Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Random Dark Ages Musing about the Lhiannan((who white wolf must hate)) and The Noiad

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Random Dark Ages Musing about the Lhiannan((who white wolf must hate)) and The Noiad

    Hey it was mean to not include the Noiad in v20 da, they are the only da original splat that does not make an apperance at all in the entire v20 da series. MEANIES!

    Anyway that aside, is it me or does white wolf and later onyx path deeply despise the Lhiannan? Each edition seems to have a mission to make them less and less playable, finally culminating with dav20 which gave them so many clan weaknesses((along with what i have to say probably is in my opinion the worst clan weakness of all time))

  • #2
    Most of the bloodlines appeared first as NPC resources, not developed to be playable, and that is the idea behind the Lhiannan in the 1995´s Dark ages Companion. That could be the problem of Lhiannan in DAV 20, having made payable a bloodline with so many obstacles that is hard to make a character, futhermore, Lhiannan are damned to extintion hunted by the Gangrels and tied with a fading religion.

    Comment


    • #3
      Dude read the Lhiannan in the dark ages companion, both mechanically and lorewise they are just fine as a pc option. Their weakness originally was just a stronger weakness to abrahamic true faith + their aura being easier to discern. Then in revised they got all that being practically unplayable in anything but a strictly stationary game...and now they have that + if they embrace they literally lose generation aka...any lhiannan that ever sires is mentally lacking. That last point is not at all relevant, that is like arguing cappadocians should not be playable in a da game because they are doomed to extinction as well.

      Each edition seemed to like have a continious tradition in making them not only less appealing as a pc option, but also as an npc option. I also know after having asked people who worked on Dav20, the philosophy in that book was specifically to make the bloodlines in that book into functional pc options.

      Comment


      • #4
        I forget who it was - I want to say Richard Dansky during his period as Dark Ages Developer, but I may be misremembering - who pointed out on alt.games.whitewolf that their signature discipline 5th level power made them an enemy of every near by werewolf, cat, druid, witch, and fae anytime they used it. And that's before you even introduce human religion or vampire territoriality in to the mix.

        Personally, I find their concept to be redundant, given that if I want vampire Celtic pagan witches bound to the earth, I can just import a small-b bloodline of Tzimisce to the British Isles. Other people's mileage may vary.

        Added: I've also never been a fan of the Noiad, as they're one of those super niche things that is largely of little use to people not setting a game in their tiny isolated corner at the very fringe of the setting. In contrast, a theoretical Gangrel Shaman bloodline, similar to the Gangrel Mariners and City/Greek Gangrel, who swap out Fortitude with Auspex and pick up the sort of behavioral taboos associated with shaman in real world cultures in addition to the Clan's regular weakness, is the sort of thing that can be useful to players and storytellers regardless of where you set your game.


        Last edited by No One of Consequence; 09-17-2019, 06:21 PM.


        What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
        Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
          I forget who it was - I want to say Richard Dansky during his period as Dark Ages Developer, but I may be misremembering - who pointed out on alt.games.whitewolf that their signature discipline 5th level power made them an enemy of every near by werewolf, cat, druid, witch, and fae anytime they used it. And that's before you even introduce human religion or vampire territoriality in to the mix.

          Personally, I find their concept to be redundant, given that if I want vampire Celtic pagan witches bound to the earth, I can just import a small-b bloodline of Tzimisce to the British Isles. Other people's mileage may vary.
          Tzimisce, Telyav Tremere, regular Gangrel, and more - with everything I've been reading about the Lhiannan at this point taking the bloodline is just a huge deficit.

          Comment


          • #6
            The Lhiannan are fine. If you think about it, it makes sense. The way a group of vampires becomes a major clan is by being successful and thriving. If you have a debilitating weakness, you don't thrive. It seems reasonable minor bloodlines should have some reason they haven't made it to major clan status.

            As for the Noiad, it does seem odd they were omitted. V20 says, "They no longer exist. If you run a historical game, okay". VDA says, "The who now? We've never heard of them."

            Comment


            • #7
              I find the Lhiannan interesting because of their weakness - it is an interesting tie to spirits and fae. But they do make a better NPC than a PC. That said, why not bring them back? The spirit arrangement that created them could be recreated. Or maybe some wake from torpor.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
                Personally, I find their concept to be redundant, given that if I want vampire Celtic pagan witches bound to the earth, I can just import a small-b bloodline of Tzimisce to the British Isles. Other people's mileage may vary.
                That's probably what I'd do, were I running them. Make them a weird bloodline of Tzimisce, with in-Clan Koldunism instead of Vicissitude, and whatever other changes in Discipline spread. Gives more room to use them, without being totally limited by geography or Generation. Makes it easier to have a few around in the modern day.

                Maybe they teamed up with survivors of the Telyavic Tremere, and that's why they got exterminated (in addition to the loss of land and culture thing). Clan Tzimisce and Clan Tremere both couldn't stand the fraternization.

                Added: I've also never been a fan of the Noiad, as they're one of those super niche things that is largely of little use to people not setting a game in their tiny isolated corner at the very fringe of the setting. In contrast, a theoretical Gangrel Shaman bloodline, similar to the Gangrel Mariners and City/Greek Gangrel, who swap out Fortitude with Auspex and pick up the sort of behavioral taboos associated with shaman in real world cultures in addition to the Clan's regular weakness, is the sort of thing that can be useful to players and storytellers regardless of where you set your game.
                I like this. I like this a lot. I can see loads of these sorts of Shamanic Gangrel being autarkis, or joining the Anarchs as "Old Skool" sorcerers.


