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Help me build a better combat system (VtM Rev/V20)

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  • Help me build a better combat system (VtM Rev/V20)

    Hey all. I know this has been done to death but i was hoping you guys could help me out.

    So the problem I have with the combat system is that everything takes such a long time and each "mini-fight" consists of between 3 and 4 rolls (depending on if the defender dodges or not). I want a fight to be easy, clean and fairly short on rolls.

    So my basic wish is to boild down the system to an opposed roll. Attack and Damage vs Defence and Soak.
    Problem is that you can't just mash the Dex+Melee+Str+Weapon(+Potence) pool into one big pool and have that against a pool of Dex+Dodge+Stamina+Armor(+Fortitude), that just gets unwieldy at highers levels. I've toyed around with making damage and soak automatic but that leaves out the element of uncertainty. And rolling against a static defense is not desirable (the defender also want to feel like they are contributing)

    So please help me. I want something that ticks the following boxes,
    1 One single opposed roll, person with the most successes wins
    2 All "combats stats"* should be equally (or near equally) valid.
    3 No giant dicepools
    4 Simple (no complex math like (a+b+c+d)/3). While i mostly use digital gaming tools (dicerollers, digital char sheets etc.) it's nice to be able to easily calculate a pool.

    So how would I go about doing this?



    *By combat stats i mean Strength, Dexterity, Stamina, Perception, Athletics, Brawl, Dodge, Melee, Weapon, Armor, Potence, Fortitude, Celerity





    English is not my native language, so i apologize for errors in grammar or spelling.

  • #2
    One way i've thought about is just assigning an attribute to different weapons* and then just do relevant attribute + relevant ability vs relevant attribute + relevant ability.
    With weapon damage and soak being automatic.

    However, automatic damage and soak makes Potence and Fortitude nearly worthless (just a more expensive version of an attribute). So question is how to make them useful in that case.
    Also, how about those edge cases where a character is trained to use fists but with Dexterity rather than Strength?



    *Strength would be for heavier weapons like axes and maced, or for pure fists or claws.
    Dexterity would be for quicker weapons that are more for stabbing rather than slashing/bashing (like daggers or rapiers) or for thrown weapons (combined with athletics)
    Perception would be for guns.





    English is not my native language, so i apologize for errors in grammar or spelling.

    Comment


    • #3
      It's not much, but I'd like to recommend that once a stat hits 6 in any area, the 6th dot and beyond simply counts as an automatic success. So if an attack uses strength and brawl, then your Strength 6 and Brawl 3 PC will get one automatic success and have 8 remaining dice to roll OR s/he can opt to simply take the auto-successes. This cuts down on dice for more powerful characters and also reflects the fact they've become so skilled/powerful in an area that they are starting to make things look effortless. Also helps keep the flow going in an RP experience. Potence, Fortitude and Celerity has always either been auto-success or some special ability in my game world, so they don't add to a monster pile of dice. I hate things that just add dice when my goal is to streamline boring elements.

      To me, the only dice you should be rolling are for the two stats you need to combine: The Attributes and Abilities. That means a grand total of no more than 10 dice no matter what. Any other factors should lower difficulty, add auto-success, etc, but never add more dice to be rolled. I've seen and heard and been party to the "roll 24 dice" type of situations. Feels more like you're laying a trap for a barefoot intruder rather than playing a game.

      This may have issues or not be to your style, but it's worked for me so far. I prefer to keep combat mechanics simple and dice relatively out of the experience. When they're needed, they should be easy to manage.

      Comment


      • #4
        There are definitely too many rolls in Rev, but I think you're over-simplifying. Would you be willing to accept "Attacker rolls to hit vs static defense, if successful, defender rolls soak vs static damage"?

        Comment


        • #5
          Or....

          Attacker rolls vs Attacker. Victor of that contest rolls Damage vs. static defense, resulting in either "High" static damage or "Low" static damage.
          You can have ties either be mutual wins (both make a damage roll) or mutual losses (no one does).

          Average of two rolls. But it resolves TWO attacks. Not just one.

          And if someone wants to just use their static defense (Dex+Dodge+...?) then its Attacker vs. Defender.

          Comment


          • #6
            Leandro´s combat system

            Automatic iniciative: Dex + combat skill
            Combat roll is: Attack + 1d6 vs Defense + 1d6

            Attack=Strengh + weapon bonus + apropiate combat skill
            Defense=((Resistence + Dex)/2) + Armor
            Base health=10+Resilence dots x 2 but if you only have 3 health levels you have to pay willpower to act at -3 becuase you are grievously injured or you just drop unconcius for the rest of the sentence.

            Clash of Wills:If you are affected by a discipline or a power you can try to resist it by a contest of Blood Potency + Willpower vs Blood Potency + Willpower (Use equivalents for other splats for example Gnosis or if you are using generation just count your supernatural trait as 13-Your Gen)

            There aren´t arent multiple actions , you can only do 1 ACTIVE action per turn however you can make multiple reflexive actions like rolling to oppose everything or expending blood as long as it doesnt require you to iniciate an extra roll.

            Lets talk about damage
            I use only two kind of damages superficial and agravated

            Superficial damage is what it doesnt sufices to kill you but can knock you out of cold , vampires half all superficial damage that doesnt hit in the head , the hearth or comes from a supernatural weapon like protean claws.This damage can be healed at the cost of 1 blood point per injury.

