Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Who is right?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Another vote for the Malkavians as a clan, the seers of the game probably have the "truth", but there is no understandable revelation. And the templars, of course.

    Comment


    • #17
      Pang4, that was sort of my conceit when I was running games. Not that the Setites were right about the origin of all vampires, necessarily, but that they were correct about Set being an actual god, and Egyptian mythology being real.

      Comment


      • #18
        The answer is, "Everyone and no one. Truth is dependent on your point of view."


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

        Comment


        • #19
          Well, there is no Truth in the WoD, the truth depends on you ST, that’s the style of WW. And most materials are in-character version, which means you can modify as you desire and nobody is completely right—the history is yours.

          But I will say materials of Demons may be the most reliable... They are angels who create the world and exist from the beginning, they have experienced many historical events, especially pre-historic...

          Comment


          • #20
            Me and my Servitors

            Comment


            • #21
              No one.

              Truth is the power of imagination in the WOD.

              It is what you will it.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

              Comment


              • #22
                Malkav has all the pieces. Then he bumped the table and some of them fell under the couch.

                Edit: Caine kicked the table then threw his pieces all over the room.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                  Well, least wrong.

                  The WoD is known for not having definitive truths. Everything is written from the viewpoint of an unreliable narrator. There may or may not be definitive answers to most of the big-picture, in-world mysteries. That said, there are lots of things we, as readers, more-or-less accept as true.

                  In-world, which faction, sect, clan, or individual has the clearest picture of what the truth of the world is? Who has the least accurate appraisal of their situation? Who is soooo close, but just doesn't have that last piece of the puzzle?
                  You just described, in you first paragraph, how the WW universe is designed: ambiguous, open to interpretation.

                  Then you ask what is the "truth."

                  Did you mean to ask what other's opinions are?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Illuminostro View Post

                    You just described, in you first paragraph, how the WW universe is designed: ambiguous, open to interpretation.

                    Then you ask what is the "truth."

                    Did you mean to ask what other's opinions are?
                    My intention was to ask forum members their opinion on which sort of npcs would have the most accurate view of the canon world. Not what, in their opinion, the absolute truth in-world is required to be by the rules of the game. I was asking because I needed an npc who could serve as a sort of tour-guide for my players, and couldn't decide what sort of npc it should be. (I wound up using an Inconnu monitor, fwiw. She answered their question and exited the story.)

                    In WW, there is often a lot of room for interpretation. Revised clanbooks, for example, are written in the voice of specific npcs within the setting. Most of what we "know" is filtered through the prejudices, motives, and straight-up errors of these unreliable narrators.

                    However, as readers out here in the real world, we can compare and contrast the varying accounts of the unreliable narrators. As well, we can use the sections of text that are presented as out-of-character fact-facts or mechanical crunch. From this process, the fanbase generally agrees that certain things are canon facts within the setting.

                    For example, some Toreador like to say they don't have a clan curse. They happily describe it as being more sensitive to their human side's emotions or whatever. We, as readers, know they suffer a mechanical flaw, because we have read the sections where it is described under the heading of "Weakness".

                    This is not just a differing opinion on the subject. In this area of vampire lore, some Toreador are mistaken about the facts of the world in which they live. They are, based on ooc canon fact, wrong.

                    An individual storyteller at their own table certainly has the right to rewrite the setting into whatever setting they prefer. It could even be argued that storytellers don't just have the right to homebrew, they have a responsibility to homebrew the setting to fit their player group.

                    Maybe, they decide to homebrew the setting so the High Clans have no clan curses, but rather can choose whether or not to allow their "curse" to limit them. If High Clan vampires choose to follow their "curse" for a night, they recharge all willpower while they sleep. This could be an interesting twist on the canon setting. It would have the knock-on effect of making the Toreador sort-of no longer wrong about their flaw. That trait would become a blessing, not a curse.

                    This, however, would only be a change... and this is the important part... in the chronicle run by that one particular storyteller. If you met a random stranger and discovered you both play VtM, the expectation would be that the setting you go on to discuss would be the canon setting.

                    WW's encouragement of homebrewing the rules and setting was one of the most revolutionary things about VtM in the very beginning. It may seem hard to imagine, now, when nearly every ttrpg has a "golden rule" disclaimer, but there was a time when games were written in a highly prescriptive manner. You were either playing a game "right", or you weren't playing the game. WW breaking down those calcified habits was a beautiful watershed moment for the hobby.

                    This homebrewing does not however change the canon setting in any way.

