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  • V5 Humanity

    Simply put: Stains are only gained by acts listed in book such as creating a ghoul, events causing harm to touchstones, bestial failures, and breaking a chronicle tenant.
    why else would you, as a storyteller give a character a stain?

    The part that says "The more usual corruptions and deformations of the character’s humanity can cause Stains on their Humanity track." does that mean that the character that kills with a humanity seven should gain a stain no matter what? If they plan to destroy an anarch that is causing them ill, is that murder since they are undead? Should there have been a Humanity chart added to the system to give a baseline like the older editions or is it wrong to refer to it to use as a baseline? A conviction that says something like I will protect my family no matter the cost and they end up killing doing this- they would not receive a stain due to their conviction?


  • #2
    I'm biased by Requiem 2e Humanity (which is where the whole idea of Touchstones comes from), but I'd give stains mostly for inhuman things, not necessarily for immoral things. Killing someone in self-defense would be less stain-provoking than cutting out someone's eye and tongue to use in a blood ritual, because humans just don't do that. Same for shooting someone vs boiling their blood in their veins with Sorcery.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Draconis View Post
      I'm biased by Requiem 2e Humanity (which is where the whole idea of Touchstones comes from), but I'd give stains mostly for inhuman things, not necessarily for immoral things. Killing someone in self-defense would be less stain-provoking than cutting out someone's eye and tongue to use in a blood ritual, because humans just don't do that. Same for shooting someone vs boiling their blood in their veins with Sorcery.
      Yeah, I'm exactly the opposite.

      I have no interest in a game punishing me for playing a vampire. I'm interested in a game where I'm punished for being a MONSTER.

      Just play Humanity the way it should be, "Remove it for being an evil bastard."


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by cgunning View Post
        The part that says "The more usual corruptions and deformations of the character’s humanity can cause Stains on their Humanity track." does that mean that the character that kills with a humanity seven should gain a stain no matter what?
        My understanding it's that, no. If killing isn't against a tenet, it shouldn't give stains.

        The whole point of having a vague and open ended system was so one can craft the morality according with what's good for the story (and the table).So things like a war chronicle aren't a Humanity sink, unless you want them to be so.

        In general I would avoid misterious and unwritten rules punishing the players from 'nowhere'. I imagine most players would want to know what will cause their Humanity to drop in order to better avoid it.

        "Corruptions and deformations of Humanity" it's a bit vague. We can see at this very thread that people don't quite agree what that means.

        It's woeful to think that you will enter a table without knowing what things will feed your Beast. It would be better to be told what's going to bring down Humanity.

        Casually, that's what tenets do. Note that they aren't supposed to be an ST secret...
        Last edited by Aleph; 09-11-2019, 01:32 PM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
          Yeah, I'm exactly the opposite.I have no interest in a game punishing me for playing a vampire.
          I mean, that's only if you see Stains as the game/ST punishing you/your character. (Though "humanity loss isn't a punishment from on high" is also more of a Requiem than a Masquerade view, to be fair.) There are already powers which automatically give/risk Stains every time you use them, such as the entirety of Oblivion; I don't see that as a punishment for playing a Lasombra, but as a representation that people who draw power from Entropy itself are unlikely to be especially human.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Draconis View Post

            I mean, that's only if you see Stains as the game/ST punishing you/your character. (Though "humanity loss isn't a punishment from on high" is also more of a Requiem than a Masquerade view, to be fair.) There are already powers which automatically give/risk Stains every time you use them, such as the entirety of Oblivion; I don't see that as a punishment for playing a Lasombra, but as a representation that people who draw power from Entropy itself are unlikely to be especially human.
            I admit, I think that's a poor choice for a game mechanic for those same reasons.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by cgunning View Post
              Simply put: Stains are only gained by acts listed in book such as creating a ghoul, events causing harm to touchstones, bestial failures, and breaking a chronicle tenant.
              why else would you, as a storyteller give a character a stain?

              The part that says "The more usual corruptions and deformations of the character’s humanity can cause Stains on their Humanity track." does that mean that the character that kills with a humanity seven should gain a stain no matter what? If they plan to destroy an anarch that is causing them ill, is that murder since they are undead? Should there have been a Humanity chart added to the system to give a baseline like the older editions or is it wrong to refer to it to use as a baseline? A conviction that says something like I will protect my family no matter the cost and they end up killing doing this- they would not receive a stain due to their conviction?

              The book talks about heinous acts, most of the time things that are monstrous (such as boiling someone alive or drinking their blood so fast it causes their organs to rupture). Basically the intent of the book is 'the more monster you act, the more it stains your Humanity' since Humanity isn't a measure of how 'good' you are but, How Not The Beast You Are. The way the book reads, it's like they were planning a list of 'these are always Stains' and then abandoned that design goal.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Draconis View Post
                ...cutting out someone's eye and tongue to use in a blood ritual, because humans just don't do that.
                About a dozen Mage: The Ascension groups would beg to differ. Performing grisly acts for "Ritual Purposes" is VERY human.

