our reserves of strength and wisdom. I must confess
              my disagreement, but you know I am a confi rmed Noddist and can never help going over the prophecies in my spare
              moments.

              In Transylvania Chronicle 2 we have Maltheas, monitor of the Inconnu, and childe of Veddartha, and he is a 5th gen.

              MALTHEAS (METHUSELAH
              MONITOR OF THE INCONNU)
              5th generation Ventrue, childe of Veddartha
              Nature: Innovator
              Demeanor: Judge
              Embrace: 554
              Apparent Age: mid 30s



              In V20 Dark Ages a Mithraist Ventrue wrote a lettere to Cretheus about the fights that the Ventrue Clan is facing on the internal front, from one lineage to the other.


              To my blood elder Cretheus, First Senator of Rome


              It is with humility I write, and trust this letter reaches you seal unbroken. The messenger is a
              most honored Leo. Please return her unharmed.
              Not long after my Embrace, my sire remarked that our line is one of titans. I retorted that surely all
              Ventrue must be gods, foolishly believing flattery might endear him. For the affront, I became subject
              to his chastisement. As thrall, he forced me to humiliation and education. He willed it so, and I
              learned. After five decades in slavery, he took me in arms once more. The titans fought the gods, said
              he. Those who call themselves Ventrue fight their masters. We fight gods, and wrest power from their
              grasp. There is only one god worthy of the titans’ worship, and he is Mithras.
              Until now, our Clan’s pact of titans against gods remained in place despite Arakur’s chaos.
              The new wars between our lineages imply an awakening. The gods rise. Antasians battle the
              Gaul’s dreamers. We war with Alexander’s Triumvirate. The rival lineages of Tinia, Artemis
              Orthia, and Medon grow in strength. We believed Hardestadt free, but activity within the Fiefdoms
              of the Black Cross implies the influence of his sire, who we believed destroyed. Our power
              was through unification. I fear the Clan is provoked to war from beyond.
              Mithras gives guidance. He commands all must look to him, if we are to survive his fellow
              gods’ wrath. We must protect the titans from themselves, and force the gods into the Unconquered
              Sun’s light. It is the path with which I tutor the loyal Praetorians, and it is how I urge
              you to stabilize Rome before Camillus places it in Veddartha’s grip. Mithras sees the master’s
              hand, and wishes it cut off.

              We start in Rome, and in Avalon, and from there take Mithras’ word to our fellow titans.
              Unified under Mithras we might stave off the gods.
              With sincerest respect,
              Arcadius Pater, Consul of Aquae Sulis
              Childe of Marcus Verus, Baron of Deva Victrix
              Grandchilde of the God-Emperor Mithras, Unconquered Sun,
              Prince of Londinium and the Baronies of Avalon, Progenitor of our Line

              In this letter Veddartha seems to be another Methuselah behind the scene in europe. Most important it is common knowledge that the Ventrue Ante should be dead for a long long time, and this letter has been written in the XIII century CE.


              Even more, in V20 the writers decided that what was written about Veddartha was not a mistake, but something that could be retconned.

              Beckett speask of Veddartha as an elusive ancient writer, not as a Ante.


              The books I claimed from Vykos’ library were not entirely useless. One is an
              incomplete manuscript written in a Dacian language. According to Vykos’ helpful
              notes, it’s written by the elusive vampire Veddartha. Of greatest interest is its coverage
              of the upper limits of generational expansion.
              In the end of the London Chapter of BJD they decide non to close the matter and leave us with the most mysterious piece about Mithras lineage, leaving the whole plot open: Veddartha might be the Antediluvian, or he might be not. That's open to the reader interpretation.



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              • #22
                Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post


                The Inner Council of Seven
                That is wrong. Members like Elaine de Calinot sired six-generation vampires and cannot have been Embraced as 4th Gens.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by blackshade View Post


                  But Sha'hiri caught my eye in your list. Didn't he commit ritual suicide by Jamal's hand?
                  Its unclear who was the Eldest at the time.

                  In the middle age ,or at least until 1197, Sha'iri was the Eldest of the Clan, and sometimes later (1224) Nakurtum took his place (he was still alive at the time, the passage was not violent).


                  But then again Nakurtum was a woman and the account about the eldest at the time of Tyre in Lore of the Clans and Clanbook Assamite Revised are about a "he". So at some point Nakurtum must have passed the scepter, either to Sha'iri either to another Assamite, older than her but male.