            Agravated damage is rare only deal by high level disciplines (Lv4+) sometimes under conditions like the victim having a lower and banes (Fire , Silver , Sunlight etc...).It heals at the cost of 2 extra blood point per night upon waking

            Design notes
            This combat system is designed to be fast but fair , you cannot win against someone who has 5 dots more in a category than you becuase the difference is to big unless you cheat...Ambushes , bringing a weapon , numeric superiority , bring the bane of a character like dragonbreath ammo and abuse the power of distance

            World of darkness is fair and cruel so it favours the cheaters.
            Last edited by Leandro16; 09-25-2019, 02:27 AM.


            Hunger pool

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
              Leandro´s combat system...
              I do loves me my Leandro's combat system. Ours are very similar, actually. It's the sign of an enlightened mind. And he's convinced me it's possible to present something novel in a very brief way, so I'll be less cryptic than I was above. There are obviously going to be a lot of "special case" rules, exceptions, etc. (grappling, biting, multiple opponents, etc.) but this is the basic outline:

              Legendre's Combat System

              Initiative: Wits + Alterness + Auspex. Old system was static, new system adds 1d3. Initiative only affects declaration of actions, not their resolution. Certain disciplines (Celerity 4 - "Foresight", Auspex 5B - "Precognitive Sense") let you automatically "win" initiative.

              Combat Rolls: Characters contest their Combat Totals (CBT) against each other by rolling 1D6+CBT. The victor "hits". Brawl v. Brawl ties are mutual hits; Melee v. Melee ties are mutual misses; Melee vs. Brawl/Evade, ties go to Melee; Brawl vs Evade tie goes to Evade. CBTs are calculated as follows:
              • Brawl, Melee, Thrown=Dexterity + Applicable Skill
              • Grapple = Strength + Potence + Brawl
              • Evade (purely defensive) = Dexterity + Dodge
              • Guns = Dex + Firearms + Weapon modifications
              Damage Rolls: The winner(s) of the combat rolls in each engagement roll a 1D6 and add their Damage Total (DMT). The loser rolls their Soak Total (Stamina+Fortitude+Dodge). DMTs are figured as follows:
              • Brawl= Strength+Potence+Brawl
              • Melee = Strength + Potence + Melee + Weapon
              • Guns = Firearms skill + Gun/Ammo DMT modifiers
              • Thrown = Strength + Potence + Throwing + Weapon mod.
              Every single attack that a character has has a pair of calculated-in-advanced damage values -- a "HIGH" value and a "LOW" value. If the damage-causing character wins this second roll, he inflicts "HIGH" damage. If he ties or loses, he inflicts "LOW."

              Fortitude: Fortitude in my games reduces all normal damage taken 1:1. So if you have Fortitude 5, not only is your soak going to be higher (causing more people to hit you with LOW damage) but you're going to take 5 points off the top of every attack.

              Advantage: My homebrew system uses an Advantage System that lets you claim advantage for any of a very large number of reasons. Advantage lets you roll two dice, take the highest one, and add +1 to your final result. Advantage is given for things like having more activated Celerity than your opponents (can affect both CBT *and* DMT), spending willpower, having tactical advantages (what Leandro calls "cheating"), etc. Only one person can ever have Advantage. If one person has three reasons to claim advantage, and the second person only has one, then the first person simply has Advantage. He doesn't have two advantages. If both people have one reason to claim advantage, then no one has advantage.

              Health Levels: Vampires have additional health levels. They've got names that I won't recite here, but the modifiers are: Unharmed/0/0/0/-1/-1/-1/-2/-3/-5/incap.

              That's the short and sweet explanation. So if it all makes perfect sense, you can stop here. But if you'd like to see what it looks like... here's a quick example with my Chronicle's two eldest Brujah NPC's duking it out. It's a little something I wrote for my players when they were learning the system. They're elders, so the fight drags on a little more than normal.


              Julian steps out from the shadows. “I’m afraid,” he says, looking sadly at Frederico, “That my visit isn’t entirely social.” He reaches out and softly shuts the door, closing the two of you in the library.
              Frederico rises from his desk. “So it is social in part, is that it? Which part would that be?”
              There is a long pause as Julian stares at Frederico with empty eyes; after what seems like minutes, he simply shakes his head.
              Frederico tilts his head. “You’re the one who killed Ali.”
              Julian pulls his lips in and widens his eyes, nodding slightly in acknowledgement.
              Frederico asks, “Why?” The pain in his voice is real.
              Julian shrugs, his seeming reluctance washing away from him. “I wasn’t given a choice.”
              Frederico nods. “I understand.”


              Julian draws his Short Swords…
              Frederico draws his Antique Cavalry Sabre…

              ROUND 1:
              Initial Blood Expenditures
              Frederico pumps three points into Dexterity. DEX=6:POOL=15
              Julian pumps one point into Dexterity. DEX=6:POOL=15


              Declarations
              Julian has an initiative of at least 7.
              Frederico has an initiative of at least 7.
              Julian rolls Initiative: 2 + 7 = 9
              Frederico rolls Initiative: 3 + 7 = 10


              Frederico will attack with his sabres.
              Julian will attack with his swords.
              NOTE: Julian possesses Celerity 4 (Foresight) so will automatically win all initiative contests in rounds in which he has activates Celerity. Declaring use of this power commits the power user to spending blood on Celerity. No further initiative rolls will be made unless Julian chooses not to use this power.


              Julian says, “You can’t win. I’m going to open you, Frederico, open you and leave you for the sun. Please know that I regret it.”
              Frederico nods gravely and says, “I always knew it would come to this, but I did not know why. Is there anything else you wish to tell me?”
              Julian smiles thinly. “Emerson sends his regards.”
              Frederico sighs. “Adios, old friend.”


