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How rare are the 4th Gens in modern nights?

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  • Rock113
    started a topic How rare are the 4th Gens in modern nights?

    How rare are the 4th Gens in modern nights?

    Well, all 4th gens are very mystical and powerful because they're the direct childers of 3rd Gens and tend to be very old. So in CANNON setting, how rare are they in modern nights? I know you can throw as much as you desire in your own game, but it's not within my discussion.

    In my opinion Antediluvians may embrace many childers(hundreds of, maybe, we don't know how strict are they to select childers), but only few of them survive to be Elders or Methuselahs, and fewer survive the modern nights, needless to say those still active in vampire society...

    EDIT: ORIGINAL 4th Gens embraced by ORIGINAL Antes, so those who gain it by consuming are ignored.
    Last edited by Rock113; 09-11-2019, 08:45 AM.

  • Saga
    replied
    Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
    We don’t know how many true powerful Methuselahs—monsters like Ur-Shulgi or Vasilia who hail from Second or even First City—exist, maybe these statted are just the tip of the iceberg.

    And I always think Beckoning is the Avatar Storm of Vampires, making most badass imprisoned, leaving chicken on earth, that’s it.

    Actually we do, though there could be more of unknown around. Those from at least the Second City are:

    -Assamite-
    ur-Shulgi
    Anath

    -Baali-
    Nergal
    Moloch
    "the unnamed"

    -Brujah-
    Joshua (true)
    Etherya

    -Followers of Set-
    Nakhthorheb
    Seterpenre
    Maatkare

    -Malkavian-
    The Plague-Bride
    Nissiku
    The Eater

    -Nosferatu-
    The Matriarch
    Vasilisa

    -Ravnos-
    Marishavasti Kali/Black Mother
    Rakshasa/Hazimel
    Chandraputra
    Ravana (inapplicable, he is a Yama King now)
    Ramessu

    -Salubri-
    Rayzeel

    -Toreador-
    Amarantha

    -Tzimisce-
    Dracon
    Katrarirya
    Demdemeh

    This are the Cainites who remember the times of the Second City.

    -Saga

    Leave a comment:


  • Rock113
    replied
    Originally posted by Riccardo View Post

    I think the Recall has been invented to get rid of the oldest, anachronistic, uberpowerful vampires.

    IMHO everyone who's 6th or less should be recalled in that darkest recess of bad things called the 90ies.
    We don’t know how many true powerful Methuselahs—monsters like Ur-Shulgi or Vasilia who hail from Second or even First City—exist, maybe these statted are just the tip of the iceberg.

    And I always think Beckoning is the Avatar Storm of Vampires, making most badass imprisoned, leaving chicken on earth, that’s it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Riccardo
    replied
    Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
    In my opinion Antediluvians may embrace many childers(hundreds of, maybe, we don't know how strict are they to select childers), but only few of them survive to be Elders or Methuselahs, and fewer survive the modern nights, needless to say those still active in vampire society...
    I think the Recall has been invented to get rid of the oldest, anachronistic, uberpowerful vampires.

    IMHO everyone who's 6th or less should be recalled in that darkest recess of bad things called the 90ies.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rock113
    replied
    Originally posted by Saga View Post

    Here they are.

    Rayzeel
    {F} Childe of Saulot. Embrace unknown. Killed by Okulos, Qalat'at Sherqat, Iraq, 2004.
    Sire of Agathodaimon.
    [Cb-Sa, pg. 64] [V20VtDA, pg. 352] [GTFN, pg. 290]


    "Samiel"
    {M} Childe of Saulot. Embrace unknown. First Salubri warrior. Killed by The Eldest.
    Sire of Ezrael, Ithuriel, Qawiyya el-Ghaduba (636).
    [DAC, pg. 174] [LS2-KotW, pg. 34] [Cb-Sa, pg. 15] [DA: RoH, pg. 92] [Cb-TzR, pg. 14] [EV, pg. 147]


    Mokur
    {M} Childe of Saulot. Embrace unknown. Diablerized by Etrius.
    [LotH, pg. 16]


    Yavok
    {M} Childe of Saulot. Embrace unknown. Warrior caste.
    Sire of Javaniel.
    [TC2-SotD, pg. 84]


    Zao-zei
    {F} Childe of Saulot. Embrace unknown.
    [WftE, pg. 19, pg. 54] [V20, pg. 438]


    Zao-xue
    {M} Childe of Saulot. Embrace unknown.
    [WftE, pg. 54] [V20, pg. 438]


    Nahum ben Enosh
    {M} Childe of Saulot. Embraced in 216. Participant at the Diet of Olives.
    [JbN, pg. 98] [DA: E, pg. 179]


    Hrorsh
    {?} Childe of Saulot. Embrace unknown.
    Sire of Simeon.
    [Cb-Sa, pg. 40]

    - Saga
    Thanks. You are excellent!