                  Besides Between Nakurtum arrival and the Treaty of Tyre 250 years have passed, and many things could happen in such a time lenght.
                  At the time Nakurtum and the Viziers were the most diplomatic, and it would seem strange that Nakurtum backed the web of knives actions in europe at the time of the Anarch Revolt.
                  Nevertheless in Player's Guide to the Low Clan we learn that the Warrior Caste was pushing against Nakurtum authority, and that in 1230 violence was escalating quickly, with a Vizier being assassinated in the halls of Alamut by a Warrior. The whole thing was seen as pivotal in define the stance that the Clan would have assumed about the other Cainites, (this especially because the murdered Vizier, Gaffari, was a proponent of peace, while murderer, the warrior Athiwaqrat was a staunch proponent of the Road of Blood).
                  It might be that at some point between 1230 and 1480 the warrior caste might have succeed in ousting Nakurtum as the Eldest. For sure the elders were attempting so: "Dissatisfied elders have secretly sent childer to seek out an Assamite with seniority to Nakurtum who they can rouse and install as Eldest".
                  Last edited by Undead rabbit; 09-14-2019, 09:48 AM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Rasetra View Post

                    That is wrong. Members like Elaine de Calinot sired six-generation vampires and cannot have been Embraced as 4th Gens.

                    Embraced no. Elevated through diablerie? Most likely. When I wrote the first list it wasnt clear that the request was only about "original" 4th gen.
                    Etrius and Goratrix too have several childe who are sixth generation vampires, since when they auto-embraced themselves they were 5th gen.


                    By the way, take everything about De Calinot with a grain of salt. Her only known childe, Edward Bainbridge, was a 7th generation vampire, and yet his children, Emma Blake, was a 9th generation.
                    It is clear that quite the confusion was made along the road.
                    Last edited by Undead rabbit; 09-14-2019, 09:43 AM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post



                      That assertion has been put in question several times and currently it is very not explicit. At this moment Mithras lineage is mysterious.


                      Mithras was flagged as childe of the Ante in London by Night, but in Road of Kings he is just the childe of Veddartha, this is stated also in World of Darkness 2nd edition.




                      In times of Thin Blood (page 64-65) we have an account that doesn't suggest that Veddartha was a 3d gen but actually a 4th gen, since he is a member of the Inconnu and still active in the modern nights.

                      This is a letter from a Methuselah of the Inconnu to a friend of his.



                      In Transylvania Chronicle 2 we have Maltheas, monitor of the Inconnu, and childe of Veddartha, and he is a 5th gen.






                      In V20 Dark Ages a Mithraist Ventrue wrote a lettere to Cretheus about the fights that the Ventrue Clan is facing on the internal front, from one lineage to the other.




                      In this letter Veddartha seems to be another Methuselah behind the scene in europe. Most important it is common knowledge that the Ventrue Ante should be dead for a long long time, and this letter has been written in the XIII century CE.


                      Even more, in V20 the writers decided that what was written about Veddartha was not a mistake, but something that could be retconned.

                      Beckett speask of Veddartha as an elusive ancient writer, not as a Ante.




                      In the end of the London Chapter of BJD they decide non to close the matter and leave us with the most mysterious piece about Mithras lineage, leaving the whole plot open: Veddartha might be the Antediluvian, or he might be not. That's open to the reader interpretation.



                      Veddartha not being the Antediluvian was an issue of a lot of ongoing debate in the old forums. Maltheas from Transylvania Chronicles II was the cause of it. The thing is in such book generations in the NPC section are what the Cainite claims to be, not the real ones Hardestadt "the Younger" (which is his childe) is post Tyler diablerie of the elder, and Maltheas being 5th and childe of Veddartha is also false since in pg. 67 it explains that he poses as Cainite of a "much younger generation" so his generation should be 4th. Now this rises even more questions, because that would mean that Veddartha the Ventrue Antediluvian was active around the 6th century AD somewhere to embrace him, Matheas being the youngest childer he has.

                      On Mithras BJD fragment I believe the intention of it is that they know their entire lineage including the 2nd generation grandsire, its a Ventrue thing to do. Alexander Princeps Lutetia also claims his sire being Veddartha the Ventrue Antediluvian in the DA novels as him being the first childe of Enoch.

                      If V20 changed that, which is most probable since they took a lot of liberties and chose to ignore or rewrite much of what was canon for those 20 years prior its release.