                    For the vast majority of chronicles being played, the Toreador would still be demonstrably deluded about their clan flaw. Some individuals and groups within the canon setting have a greater or lesser knowledge of the world around them. It is safe to assume the average Caitiff who was drive-by embraced and abandoned last night has less accurate knowledge of their world than an Inconnu monitor.

                    Soooo.... what I was asking was: "Based on the agreed upon canon of the game setting, who, in the world, has the most and least accurate appraisal of the world around them"?

                    Seems I should have spent willpower on my expression roll.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                      WW's encouragement of homebrewing the rules and setting was one of the most revolutionary things about VtM in the very beginning. It may seem hard to imagine, now, when nearly every ttrpg has a "golden rule" disclaimer, but there was a time when games were written in a highly prescriptive manner. You were either playing a game "right", or you weren't playing the game. WW breaking down those calcified habits was a beautiful watershed moment for the hobby.
                      This is totally true, and it's something worth remembering. The First Edition AD&D DMG had its own version of these disclaimers, to be sure...

                      Read how and why the system is at it is, follow the parameters, and then cut portions as needed to maintain excitement. For example, the rules call for wandering monsters, but these can be not only irritating -- if not deadly -- bu tthe appearance of such can actually spoil a game by interfering with an orderly expedition.... Know the game systems, and you will know how and when to take upon yourself the ultimate power. To become the final arbiter, rather than the interpreter of the rules, can be a dificult and demanding task, and it cannot be undertaken lightly, for your players expect to play this game, not one made up on the spot. By the same token, they are playing the game the way you, their DM, imagines and creates it.... Being a true DM requires cleverness and imagination which no set of rules books can bestow."
                      ... but it doesn't quite have the same ring as "There are no rules. The game should be whatever you want it to be[.]"

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Oddly enough the only splat that had real perspective on the situation seemed to be the KotE line.

                        Thanks to the underpinning mechanics of chi and balance, the Kuei-jin had constant reminders of the truth of everything having its time and purpose. With the connections to the various spirit worlds/dimensions there was no real debate about what existed and what didn't. With their some what closer connection to the mortal world and the other shen of Asian mythology they usually had more access to specialized information regarding setting level stuff.

                        Lastly while every splat more or less had an apocalypse of some sort on the horizon, the Kuei-jin were the only ones who seemed to understand that such a calamity would eventually pass. By the Kuei-jin system the end of the fifth age was Gehenna/Apocalypse/etc. and the following sixth age was one of hellish darkness and torment. Except that following the sixth age was a return to the first age where the world was healthy again. In theory most of the bone flowers and thrashing dragons bodhisattvas were going to wait out the entire sixth age in the Yin and Yang worlds respectively and only return once the first age began and they could guide the world through its healing phase. This was also meant to tie back into the same sort of setting as Exalted since that was still considered the prequel setting to WoD back when KotE was being actively worked on.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          kuei-jin are better informed than cainites, but they're still quite ignorant as a whole,
                          and they also fall into the same generalizing habits as cainites,
                          as in, cainites see every powerful entity as a methuselah or antideluvian, every spirit is a demon, and every demon is a "true demon",
                          kuei-jin see everything as a yama king, an akuma, the distinction between fallen and any other sort of demon is null etc

                          all in all, it's the same as for cainites, only the infernalists, akuma and yama kings know the truth


                          -

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Thoth View Post
                            Oddly enough the only splat that had real perspective on the situation seemed to be the KotE line.

                            Thanks to the underpinning mechanics of chi and balance, the Kuei-jin had constant reminders of the truth of everything having its time and purpose. With the connections to the various spirit worlds/dimensions there was no real debate about what existed and what didn't. With their some what closer connection to the mortal world and the other shen of Asian mythology they usually had more access to specialized information regarding setting level stuff.

                            Lastly while every splat more or less had an apocalypse of some sort on the horizon, the Kuei-jin were the only ones who seemed to understand that such a calamity would eventually pass. By the Kuei-jin system the end of the fifth age was Gehenna/Apocalypse/etc. and the following sixth age was one of hellish darkness and torment. Except that following the sixth age was a return to the first age where the world was healthy again. In theory most of the bone flowers and thrashing dragons bodhisattvas were going to wait out the entire sixth age in the Yin and Yang worlds respectively and only return once the first age began and they could guide the world through its healing phase. This was also meant to tie back into the same sort of setting as Exalted since that was still considered the prequel setting to WoD back when KotE was being actively worked on.
                            This. Individual Wan Kuei are as ignorant as anyone else, but the *paradigm* is closest.