    Leave a comment:


  • Saga
    replied
    Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
    Hey guys, thank you very much, and do you know where is the information of this one?

    Sorry, but...
    1. Do you know more original 4th Gens Salubri?

    I think Salubri may have the fewest 4th Gens because Tremere wipe out most of them... is it a big news when a 4th Gens Salubri appear on public?

    2. Do you know more details about the Seven of Salubri? I don’t know if that Warrior in Inocouu be counted...
    Here they are.

    Rayzeel
    {F} Childe of Saulot. Embrace unknown. Killed by Okulos, Qalat'at Sherqat, Iraq, 2004.
    Sire of Agathodaimon.
    [Cb-Sa, pg. 64] [V20VtDA, pg. 352] [GTFN, pg. 290]


    "Samiel"
    {M} Childe of Saulot. Embrace unknown. First Salubri warrior. Killed by The Eldest.
    Sire of Ezrael, Ithuriel, Qawiyya el-Ghaduba (636).
    [DAC, pg. 174] [LS2-KotW, pg. 34] [Cb-Sa, pg. 15] [DA: RoH, pg. 92] [Cb-TzR, pg. 14] [EV, pg. 147]


    Mokur
    {M} Childe of Saulot. Embrace unknown. Diablerized by Etrius.
    [LotH, pg. 16]


    Yavok
    {M} Childe of Saulot. Embrace unknown. Warrior caste.
    Sire of Javaniel.
    [TC2-SotD, pg. 84]


    Zao-zei
    {F} Childe of Saulot. Embrace unknown.
    [WftE, pg. 19, pg. 54] [V20, pg. 438]


    Zao-xue
    {M} Childe of Saulot. Embrace unknown.
    [WftE, pg. 54] [V20, pg. 438]


    Nahum ben Enosh
    {M} Childe of Saulot. Embraced in 216. Participant at the Diet of Olives.
    [JbN, pg. 98] [DA: E, pg. 179]


    Hrorsh
    {?} Childe of Saulot. Embrace unknown.
    Sire of Simeon.
    [Cb-Sa, pg. 40]

    - Saga

    Leave a comment:


  • Rock113
    replied
    Originally posted by Saga View Post
    -Salubri-
    Hrorsh
    Hey guys, thank you very much, and do you know where is the information of this one?

    Sorry, but...
    1. Do you know more original 4th Gens Salubri?

    I think Salubri may have the fewest 4th Gens because Tremere wipe out most of them... is it a big news when a 4th Gens Salubri appear on public?

    2. Do you know more details about the Seven of Salubri? I don’t know if that Warrior in Inocouu be counted...

    Leave a comment:


  • Baaldam
    replied
    Originally posted by Saga View Post


    Sorry, double post and I can't delete this one

    - Saga
    No problem. Well, good list there. It also makes good fodder for people not to be too quick extrapolating a NPC's sire or childe generation from what is in the sheet.

    Not to mention the whole "is Mithras a childe of the Ventrue ante or a diablerist brazenly proclaiming a false pedigree among kindred, just like he brazenly proclaims godhood - sun godhood to boot - amonng a number of mortals?" controversy, that i utterly love since it reared its head in Transylvanian Chronicles with Maltheas.
    Last edited by Baaldam; 09-16-2019, 11:50 PM.

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  • Saga
    replied
    Originally posted by Baaldam View Post


    Well, not what i was looking for - i was in it just to answer a "how could a sire be two generations away of its own childe" question, so to speak.
    But at least now i know some novels' stuff i was not aware of.