              Unopposed Actions
              There are no unopposed actions.

              Combat Contests
              Julian spends one blood point to activate Celerity. POOL: 14
              Julian has a Celerity stat of at least 5.
              Julian claims Advantage.

              Julian attacks with his Short Swords:
              • CBT: 11
              • DMT: 12
              • HIGH: 7
              • LOW: 4
              Frederico attacks with his Antique Cavalry Sabre:
              • CBT: 10
              • DMT: 16
              • HIGH: 10
              • LOW: 7

              Julian rolls with Advantage.
              ROLL 1: 4, Total 16
              ROLL 2: 2, Total 14


              Frederico rolls:
              ROLL: 3, Total 13

              Julian wins.

              Damage Contests:
              Frederico has a Soak stat of at least 9.

              Julian rolls damage with his Short Swords (with Advantage):
              ROLL 1: 1, Total 14
              ROLL 2: 3, Total 16


              Frederico rolls his Soak.
              ROLL: 5, Total 14.

              Frederico has a Fortitude of at least 2.

              Apply Wounds and Penalties
              Frederico takes 7 levels of regular damage, but prevents two (5 in total)
              Frederico is now HURT (-1, 80% move)

              Discipline/Power Use:
              No one is using disciplines or powers this Round.

              Final Blood Expenditures:
              Julian and Frederico both pass.

              Julian launches himself at Frederico in a blur, his blades making a deep, throbbing hum as they tear through the resisting air.
              Frederico stands motionless, waiting… then at the last second raises his sabre and slices at the indistinct figure racing around him, there is a clash of metal… perhaps two or three clashes, but they all blend together into an instant of collision.
              Julian’s off hand blade finds its mark, ripping into Frederico’s side and spraying his blood across the wall. As Frederico tries to parry, Julian’s other blade also bites deep, plunging into Frederico’s left thigh. Julian appears suddenly on the other side of Frederico, taking a brief instant to assess the damage from this first exchange.
              Frederico turns to face Julian from this new direction, his wounds knitting even as he does so. “How many times do you think you can do that, Fletcher?”
              Julian flashes a feral grin at the taller Spaniard. “How many’s it going to take?” And he disappears into a blur once again…


              ROUND 2:
              Initial Blood Expenditures.
              Frederico heals two levels of regular damage. POOL=13
              Frederico is now Bruised (no penalty)
              Frederico pumps one point into Stamina. STA=5:POOL=12
              Julian pumps one point into Dexterity. DEX=7:POOL=13


              Declarations:
              Julian uses Foresight.

              Frederico is going to attack with his sabre again.
              Julian is also going to attack with his swords again.

              Unopposed Actions:
              There are no unopposed actions.

              Combat Contests
              Julian spends one blood point to activate Celerity. POOL=12

              Julian shows his Short Swords (updated stats)
              • CBT: 12
              • DMT: 12
              • HIGH: 7
              • LOW: 4
              Frederico attacks with his Antique Cavalry Sabre (same stats)
              • CBT: 10
              • DMT: 16
              • HIGH: 10
              • LOW: 7
              Julian rolls with Advantage.
              ROLL 1: 3, Total 16
              ROLL 2: 2, Total 15


              Frederico rolls:
              ROLL: 6, Total 16

              Mutual misses (Melee vs. Melee).

              Damage Contests:
              None.

              Apply Wounds and Penalties
              None.

              Discipline/Power Use:
              No one is using disciplines or powers this Round.

              Final Blood Expenditures:
              None.

              Once again Frederico is surrounded by the vortices of Julian’s passing, and the hum of his swords. Papers fly up off the desk and swirl about the ceiling.
              Frederico swings about more wildly this time, casting about at the movements around him in what seems like slow motion. But the motion stops with a tremendous, shocking crash as both of Julian’s blades are caught on the guard of Frederico’s sabre, and the Spaniard takes that instant to push the shorter elder back across the room, gaining some distance.
              Frederico shakes his head coyly. “I don’t need to be as fast as you, Fletcher. I’ve seen you fight.”
              Julian shrugs indifferently, his swords spinning about in his hands. “Lucky. You’re not as good as your sire was, and I could take him.”
              Frederico’s expression darkens as he raises his sabre into a higher guard and moves closer. “Could you?” Then the dance begins again…


              ROUND 3:
              Initial Blood Expenditures:
              Frederico pumps three points into Strength. STR=7:POOL=9
              Julian pumps one point into Dexterity. DEX=8:POOL=11


              Declarations:
              Julian is not spending blood on Celerity this round.
              Julian rolls Initiative: 1 + 7 = 8
              Frederico rolls Initiative: 2 + 7 = 9


              Frederico is attempting to grapple.
              Julian is attacking with his Short Swords.

              Unopposed Actions:
              There are no unopposed actions.

              Combat Contests:
              Julian shows his Short Swords (updated stats)
              • CBT: 13
              • DMT: 12
              • HIGH: 7
              • LOW: 4
              Frederico shows his Brawl for a Grapple attempt: (Only CBT is relevant when initiating a grapple)
              • CBT: 9
              • DMT: 15
              • HIGH: 9
              • LOW: 7
              Julian attacks with his Short Swords (with Advantage):
              ROLL 1: 4, Total 18
              ROLL 2: 5, Total 19


              Frederico doesn't bother rolling since he can't possible beat that.

              Damage Contests:
              Frederico has a Soak stat of at least 10.