                Comment


                • #9
                  Yeah, I've often had the thought that Kolduns make Lhia's redundant.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
                    Yeah, I've often had the thought that Kolduns make Lhia's redundant.
                    Part of the reason is that the Lhiannan were written before "Koldunic Sorcery" was a thing. The former appeared in the first major supplement for the original Dark Ages game, and the latter didn't become distinct from plain old Thaumaturgy until the Revised era, some five years later. You could just as easily argue that the addition of kolduns was redundant when the Lhiannan already existed. Why did the Tzimisce need a second unique discipline and a new faction of old-timey forest witches when there already was a similar bloodline in the game?

                    I wouldn't argue that personally, though, because to me the Lhiannan and kolduns are quite distinct from each other. The entire reason why "lost" bloodlines like the Lhiannan and Lamia were included in the Dark Ages game was to highlight, and I quote, "the sense of tragedy and poignancy that accompanies playing a character from a doomed bloodline." You don't achieve that effect with a sorcerous faction of a familiar clan, especially since kolduns are supposed to survive into the modern nights (if in vanishingly rare numbers).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Elphilm View Post
                      Part of the reason is that the Lhiannan were written before "Koldunic Sorcery" was a thing. The former appeared in the first major supplement for the original Dark Ages game, and the latter didn't become distinct from plain old Thaumaturgy until the Revised era, some five years later. You could just as easily argue that the addition of kolduns was redundant when the Lhiannan already existed. Why did the Tzimisce need a second unique discipline and a new faction of old-timey forest witches when there already was a similar bloodline in the game?
                      Indeed. And, as written in the original Dark Ages Companion the Lhiannan are a lot more interesting that Koldunic Tzimisce or Telyavic Tremere.

                      One additional point is that, when they first appeared, it was hinted that the Lhiannan might not descended from any of the thirteen clans, but were the children of the Crone. This gets downplayed in later appearances, where it gets decided that the Lhiannan are a Gangrel bloodline, and this makes them somewhat less interesting.

                      Of course, the Noiad really are redundant. I would give them the same disciplines as the Lhiannan, and treat "Noiad" as a regional name local to Scandinavia.


                      Learn more about the hidden history of the British Isles in England Will Burn.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Telyavic Tremere, Koldunic Tzimisce and Lhiannan are redundant, I agree. All of them bloodlines of pagan witchcraft, tied with the land and the spirits of the earth, etc. But Lhiannan was the first and, indeed, is probably the most unbalanced of the three, the worst to play with. And that is the point of Caedus, I think. The problem, in my opinion, is hard to balance 20 bloodlines and being original.

                        I am very critic with DAV 20 rulebook, I own the book, but honestly, I do not like the additions. Lhiannan´s rules are one of the many examples of new ideas that are poorly tested. Or new background about bloodlines that should remain mysterious (Nicktuku), are historically reconnected (Arhimans) or openly new (Bonsam and the other new africans). I believe that most of the fans of Vampire are not attracted but the fantasy of the game, the superpowers and the combat, but for the complex lore and background of the game. The problem (in my opinion) is that DAV20 does not show continuity with the previous lore and does not balance the new systems. Caedus, if you like the Lhiannan and you like the rules and how are depicted in previous editions, nothings compels you to play as they are in DAV 20, just ask you storyteller about.

                        ADDED: In DAV20 Companion appears a Lhiannan in the Bath chapters as a rebel for the pagan traditions in the free city. May be you could find some inspiration about. Honestly, it surprises me see a Lhiannan so involved in politics.
                        Last edited by Justycar; 09-18-2019, 08:28 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Justycar View Post
                          Most of the bloodlines appeared first as NPC resources, not developed to be playable, and that is the idea behind the Lhiannan in the 1995´s Dark ages Companion. That could be the problem of Lhiannan in DAV 20, having made payable a bloodline with so many obstacles that is hard to make a character, futhermore, Lhiannan are damned to extintion hunted by the Gangrels and tied with a fading religion.

                          How the hell do the Gangrel, the most "live and let unlive, as long as territories do not overlap" clan hunt anyone into extinction? Sure, with the Tremere, they have a clear reason, same with the Fiends.

                          Why would they hunt the Lhiannan?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I do not remember very well, but they are depicted as "ancestral enemies" in the old books, something related with the crones and devils. The Gangrels see the Lhiannans as abominations, but that was only one of the reasons of their extinction, it was important too their vulnerability to the growing christian faith (tied as they were to the druidic cults) and their own weakness, their boon with that "Crone" that fades with each new embrace.

                            EDITED: In 2002´s Storytellers Handbook page 16 says that he gangrels have to kill the Lhiannan any where they go, for some mysterious reason they call "the Great treason".
                            Last edited by Justycar; 09-18-2019, 08:57 AM. Reason: New info.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              In The guide of the low clans, page 23 of the spanish edition, it is explained the old war between Ennoia and Churka, godess of the beasts and god of the night. The children of Ennoia are the Gangrel, the children of Churka are the Ravnos. But the first Laibon and Lhiannan, being both progreny of Ennoia, betrayed her and now their descendants are hunted by the Gangrels, for this old treason.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X