                Same for shooting someone vs boiling their blood in their veins with Sorcery.
                Second verse, same as the first. Afflicting people with terrible, lethal curses has a long and venerable history for humans. At least in the World of Darkness.
                Last edited by Bluecho; 09-12-2019, 12:03 AM.


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                • #9
                  Would you call Mages fundamentally human, in the sense of Humanity as a whole? I wouldn't, same with werewolves, changelings, wraiths, and so on.

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                  • #10
                    Mages rarely (if ever) have Practices and beliefs that aren't a reflection of mortal beliefs. The fact of the matter is that Humans *do* that sort of things and Mage just takes it as an example of Instrument.

                    Ritual self-mutilation it's a big part of many human cultures. The only difference between mages doing ritual mutilation and humans doing the same it's that when Mages do it, they do get supernatural power.
                    Last edited by Aleph; 09-12-2019, 08:11 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Punishing the Most Heinous Crimes Analysis and recommendations related to Bill C-53 (Life Means Life Act)
                      While all murders are of course deplorable, many would argue that some killings are so heinous, so offensive to the public and damaging to Canadian society, that the killers should be imprisoned for the rest of their natural lives. This would include violent predators who plan and deliberate about not only killing another human being, but do so while committing egregious crimes such as sexual assault, kidnapping, or terrorist activities. Or they involve the planned and deliberate killing of police officers or other officials tasked with keeping Canadians safe.
                      This is, I think, a reasonable definition. Namely, that heinous is arguably a conjunction of crimes and sins. Arson on its own is not heinous, torching a building home people people might be, burning down a crowded building and blocking the exits is a heinous crime.

                      Of the splats, only werewolves do not have a game mechanic for tracking a corruption similar to that of humanity. Among wraiths this is the angst score and general strength of the shadow. Among mages it is resonance.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

                        This is, I think, a reasonable definition. Namely, that heinous is arguably a conjunction of crimes and sins. Arson on its own is not heinous, torching a building home people people might be, burning down a crowded building and blocking the exits is a heinous crime.

                        Of the splats, only werewolves do not have a game mechanic for tracking a corruption similar to that of humanity. Among wraiths this is the angst score and general strength of the shadow. Among mages it is resonance.

                        What is quite deliciously ironic, considering how upright and dedicated to preserving the world's purity and other things the Garou are wont to claim to be.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by cgunning View Post
                          Should there have been a Humanity chart added to the system to give a baseline like the older editions or is it wrong to refer to it to use as a baseline?
                          I would argue that the lack of such a chart is a feature, not a bug.

                          The Humanity chart consists of:
                          • Roughly three chronicle Tenets which will cause stains if transgressed against. These are designed by the ST and players to be the general rules of the world. They can choose to emulate a genre, like Southern Gothic or Industrial Wasteland Punk, with characters who act out of genre being punished with stains. They can choose to have a Tenet that enforces being a moral and nice person, like "Thou shall not kill", which gives stains for being immoral by human standards. They can choose to have a Tenet that punishes acting too inhuman, like "Don't do anything a human couldn't do", which punishes biological inhumanity.
                          • Then there are Convictions. These are from one to three personal moral codes created for each pc, and tend to be quite idiosyncratic. You gain stains by transgressing against one of your Convictions, but can reduce Tenet stains if the Conviction and Tenet are in disagreement.
                          • There are various powers (like Oblivion) and actions (like ghouling and diablerie) sprinkled throughout the text of the books which cause stains on their own. It has not been made clear whether personal Convictions can be used to mitigate stains from these sources. (I would run it as allowed, but with caution.) It would be nice to have these all listed in one place, but "Value style over organization" is a Conviction of the V5 creators, it would seem.
                          So, no, there is not a pre-printed list of Tenets or Humanity "sins". You get to work that out with your players at the start of the chronicle. Yes, it is more work to build your own morality system, but at least you know it will be one you like working with, whether you think Humanity should be about "acting human" or "being moral".

                          If you really like the Humanity list of sins from V20&pre, just add the following chronicle Tenet. "Do not perform any action lower than your Humanity score, as listed in V20, p312". That would port in the old list of sins, just make certain all your players have a copy of it.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by cgunning View Post
                            If they plan to destroy an anarch that is causing them ill, is that murder since they are undead?

                            Honestly, the whole "they don't have rights because they're undead" thing is ridiculous. So what if their biology has atrophied? They're still an active, sapient individual who is fully capable of serving as a productive member of the community. So yeah, I'd say cold blooded murder of a fellow kindred would incur a stain. Also, I'm pretty sure outright killing other kindred is forbidden by polite vampire society, unless you have the Prince's permission, or it's in self defense.

                            Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                            About a dozen Mage: The Ascension groups would beg to differ. Performing grisly acts for "Ritual Purposes" is VERY human.


                            Second verse, same as the first. Afflicting people with terrible, lethal curses has a long and venerable history for humans. At least in the World of Darkness.

                            Hell, warriors used to consume the flesh and blood of their enemies in order to gain their strength...

                            So does that mean Diablerie is in line with humanity, as well?
                            Last edited by Nyrufa; 09-13-2019, 09:49 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Thus far:

                              Humanity, like Consensus, is relative in the World of Darkness.

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