              Julian rolls damage with his Short Swords:
              ROLL: 3, Total 15

              Frederico rolls his Soak.
              ROLL: 6, Total 16.

              Apply Wounds and Penalties:
              Frederico takes 4 levels of regular damage, but prevents two (2 in total)
              Frederico is now HURT (-1, 80% move)

              Discipline/Power Use:
              No one is using disciplines or powers this Round.

              Final Blood Expenditures:
              None.

              Growing frustrated at his inability to land a blow, Frederico lowers his shoulder and charges at Julian, clearly intending to bowl over the smaller vampire and crush him to the floor.
              Julian deftly sidesteps the charge, and like a matador slides his blade deep into Frederico’s back as he charges by.
              Julian cries out, “Toro! Toro!” – the Spanish words sounding bizarre in his faint English accent.
              Frederico stops his charge and swivels about, his sabre coming up instinctively. “Nice move.”
              Julian smiles cruelly. “I’ve watched you fight, too, Freddy.”
              And then they’re back at it.


              ROUND 4:
              Initial Blood Expenditures
              Frederico heals two levels of regular damage. POOL=7
              Frederico is now Bruised (no penalty)
              Frederico pumps one point into Stamina. STA=6:POOL=6
              Julian pumps one point into Dexterity. DEX=9:POOL=10
              Julian spends one blood point to activate Celerity. POOL=9

              Frederico despairs as Julian's Dexterity climbs to nine.

              (*) PHASE 2: DECLARATIONS
              Julian automatically wins initiative.

              Frederico will attack with his sabre.
              Julian will attack with his Short Swords.

              Unopposed Actions:
              There are no unopposed actions.

              Combat Contests:
              Julian shows his Short Swords (updated stats)
              • CBT: 14
              • DMT: 12
              • HIGH: 7
              • LOW: 4
              Frederico shows his Short Swords (updated stats)
              • CBT: 10
              • DMT: 19
              • HIGH: 12
              • LOW: 8
              Frederico spends a Willpower Point to gain Advantage. TOTAL: 7/8.
              Julian spends a Willpower Point to gain Advantage. TOTAL: 4/5.

              Julian attacks with his Short Swords (with Advantage):
              ROLL 1: 3, Total 18
              ROLL 2: 1, Total 16


              Frederico doesn't bother rolling as he can't win.

              Damage Contests:
              Frederico has a Soak stat of at least 11.

              Julian rolls damage with his Short Swords (with Advantage):
              ROLL 1: 4, Total 17
              ROLL 2: 6, Total 19


              Frederico rolls his Soak.
              ROLL: 3, Total 14

              Apply Wounds and Penalties:
              Frederico takes 7 levels of regular damage, but prevents two (5 in total)
              Frederico is now MAULED (-3, 25% move)


              Discipline/Power Use:
              No one is using disciplines or powers this Round.

              Final Blood Expenditures:
              None.

              Sensing what he perceives as fragility beneath Frederico’s bravado, Julian silently begins another round of assaults, his blades dancing in and out of Frederico’s defenses. He seems to be everywhere at once – on the right, on the left… and small cuts open all over Frederico as Julian searches for the decisive opening.
              Frederico’s calm is eerie – he simply takes blow after blow as he tries to track Julian’s movements. A counterattack is launched here, then there – none of them finding any purchase against the whirlwind of steel that spins around him.
              Finally, Julian sees his opening, and leaps onto Frederico’s shoulders, plunging both blades deep into his torso, halfway severing his neck as he vaults off the Spaniard's shoulders and lands on his feet.
              The mighty Brujah elder, vitae dripping onto the floor from his wounds, falls to one knee as his flesh begins to knit once again.
              Julian turns his head to look back at Frederico contemptuously. “It’s over now.”
              Frederico does not answer, but his hands clench in fists as he rises to his feet.


              ROUND 5:
              Initial Blood Expenditures
              Frederico heals three levels of regular damage. POOL=3
              Frederico is now HURT (-1, 80% move)
              Julian pumps one point into Dexterity. DEX=10:POOL=8 (NOTE: STAT CAP REACHED)
              Julian spends one blood point to activate Celerity. POOL=7

              Declarations:
              Julian automatically wins initiative.

              Frederico declares Evade, and use of Presence 2A ("Dread Gaze").
              Julian will attack with his Short Swords.

              Unopposed Actions:
              There are no unopposed actions.

              Combat Contests:
              Julian shows his Short Swords (updated stats)
              • CBT: 15
              • DMT: 12
              • HIGH: 7
              • LOW: 4
              Frederico shows his Evade:
              • Evade: 9 (8 with penalties)
              Julian automatically wins.

              <OOC> Frederico says, “You auto hit. But I’m going to spend WP to cancel your Celerity advantage on the Soak.”
              <VERIFY> Frederico spends a willpower point. TOTAL: 6/8
              <OOC> Julian says, “You dick. I need that to resist your Presence! GAAAAHHHH!!!!!!!!!!”
              <OOC> Julian lets you cancel his DMT advantage.

              Damage Contests:
              Frederico spends a Willpower Point to gain Advantage. TOTAL: 6/8.
              Julian's Celerity Advantage is cancelled.

              Frederico has a Soak stat of at least 11 (10 with penalties)

              Julian rolls damage with his Short Swords:
              ROLL 1: 2, Total 14

              Frederico rolls his Soak.
              ROLL: 5, Total 15

              Frederico wins.