    Well, the known cases of generation raised through diablerie are:

    -Assamite-
    - Habiba al-Sikkeen <7th-6th>
    - Monty Coven <11th-6th>
    - Tariq <?-5th-13th>

    -Baali-
    Mari the Black <7th-4th>

    -Brujah-
    - Azif <6th-4th>
    - Tyler <8th-7th-6th>
    - Felipe <8th-7th>
    - Ecaterina the Wise <8th-7th>
    - Lord Aaron Wesley Wilkshire <9th-7th>
    - Leslie Taylor <8th-7th>
    - Wah Chun Yuen <?-9th>
    - Pierre Bellemare <12th-9th>
    - Herbert Westin <11th-10th>
    - Velvet <12th-11th>

    -Caitiff-
    - Count Zaroff <?-10th>
    - Gordon Keaton <12th-10th>
    - Turk <13th-12th>

    -Cappadocian-
    - Claudius Giovanni <5th-4th> (this one is questionable)
    - Ambrogino Giovanni <6th-5th>
    - Francis Milliner <9th-8th>

    -Followers of Set-
    - Sarrasine <7th-6th>
    - Izzat al-Khunzir <7th-6th>
    - Ezuli <7th-6th>
    - Ezekiel <9th-8th>

    -Gangrel-
    - Mictantecle <5th-4th>
    - Canis <?-6th>
    - Qarakh <8th-7th-?>
    - Ryder <?-7th>
    - Sebastien Goulet <8th-7th>

    -Lasombra-
    - Narses <7th-6th>
    - Guilelmo Aliprando <7th-6th>
    - Monçada <7th-6th>
    - Ismael <9th-7th>
    - Percival <10th-7th>
    - Virginie <12th-8th>
    - Julius Sutphen <10th-9th>
    - Rodrigo Toca <11th-10th>
    - Andrew Emory <11th-?>
    - Angelica Shawn <12th-11th>

    -Malkavian-
    - Octavio <7th-6th>
    - Roque <7th-6th>
    - Anatole <10th-9th-8th-6th>
    - Abraham Mellon <7th-6th>
    - Aleister Crowley <7th-6th>
    - J. Oswald Hyde / White <8th-7th>
    - Dabir al-Hakim <9th-8th>
    - Quentin King III <9th-8th>
    - Carter Vanderweyden <10th-9th>

    -Nosferatu-
    - Aine <7th-6th>
    - Julio Martinez <7th-6th>
    - Kurt Densch <8th-7th>
    - Christanius Lionel <11th-7th>
    - Tommy <?-7th>
    - Frank Litzpar <11th-10th>

    -Ravnos-
    - Ghivran Dalaal <10th-9th>
    - Sanjan Chakravarti <11th-10th>

    -Toreador-
    - Helena <5th-4th>
    - Sophoniba <7th-6th>
    - Madame Guil <7th-6th>

    -Tremere-
    - Etrius <5th-4th>
    - Goratrix <5th-4th>
    - Meerlinda <5th-4th>
    - Marnius <?-6th>
    - Theresa Kymena <8th-7th>
    - Martin Franckel <13th-12th>

    -Tzimisce-
    - Lugoj <?th-?th>
    - Sascha Vykos <7th-6th>
    - Darvag Grozny <7th-6th>
    - Szechenyi Jolan <?-6th>
    - Zara Slatikov <7th-6th>
    - Stephanie L'Heureux <8th-7th>
    - Efrain Sortano <10th-9th-8th>
    - Esteban del Agua y Tierra <10th-8th>
    - Ana Rita Montaña <?-9th>
    - The Rose <10th-9th>
    - Marie-Agne Gagnon <12th-10th>
    - Wendy Wade <13th-12th>

    -Ventrue-
    - Lantla <5th-4th>
    - Camilla <6th-5th>
    - Rebekah <6th-5th>
    - Gustav Breidenstein <6th-5th>
    - Lady Mary-Anne Bowesley <8th-7th-6th>
    - Vicelin of Marseille <7th-6th>
    - Aristophokles <8th-7th>
    - Livia da Ravenna <8th-7th>
    - Hrothulf <8th-7th>


    Known diablerists but unknown if they lowered their generation:
    - Djuhah (Assamite)
    - Francisco Polonia (Lasombra)
    - Cicatriz (Nosferatu)
    - Lotharius (Tremere)
    - Abetorius (Tremere)
    - Dracula (Tzimisce)

    - Saga
    Last edited by Saga; 09-16-2019, 11:16 PM.

