Why the HATRED for Ravnos?

[Mister_Dunpeal]

So, there was nothing they brought to the table alliance wise. In the Star Trek view of things, the Romulans and Klingons may be jerks but they can be useful to the Federation. The Ravnos are just the Ferengi.

Interesting parallel there. The Ferengi initially in TNG weren't nearly the money-grubbing parody they were much later in the series (although to be honest you saw much the same 'one-dimensionalness' afflict other groups like the Klingons as well'. Nevermind the myriad forehead aliens.)

I sometimes wonder if there wasn't some aspect of writing at that time that influenced this sort of thing. A narrative convenience say (you didn't intend to develop them very deeply, so you make them superficially interesting by one or two key qualities and leave it at that.)

[CTPhipps]

Interesting parallel there. The Ferengi initially in TNG weren't nearly the money-grubbing parody they were much later in the series (although to be honest you saw much the same 'one-dimensionalness' afflict other groups like the Klingons as well'. Nevermind the myriad forehead aliens.)

I sometimes wonder if there wasn't some aspect of writing at that time that influenced this sort of thing. A narrative convenience say (you didn't intend to develop them very deeply, so you make them superficially interesting by one or two key qualities and leave it at that.)

As I understand it, they intended the Ferengi to be dangerous pirates and capitalist parodies, obsessed only with profit. The problem was that if you're going to do a menacing capitalist parody in the 1980s, most people think corporations instead of pirates. The general fan reaction was also they were ridiculous rather than frightening with the Borg utterly blowing them away.

So they put a Ferengi in a bar on Deep Space Nine and Armin's natural charm made them a comic relief race.

[Mister_Dunpeal]

As I understand it, they intended the Ferengi to be dangerous pirates and capitalist parodies, obsessed only with profit. The problem was that if you're going to do a menacing capitalist parody in the 1980s, most people think corporations instead of pirates. The general fan reaction was also they were ridiculous rather than frightening with the Borg utterly blowing them away.

So they put a Ferengi in a bar on Deep Space Nine and Armin's natural charm made them a comic relief race.

Eh. Maybe but the first time I saw them I remember them being alot more aggressive (if self serving) in 'The Last Outpost' which is when they were interrupted and this differed much later (particularly if you compare it to say, Quark, from DS9, but also later TNG-era Ferengi apply.)

Here's an article that perhaps explains what I am trying to demonstrate: https://trekmovie.com/2018/03/21/arm...xt-generation/

What we were told about the Ferengi and what we ended up with were like night and day. The Ferengi were going to be the new Klingons. They were never meant to be a comical race; they were meant to be ferocious and menacing. And unfortunately, they hired me to play one of the lead Ferengi, and I failed miserably.

My final performance was not at all what [Star Trek: The Next Generation creator] Gene Roddenberry wanted. By that point, he was rather sick, and he was not on set. But I met him briefly–maybe no more than 30 seconds–when he looked at my makeup and looked at my costume.

“The Last Outpost” was a disaster. And no one one bears the brunt of that mistake more than I do.

'Mercenary capitalist' could still fit in with that but it's clearly something that changed even in later TNG era nevermind DS9.

Now with that perspective in mind the fact Shimerman mentions Roddenberry's involvement we can note that what Gene wanted and what others wanted (from other things I've heard behind the scenes at that time) often differed and many of those involved in Trek wanted to (and later on did) take the series in a very different direction than he decided. So its not implausible to believe that someone had wanted a different vision of the Ferengi than what Roddenberry wanted. Trek of that era was often transitional like that, or so I understand.

This does make me wonder if you've heard other stories that might conflict with this though. That was also a VERY contentious period so I also wouldn't be surprised if there are conflicting accounts floating around.

[CTPhipps]

Weirdly, I don't think our points contradict on that.

[Baron John]

Hi all,

As mentioned in previous posts the original Ravnos were portrayed as a one dimensional and racist stereotype.

In my games I have changed the Ravnos completely so that they are more akin to the VtR Nosderatu clan. Everyone hates them IC because they give off an unnatural feeling of dread so you don't have yo alter the source material and they have the Virtue and Vice flaw from V20 Dark Ages which give them more rp potential.

For example I lifted Max Maurey from VtR Chicago by Night. He is the Ravnos elder that lives in the sewer and holds a court to rival the Prince. He is often referred to as the Prince of the Undercity but Max refuses to acknowledge this title himself as he is a modest old fashioned gent. The Nosferatu Primogen is terrified of him and tries to give him a wide berth, due to Chimistry / Knightmare use, wherever possible. Max has the Virtue flaw of charity which gives him the compulsion to take in every waif and stray. These outcasts see Max as a hero, swell his personal power and prey for the day when Max goes to the surface to give those high clans a good kicking.

The Baron