              Apply Wounds and Penalties:
              Frederico takes 4 levels of regular damage, but prevents two (2 in total)
              Frederico is now WOUNDED (-2, 35% move)

              Power Use:
              Frederico has Charisma + Intimidation of at least 7. (5 with penalties)
              Julian's Willpower divided by two is 2.
              Frederico spends a Willpower Point to gain Advantage. TOTAL: 5/8.
              Julian uses the Power Modifier (MULTI) to spend 2 Willpower Points and gain +5 on his roll. TOTAL: 5/8.

              Frederico rolls with a value of 5 (with advantage).
              ROLL 1: 1, Total 7
              ROLL 2: 5, Total 11


              Julian rolls with a value of 7.
              ROLL: 3, Total 10.

              Frederico wins.

              Final Blood Expenditures:
              None.

              Julian laughs lightly, then disappears again into a hazy smear of motion and wind. Small cuts begin to erupt on Frederico as the blades bite – shallow at first, then deeper.
              Frederico can’t avoid the blades, and he doesn’t even really try. Instead, he steels himself against their impact and waits for the killing blow. Then it happens, Julian brings a blade down on Frederico’s shoulder, cleaving halfway to his heart. His clothes bloody and in tatters, Frederico reaches up and grabs the naked blade with his bare left hand.
              Julian brings the second blade down on Frederico’s other shoulder, again biting deep.
              Frederico’s knees almost buckle from the impact, but he reaches up with his right hand and grabs the other blade. Holding them immobile, he narrows his brow. The air in the room thickens, and feels with an oppressive sense of dread. Suddenly, Frederico hisses, fangs exposed, and waves of rage and dominance spill out, washing across Prince Julian.
              Julian releases his swords, stumbling back beneath the strength of Frederico’s presence. He turns to flee… stopping himself at the doorway to the study. Hunched, he pulls the door halfway open, then looks back at the seething rage of Frederico Montoya, childe of Rodrigo. For a moment, it looks like he might shut the door and attack again, but only for a moment. With a cry of fear mixed with frustration and rage, the Prince of the Valley is gone into the night.
              Frederico stands immobile, eyes closed, trying to resist the terrible hunger that consumes him. After a long while, he reaches up and pulls the swords out of his body. Falling to his knees, he begins to lick up the spatters and globs of his own vitae that lie on the floor. Just a little bit, he reassures himself, burning with embarrassment at his predicament. Just enough to take the edge off…


              FINAL STATUS:
              FIGHT RESULT: DRAW
              Frederico: WOUNDED (-2, 35% move), 5/8 Willpower, 3/18 Blood Pool
              Julian: Unhurt, 2/5 Willpower, 7/16 Blood Pool
              Last edited by Legendre; 09-25-2019, 03:12 AM. Reason: Added spoiler tags

              Comment


              • #8
                Rather than reinventing the wheel with new mechanics I would suggest modifying the Storytelling approach.

                If fights take too long, that means there are too many fights in the game. A fight should be a boss fight or mini-boss situation rather than mob #37-A. If a boss fight or mini-boss fight is over too quickly then it is underselling the opponent. On the other hand mook fights only have value taking a while if you are specifically storytelling the surviving by the skin of your teeth kind of game. So when in doubt strip out the mook fights by hand waving or allowing alternative answers than direct combat.

                Sure there are games and players that just really want to flex those power fantasy muscles, but you can do something similar by allowing the PCs the option to plan things and essentially win a fight before they ever step onto the battlefield.

                Weave into the story the option to Dominate/Manipulate a third party into fighting the enemy. Allow the PCs to prepare the battlefield ahead of time so the "fight" is more of leading an enemy to their own destruction than a personal duel. Use environmental options to quickly end the fight so that rather than having a prolonged fight you have to put it on hold for a later date. Additionally you might want to look into win/loss conditions beyond surviving, like delaying the enemy past a certain time creates the win rather than killing them outright.

                For a V20 example of what I am talking about I had a Tremere enforcer in my game who specialized in Path of Conjuring. The character had a background in chemistry and engineering. This meant that it was ridiculously easy to turn a building into a death trap by creating some really nasty explosives or just collapsing the building on the enemy by understanding the structural supports.
                The coterie members would usually lead the enemy into the prepared trap or run interference and distract the enemy while the Tremere set things up. In another situation a fight took place on a bridge and the tremere ended up collapsing it to end the fight because dawn was coming and all they needed to win was delay the enemy rather than outright defeat them in combat.

                Conversely in an all Assamite game I ran, out of the entire coterie only one assassin had focused on close range combat. All the others focused on combat at range or under specific circumstances. One member was a sniper, as such setting up sniper hides and planning traps was his way of fighting enemies over a mile away. An example of how they defeated an elder was to shoot him in the head while he was giving a speech at a late night board meeting with all his mortal CEOs in attendance. Sure the bullet couldn't kill him but it forced the Elder to deal with "publicly getting killed" which meant he had to put all his plans on hold while he transferred all his holdings to new names and memory wipe a few people. In the end the elders plans were set back by about a decade since the "assassination" took place at a key time in his business plans. Of course with such a hit to his power base and a loss of face in such a public manner, he was now much easier to attack since the other local kindred saw the moment of weakness and pressed their advantage. Thus a single bullet triggered a series of events which destabilized the local power structure. All without prolonged dice rolling or convoluted mechanics wrangling.