                            Throw in a bit of Mage (the Purple Paradigm) and Demon (though I think Torment makes Demons unreliable, their version allows for multiple things to be true at once), with a smidgen of Revelations of the Dark Mother (for a model of multiple gods that works with Mage, Vampire and Demon) for good measure, and you can explain most of the World of Darkness.

                            Add in Exalted 1e (or the early intent behind some it), and you possibly explain even more.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Worst: Garou. Why trust your histories to the one auspice that doesn't need honour?

                              Now, as far as vampires go.
                              Set: I feel like this is the closest to the truth. The issue is the story is so willfully mutated to whatever cuts the fancy of the individual cult and then you start playing chinese whispers. Also it's a fun, ballsy story that isn't shy with the embellishing. It sounds like there's a truth underneath all those lies.
                              Noddists: Some of it sounds true and rings well with Set. Much of it sounds like something a think-tank'd give.
                              Bahari: Seems like a counter-culture that's been going on for so long that it appears to have legitimacy through age. If Lilith's so powerful, why is she constantly losing and suffering? That kind of rhetoric reminds me of the fascist "we have a weak and pitiful enemy that is using it's immense power to undermine the fabric of our society, if only a few of us fought back we'd be winning'. It's a real appeal to wishful thinkers that I just have to distrust.

                              I've not read the Gehena/City/specific story books and I'm sure they've made the bahari right or something silly, but just from reading core books and location neutral supplements that really doesn't seem the case. I don't want to discount Lilith entirely (pillaging her garden sounds like something cool) but her followers are wack and you can't trust them for shit.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post

                                My intention was to ask forum members their opinion on which sort of npcs would have the most accurate view of the canon world. Not what, in their opinion, the absolute truth in-world is required to be by the rules of the game. I was asking because I needed an npc who could serve as a sort of tour-guide for my players, and couldn't decide what sort of npc it should be. (I wound up using an Inconnu monitor, fwiw. She answered their question and exited the story.)

                                In WW, there is often a lot of room for interpretation. Revised clanbooks, for example, are written in the voice of specific npcs within the setting. Most of what we "know" is filtered through the prejudices, motives, and straight-up errors of these unreliable narrators.

                                However, as readers out here in the real world, we can compare and contrast the varying accounts of the unreliable narrators. As well, we can use the sections of text that are presented as out-of-character fact-facts or mechanical crunch. From this process, the fanbase generally agrees that certain things are canon facts within the setting.

                                For example, some Toreador like to say they don't have a clan curse. They happily describe it as being more sensitive to their human side's emotions or whatever. We, as readers, know they suffer a mechanical flaw, because we have read the sections where it is described under the heading of "Weakness".

                                This is not just a differing opinion on the subject. In this area of vampire lore, some Toreador are mistaken about the facts of the world in which they live. They are, based on ooc canon fact, wrong.

                                An individual storyteller at their own table certainly has the right to rewrite the setting into whatever setting they prefer. It could even be argued that storytellers don't just have the right to homebrew, they have a responsibility to homebrew the setting to fit their player group.

                                Maybe, they decide to homebrew the setting so the High Clans have no clan curses, but rather can choose whether or not to allow their "curse" to limit them. If High Clan vampires choose to follow their "curse" for a night, they recharge all willpower while they sleep. This could be an interesting twist on the canon setting. It would have the knock-on effect of making the Toreador sort-of no longer wrong about their flaw. That trait would become a blessing, not a curse.

                                This, however, would only be a change... and this is the important part... in the chronicle run by that one particular storyteller. If you met a random stranger and discovered you both play VtM, the expectation would be that the setting you go on to discuss would be the canon setting.

                                WW's encouragement of homebrewing the rules and setting was one of the most revolutionary things about VtM in the very beginning. It may seem hard to imagine, now, when nearly every ttrpg has a "golden rule" disclaimer, but there was a time when games were written in a highly prescriptive manner. You were either playing a game "right", or you weren't playing the game. WW breaking down those calcified habits was a beautiful watershed moment for the hobby.

                                This homebrewing does not however change the canon setting in any way.

                                For the vast majority of chronicles being played, the Toreador would still be demonstrably deluded about their clan flaw. Some individuals and groups within the canon setting have a greater or lesser knowledge of the world around them. It is safe to assume the average Caitiff who was drive-by embraced and abandoned last night has less accurate knowledge of their world than an Inconnu monitor.

                                Soooo.... what I was asking was: "Based on the agreed upon canon of the game setting, who, in the world, has the most and least accurate appraisal of the world around them"?

                                Seems I should have spent willpower on my expression roll.
                                I got you, man. No need for a novel. Other's opinions.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X