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  • Saga
    replied
    Originally posted by Baaldam View Post


    Well, not what i was looking for - i was in it just to answer a "how could a sire be two generations away of its own childe" question, so to speak.
    But at least now i know some novels' stuff i was not aware of.

    Sorry, double post and I can't delete this one

    - Saga
    Last edited by Saga; 09-16-2019, 11:16 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Baaldam
    replied
    Originally posted by Saga View Post

    "When Lady Blake and the vampire who remade her - a blood-sorcerer named Anton Wellig - flee to the Continent, Regina cannot let her go and returns to the company of Victoria Ash, who has become her protector and lover among the undead."

    - The Wounded King, pg. 8

    There is no given generation to Anton Wellig but due to his position within the clan and thaumaturgical power, he is most probably childe of Meerlinda, thus Emma Blake was 6th or 7th generation.

    - Saga

    Well, not what i was looking for - i was in it just to answer a "how could a sire be two generations away of its own childe" question, so to speak.
    But at least now i know some novels' stuff i was not aware of.

    Leave a comment:


  • Saga
    replied
    Originally posted by Baaldam View Post


    Well, the wiki for some reason says Edward Bainbridge is her sire, even though he's given as 7th gen while she is described as 9th,
    something Undead Rabbit brought up and i was (kind of) answering to. Though as things turned out, it reinforces wonderfully how unreliable the WW Wiki is, i guess...
    "When Lady Blake and the vampire who remade her - a blood-sorcerer named Anton Wellig - flee to the Continent, Regina cannot let her go and returns to the company of Victoria Ash, who has become her protector and lover among the undead."

    - The Wounded King, pg. 8

    There is no given generation to Anton Wellig but due to his position within the clan and thaumaturgical power, he is most probably childe of Meerlinda, thus Emma Blake was 6th or 7th generation.

    - Saga

    Leave a comment:


  • Baaldam
    replied
    Originally posted by Saga View Post

    Emma Blake (a.k.a. Emiliana Ducheski) is childe of Anton Wellig embraced in 1887 and perished in 1888, unless they changed that too in V20.

    - Saga

    Well, the wiki for some reason says Edward Bainbridge is her sire, even though he's given as 7th gen while she is described as 9th,
    something Undead Rabbit brought up and i was (kind of) answering to. Though as things turned out, it reinforces wonderfully how unreliable the WW Wiki is, i guess...

    Leave a comment:


  • Saga
    replied
    Originally posted by Baaldam View Post

    Remember how Valerius is 7th, but his childe Lady Anne is 6th in contemporary times? Diablerie can be a funny thing in that it can change the effective generation of NPCs and mess extrapolation of one's lineage based on stats.


    It could happen, depending on how young or not as a kindred is Emma when both are presented, for her to be embraced and him a few months or years later to secretly diablerize some rival. Damn, i have seen that kind of thing at play....

    Oh, 1887-1888 quite the short unlifespan, makes it far more probable there was some mess with the write-ups.
    The age differences between Emma and her daughter Regina are also awfully close, might be said.
    Emma Blake (a.k.a. Emiliana Ducheski) is childe of Anton Wellig embraced in 1887 and perished in 1888, unless they changed that too in V20.

    - Saga

    Leave a comment:


  • Baaldam
    replied
    Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post


    Embraced no. Elevated through diablerie? Most likely. When I wrote the first list it wasnt clear that the request was only about "original" 4th gen.
    Etrius and Goratrix too have several childe who are sixth generation vampires, since when they auto-embraced themselves they were 5th gen.


    By the way, take everything about De Calinot with a grain of salt. Her only known childe, Edward Bainbridge, was a 7th generation vampire, and yet his children, Emma Blake, was a 9th generation.
    It is clear that quite the confusion was made along the road.
    Remember how Valerius is 7th, but his childe Lady Anne is 6th in contemporary times? Diablerie can be a funny thing in that it can change the effective generation of NPCs and mess extrapolation of one's lineage based on stats.


    It could happen, depending on how young or not as a kindred is Emma when both are presented, for her to be embraced and him a few months or years later to secretly diablerize some rival. Damn, i have seen that kind of thing at play....

    Oh, 1887-1888 quite the short unlifespan, makes it far more probable there was some mess with the write-ups.
    The age differences between Emma and her daughter Regina are also awfully close, might be said.
    Last edited by Baaldam; 09-16-2019, 04:49 PM.

    Leave a comment:

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