                In short the mechanics for combat can be clunky, but they only apply if you don't look for other options.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Not my own creation, but actually on Page 127+ of the V20 Dark Ages Companion (And quite unknown/overlooked. It can't be mentioned often enough):

                  1) Initiative order only gets rolled once and stays the same during the entire combat. Actions like delaying etc. can permanently change the initiative order for future rounds.
                  2) Attack and defensive maneuvers get rolled normally.
                  3) Damage and soak are automated:
                  • Damage value: Weapon's damage rating (including potence etc.) + difference between attack roll and defensive roll.
                  • Soak value: Stamina + Armor + Fortitude. Usual bashing/Lethal/agg rules against different types of creature apply.
                  • Hardening rule:
                    • The 'hardened' rating of a character is half their soak rating
                    • If the damage, before soak, is over that rating, the target gets at least 1 damage, even if soaking everything


                  And there you go. A neat efficient combat speedup straight out of an official book.


                  cWoD Dice Probability Chart ||| cWoD Dice Statistics Calculator ||| cWoD Alternative Armor System
                  cWoD Alternative Damage Roll System ||| My explanation of cWoD Damage Levels ||| 'Interesting' Strength Attribute Stuff
                  EXPLOSIVE cWoD STUFF! ||| How Technocrats don't think they are Mages

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Chronicles of darkness combat Is waaaay Better than oWoD's. And it's super easy to convert it. I would start from that.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I mean, the optional system Ambrosia mentioned is basically converting the CofD combat basics to the WoD, with more of concern on not mucking around too much with the assumed value of things (Dex is still to-hit and to-dodge, defense is still rolled, Stamina to soak instead of health, etc); since it means not having to rewrite as many of the rules compared towards moving farther towards the CofD's system (which would mean having to redo all sorts of things).

                      The Hardening rule is the only thing that seems unnecessarily complicated. The CofD just made it so normal Soak reducing damage to 0 meant you take 1 Bashing regardless of source damage type, but some damage mitigation powers might let you avoid that. No need to have more calculations to do.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Combat
                        Every character has stat called Combat. This is rated from 1-10, gen max applies.
                        Book standard pcs begin with a 1.
                        Freebie cost: 5.
                        XP cost: same as an Attribute.

                        Encounter Sequence
                        Each side declares their goal.
                        Everybody rolls their Combat, difficulty set by ST based on goal. Willpower allowed.
                        Add together the successes for all the combatants on each side, and compare to see which side wins.

                        Three possible outcomes:
                        Yay! If your side has more successes than the other sides' successes.
                        You achieve your stated goal against one enemy combatant for each extra success rolled.
                        Lowest combat score hit first.

                        Eek! If the other side has more successes than you.
                        Your opponents achieve their goals. Next time just run away.

                        Meh! If no one has more successes than anybody else.
                        Nothing much happens, except running around and, maybe, awkwardly slapping at one another.

                        Setting Difficulty
                        (Difficulty base and minimum are 1.)
                        You have more combatants than the opposition: -1 difficulty per added combatant
                        Power imbalance (mortals v vampires, elders v ghouls, etc): -1 to -5
                        Equipment bonus (fancy guns, etc. for most of your group): -1 to -5
                        Surprised, Ambushed, etc.: -1 to -3
                        Environmental advantages, like being above: -1 to -5
                        Frenzy!: you are a side of one, your goal is either fight or flight
                        ST fiat: -10 to +10 (it's good to be the king.)

                        Goal difficulty adjustments:
                        "We want to kill them!": +6
                        "We want to capture them!": +5
                        "We want to feed on them! But, like, leave them alive, ya know!": +4
                        "We want to severely wound or stake them!: +3
                        "We want to rough them up!": +2
                        "You kids get off of my lawn!": +1
                        "1,2,3,4. I declare a thumb war!": 0
                        "We avoid being damaged!: -2
                        "I don't want to fight you!": -4
                        "Run away! Run away!": -8

                        Outcomes by character type:
                        (No such thing as health levels. No such thing as Agg-Lethal-Superficial.)
                        Mortal:
                        Kill means dead.
                        Severely wound means dead, unless immediate, professional medical attention, which makes it Roughed Up.
                        Roughed Up means -1 to all dice pools per extra success spent on the effect. Heal in one month.
                        Lightly wounded removes all willpower. Regain as usual. Reduce Appearance to 1 until WP refilled.
                        Ghoul:
                        Kill means dead, unless immediate, professional medical attention, which makes it Severely Wounded.
                        Severely wounded means -1 to all dice pools per extra success spent on the effect. Heal in one week, or three blood.
                        Roughed up removes all willpower. Regain as usual. Reduce Appearance to 1 until WP refilled or one blood.
                        Lightly wounded removes 1/2 of remaining willpower. Regain as usual.
                        Vampire:
                        Kill means driven into torpor.
                        Severely wounded means -1 to all dice pools per extra success spent on the effect. Heal with 3 bp.
                        Roughed up removes half of bloodpool in autohealing.
                        Lightly wounded removes 1/2 of remaining willpower. Heal with 1 bp per willpower, or regain as usual.

                        Notes on disciplines:

                        Celerity:
                        On combat roll: reduce difficulty by score in Celerity, double if running away.
                        Out of combat: take an auto-success on all Dex rolls per level.

                        Potence:
                        On combat roll: reduce difficulty by score in Potence, double score if if using fists or muscle powered weapons.
                        Out of combat: take an auto-success on all Str rolls per level.

                        Fortitude:
                        In combat: if you don't like the outcome of combat, roll Fortitude score, difficulty 6. With any successes, combat never happened. Do over. Usable once per combatant. Once your side agrees to retry, the new result sticks, even if worse. (Unless there is more than one person with Fortitude, of course.)
                        Out of combat: take an auto-success on all Sta rolls per level.