                      - Saga

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                      • #26
                        I suspect - inasmuch as 'canon' exists - you had relatively few true 4th generation just as there were few 3rd. They might have been more numerous in ancient times but various factors whittled them down. That said, it's far from ironclad. Just as in 'Gehenna' we learn there may be other 3rd generation who were just lurking around waiting, you might have 'unknown' 4th generation. Part of me suspects hypothetical figures like the 'Stoneman' or possible bloodline progenitors can justify that sort of thing - perhaps ancient vampire wars engaged in the same 'mass-embrace' tactics that were relatively common in Modern Nights and some of that 4th generation 'cannon fodder' survived. Or you may have a 'active' 3rd Gen Vampire who makes 4th generation childer for various purposes (agents, such as Nosferatu allegedly did. Or a food source. Perhaps such 4th generation contrive escape somehow.

                        Failing that, there's always blood magic of some kind (such as the Ritual of the Bitter Rose) assuming you don't mind diablerie and can find enough low-generation vampires to reach that threshold. Or consider high level Protean disciplines like Draught of Phoenix Blood and Dual Form. In the case of the first maybe a number of the 3rd generation who were slaughtered 'reincarnated' as 4th generation (another source of certain legends, bloodlines, etc.) whilst others may have been a product of Dual Form (such as like was speculated with Karsh by some, I believe.)

                        Numerically a few hundreds is probably a viable upper (but not absolute) limit. And again you could explain it any number of ways.
                        Last edited by Mister_Dunpeal; 09-14-2019, 11:25 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Active? Relatively rare. Most of the awake 4th gens have been Beckoned. The rest are in long term torpor either from injury or age (the older the vampire the longer their stints in torpor become, either due to a lack of humanity or intentional to stave off boredom).

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Mister_Dunpeal View Post
                            I suspect - inasmuch as 'canon' exists - you had relatively few true 4th generation just as there were few 3rd. They might have been more numerous in ancient times but various factors whittled them down. That said, it's far from ironclad. Just as in 'Gehenna' we learn there may be other 3rd generation who were just lurking around waiting, you might have 'unknown' 4th generation. Part of me suspects hypothetical figures like the 'Stoneman' or possible bloodline progenitors can justify that sort of thing - perhaps ancient vampire wars engaged in the same 'mass-embrace' tactics that were relatively common in Modern Nights and some of that 4th generation 'cannon fodder' survived. Or you may have a 'active' 3rd Gen Vampire who makes 4th generation childer for various purposes (agents, such as Nosferatu allegedly did. Or a food source. Perhaps such 4th generation contrive escape somehow.

                            Failing that, there's always blood magic of some kind (such as the Ritual of the Bitter Rose) assuming you don't mind diablerie and can find enough low-generation vampires to reach that threshold. Or consider high level Protean disciplines like Draught of Phoenix Blood and Dual Form. In the case of the first maybe a number of the 3rd generation who were slaughtered 'reincarnated' as 4th generation (another source of certain legends, bloodlines, etc.) whilst others may have been a product of Dual Form (such as like was speculated with Karsh by some, I believe.)

                            Numerically a few hundreds is probably a viable upper (but not absolute) limit. And again you could explain it any number of ways.
                            I believe that the intention of the Drowned Legacies is exactly that, the lineages of those unknown Antediluvians.

                            - Saga

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                            • #29
                              Tubal Cain -Tū́ḇal Qáyin- is a Lasombra fourth generation mentioned in the Bible, Genesis 4:22, and the Book of Jasher as the mortal great-great-great-great grandson of Caine. It also counts Irad and Enoch among his forebears.

                              Esperanza Lucifer the first was embraced between 1654 and 1666 by something described as "The Ancient" and "a Lasombra of great age" The description of her embrace -the ancient bargaining for her consent- is pretty similar to the Antediluvians practice. There are no stats for her her, but her childe is 5th generation.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Trollroot View Post
                                Tubal Cain -Tū́ḇal Qáyin- is a Lasombra fourth generation mentioned in the Bible, Genesis 4:22, and the Book of Jasher as the mortal great-great-great-great grandson of Caine. It also counts Irad and Enoch among his forebears.

                                Esperanza Lucifer the first was embraced between 1654 and 1666 by something described as "The Ancient" and "a Lasombra of great age" The description of her embrace -the ancient bargaining for her consent- is pretty similar to the Antediluvians practice. There are no stats for her her, but her childe is 5th generation.

                                Tubalcain is mentioned as an example of a high level discipline power in Dark Ages Vampire IIRC, but beyond such mention, there is no mention of him ever again.

                                I remember the creation process of Esperanza Lucifer in open development, its sire I believe it was intended to be [Lasombra] but then generation changed and it is believed that Esperanza Lucifer the Younger diablerized a childe of Mithras,

                                - Saga

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