                        Environmental Damage:

                        When exposed to environmental damage (sun, fire, chemicals, etc.) treat the environment as a combat group.

                        Intensity determines Combat score, again from 1-10.
                        1 is twilight, 10 is full noon on a sunny day.

                        Treat vampires as mortals for sources that would be agg damage.

                        Example:

                        1. Andy and Bob (two vampires) attack Chris and Dave (two other vampires).

                        AB team goal is "Kill them!" (difficulty 7)... (base 1+6)
                        Andy: combat 3, rolls 1 successes. Bob: combat 4
                        , rolls 2 successes. Team total=3

                        CD team goal is "Run away!" (difficulty 1)... (base 1, -8, but minimum 1)
                        Chris: combat 3, rolls 3 successes. Bob: combat 4
                        , rolls 4 successes. Team total=7

                        CD has beaten AB by a margin of 4. CD manages to escape the scene.

                        2. Ed and Frannie (two vampires) attack Gary and Haqim (two other vampires).

                        EFteam goal is "Rough them up!" (difficulty 4)... (base 1+3)
                        Ed: combat 3, rolls 2 successes. Frannie: combat 4
                        , rolls 2 successes. Team total=4

                        GH team goal is "Kill them!" (difficulty 1)... (base 1, +6 to kill, -8 because Haqim is 3rd gen)
                        Gary: combat 3, rolls 3 successes. Haqim: combat 10
                        , rolls 10 successes. Team total=13

                        GH has beaten EF by a margin of 9. Ed and Frannie are beaten into torpor.

                        3. Itzak (a human) is attacked by Jakob, Katya, and Lebel (vampires)

                        Team I goal is "I don't want to fight you!" (diff 1)... (base 1... "don't wanna fight" -4)
                        Itzak: combat 5 rolls, 5 successes Team total=5

                        Team JKL goal is "We want to feed, but not kill!" (diff 1)... (base 1... feed +4... more powerful -3.. -2 for more people)
                        Jakob: combat 3, rolls 3 successes; Katya combat 4, rolls 3; Lebel, combat 5, rolls 4 Team total=10

                        JKL has beaten I, and all three may feed on him as they wish.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                          Combat
                          Every character has stat called Combat. This is rated from 1-10, gen max applies.
                          Book standard pcs begin with a 1.
                          Freebie cost: 5.
                          XP cost: same as an Attribute.

                          Encounter Sequence
                          Each side declares their goal.
                          Everybody rolls their Combat, difficulty set by ST based on goal. Willpower allowed.
                          Add together the successes for all the combatants on each side, and compare to see which side wins.

                          Three possible outcomes:
                          Yay! If your side has more successes than the other sides' successes.
                          You achieve your stated goal against one enemy combatant for each extra success rolled.
                          Lowest combat score hit first.

                          Eek! If the other side has more successes than you.
                          Your opponents achieve their goals. Next time just run away.

                          Meh! If no one has more successes than anybody else.
                          Nothing much happens, except running around and, maybe, awkwardly slapping at one another.

                          Setting Difficulty
                          (Difficulty base and minimum are 1.)
                          You have more combatants than the opposition: -1 difficulty per added combatant
                          Power imbalance (mortals v vampires, elders v ghouls, etc): -1 to -5
                          Equipment bonus (fancy guns, etc. for most of your group): -1 to -5
                          Surprised, Ambushed, etc.: -1 to -3
                          Environmental advantages, like being above: -1 to -5
                          Frenzy!: you are a side of one, your goal is either fight or flight
                          ST fiat: -10 to +10 (it's good to be the king.)

                          Goal difficulty adjustments:
                          "We want to kill them!": +6
                          "We want to capture them!": +5
                          "We want to feed on them! But, like, leave them alive, ya know!": +4
                          "We want to severely wound or stake them!: +3
                          "We want to rough them up!": +2
                          "You kids get off of my lawn!": +1
                          "1,2,3,4. I declare a thumb war!": 0
                          "We avoid being damaged!: -2
                          "I don't want to fight you!": -4
                          "Run away! Run away!": -8

                          Outcomes by character type:
                          (No such thing as health levels. No such thing as Agg-Lethal-Superficial.)
                          Mortal:
                          Kill means dead.
                          Severely wound means dead, unless immediate, professional medical attention, which makes it Roughed Up.
                          Roughed Up means -1 to all dice pools per extra success spent on the effect. Heal in one month.
                          Lightly wounded removes all willpower. Regain as usual. Reduce Appearance to 1 until WP refilled.
                          Ghoul:
                          Kill means dead, unless immediate, professional medical attention, which makes it Severely Wounded.
                          Severely wounded means -1 to all dice pools per extra success spent on the effect. Heal in one week, or three blood.
                          Roughed up removes all willpower. Regain as usual. Reduce Appearance to 1 until WP refilled or one blood.
                          Lightly wounded removes 1/2 of remaining willpower. Regain as usual.
                          Vampire:
                          Kill means driven into torpor.
                          Severely wounded means -1 to all dice pools per extra success spent on the effect. Heal with 3 bp.
                          Roughed up removes half of bloodpool in autohealing.
                          Lightly wounded removes 1/2 of remaining willpower. Heal with 1 bp per willpower, or regain as usual.

                          Notes on disciplines:

                          Celerity:
                          On combat roll: reduce difficulty by score in Celerity, double if running away.
                          Out of combat: take an auto-success on all Dex rolls per level.

                          Potence:
                          On combat roll: reduce difficulty by score in Potence, double score if if using fists or muscle powered weapons.
                          Out of combat: take an auto-success on all Str rolls per level.

                          Fortitude:
                          In combat: if you don't like the outcome of combat, roll Fortitude score, difficulty 6. With any successes, combat never happened. Do over. Usable once per combatant. Once your side agrees to retry, the new result sticks, even if worse. (Unless there is more than one person with Fortitude, of course.)
                          Out of combat: take an auto-success on all Sta rolls per level.

                          Environmental Damage:

                          When exposed to environmental damage (sun, fire, chemicals, etc.) treat the environment as a combat group.

                          Intensity determines Combat score, again from 1-10.
                          1 is twilight, 10 is full noon on a sunny day.

                          Treat vampires as mortals for sources that would be agg damage.

                          Example:

                          1. Andy and Bob (two vampires) attack Chris and Dave (two other vampires).

                          AB team goal is "Kill them!" (difficulty 7)... (base 1+6)
                          Andy: combat 3, rolls 1 successes. Bob: combat 4
                          , rolls 2 successes. Team total=3

                          CD team goal is "Run away!" (difficulty 1)... (base 1, -8, but minimum 1)
                          Chris: combat 3, rolls 3 successes. Bob: combat 4
                          , rolls 4 successes. Team total=7

                          CD has beaten AB by a margin of 4. CD manages to escape the scene.

                          2. Ed and Frannie (two vampires) attack Gary and Haqim (two other vampires).

                          EFteam goal is "Rough them up!" (difficulty 4)... (base 1+3)
                          Ed: combat 3, rolls 2 successes. Frannie: combat 4
                          , rolls 2 successes. Team total=4

                          GH team goal is "Kill them!" (difficulty 1)... (base 1, +6 to kill, -8 because Haqim is 3rd gen)
                          Gary: combat 3, rolls 3 successes. Haqim: combat 10
                          , rolls 10 successes. Team total=13

                          GH has beaten EF by a margin of 9. Ed and Frannie are beaten into torpor.

                          3. Itzak (a human) is attacked by Jakob, Katya, and Lebel (vampires)

                          Team I goal is "I don't want to fight you!" (diff 1)... (base 1... "don't wanna fight" -4)
                          Itzak: combat 5 rolls, 5 successes Team total=5

                          Team JKL goal is "We want to feed, but not kill!" (diff 1)... (base 1... feed +4... more powerful -3.. -2 for more people)
                          Jakob: combat 3, rolls 3 successes; Katya combat 4, rolls 3; Lebel, combat 5, rolls 4 Team total=10

                          JKL has beaten I, and all three may feed on him as they wish.
                          It's a simple system and I like it's more narrative approach, but I see three major problem with this.

                          1: The rest of the character's combat potential is done an injustice, and would be reflected very poorly.
                          2: Existing characters wouldn't have a combat stat.
                          3: Damage to willpower which also seems to potentially a bit excessive, it's not typical type of damage and normally takes a lot of effort to recover.

                          If you want a combat stat it should be a derived stat, to better and more accurately reflect the character's actual combat effectiveness.
                          Last edited by Incarnate; 09-26-2019, 02:24 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post
                            Not my own creation, but actually on Page 127+ of the V20 Dark Ages Companion (And quite unknown/overlooked. It can't be mentioned often enough):

                            1) Initiative order only gets rolled once and stays the same during the entire combat. Actions like delaying etc. can permanently change the initiative order for future rounds.
                            2) Attack and defensive maneuvers get rolled normally.
                            3) Damage and soak are automated:
                            • Damage value: Weapon's damage rating (including potence etc.) + difference between attack roll and defensive roll.
                            • Soak value: Stamina + Armor + Fortitude. Usual bashing/Lethal/agg rules against different types of creature apply.
                            • Hardening rule:
                              • The 'hardened' rating of a character is half their soak rating
                              • If the damage, before soak, is over that rating, the target gets at least 1 damage, even if soaking everything


                            And there you go. A neat efficient combat speedup straight out of an official book.
                            I always wanted to ask: how would this work with the damage done by static sources of damage, like fire? And more specifically, how would it work with Lure of Flames?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Didn't read through all of the previous posts so I don't know if something similar already came up.

                              You roll attack vs doge as you normally would.

                              After that you take your damage dice pool, half it and that is the damage you inflict.
                              Same with the soak pool, half it and that is the amount of damage you soak.
                              (rounding up)
                              ( it's even faster without the /2. But that makes aggravated damage even deadlier.)

                              Originally posted by Cadmiumcadamium View Post
                              However, automatic damage and soak makes Potence and Fortitude nearly worthless (just a more expensive version of an attribute). So question is how to make them useful in that case.
                              Also, how about those edge cases where a character is trained to use fists but with Dexterity rather than Strength?
                              Just like vanilla, you add your discipline dots to relevant dice pools as before. If you spend blood you double that bonus. (that still makes it slightly weaker but it if you change things, well things change^^)

                              That is the easiest way that leads to the quickest game play I could figure out and used successfully in game.( we also use/d it without “/2” but as mentioned without fortitude agg becomes super deadly then^^) Some of the above suggestions seem quiet complicated and therefore slower?

                              On the whole this model is if you want to stick to the V20 rules as close as possible. But to be honest nothing beats using CofD rules instead. But even if you don't do that taking a look at the “down and dirty” rules and implementing them where appropriate should still work out rather well with V20 rules.

                              Also taking a page from V5, when 2 characters attack each other, don't do one attack and then the other, just make an opposed role(attack vs attack), winner does damage.

                              Comment

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