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Can vampires and humans live together in harmony?

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  • Can vampires and humans live together in harmony?

    I'm STing a game where the masquerade has been lifted all over the world for almost two decades. A war broke out in 2020 where humans hunted in the day and boarded up at night. Every able nation in the world contributed their resources to exterminate the threat. The war did not last long. With modern weapons and surveillance technologies, vampires are all but exterminated. Vampires are now feared and loathed, with estimates of their current population at less than a tenth of their pre-war population. Some humans still hunt vampires for their precious vitae, for their God, or to fulfill bounties. They have no rights as the unliving, and the world by and large has called for a continued genocide of all vampires. Harboring a vampire is seen as an act of sedition/terrorism and the penalty is death. There are vampire sympathisers, but when found, they are executed by authorities or stoned in the streets by neighbors - who are very rarely charged for these acts of vigilantism.

    I would like to emphasise that this is not a dystopia. At least not for the humans - the very opposite, they have benefited greatly from "vamp industries" where the unique properties of vitae have been studied, harvested and sold to rich billionaires who can afford a steady supply through underground markets. As the Times put it, "the very first human immortals currently live among us... in the top 1 per cent". Vampirologists have filled senior positions in prestigious universities where live subjects are poked and prodded so that eternal life can be achieved without the less savory effects of vitae. Scientific progress in the fields of medical biology, bio-technology and bio-chemistry have been the greatest benefactors of the discovery of vitae.

    The current year is 2051, and the coterie is a gang of high humanity vampires who have survived by living underground in sewers or in ocean "bubble communities" near geothermal sources of energy. They have been around since the war, and survived through the kindness of a handful of brave humans - many of whom have already passed or been executed - who also helped build underground/underwater sanctuaries. One young vampire in the coterie (a 20 year old neonate who was embraced as a child) asks if it's possible to change the minds of other humans. If they could convince them there are vampires who would rather starve than harm a human.

    TLDR: Do you think it's possible for vampires and humans to live together in relative peace? And if so, what might that look like?
    P.S. I know about Carthage, but I'm thinking of a modern day equivalent or parallel material. Not Rachel Caine.
    Last edited by lucasstriker; 09-30-2019, 03:12 AM.

  • #2
    I'm one of those who believes Vampire Are Evil. So, it would be harmony in the same sense of harmony as on a Antebellum Southern Plantation, between the owner and the slaves.

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    • #3
      Define harmony. Vampires eat humans. Humans usually kill any threat to them. However Vampires can also promise power and immortality which is what many humans would strife for. It also depends a lot on the vampire Clan in question, i cant see Gangrel and Humans getting along. Toreador and humans might work out MUCH better. Tzimisce would only work if the vampires have the clear upper hand which in your scenario isnt the case.

      So scenarios i can see where this works out:

      Vampires gain very influential rich humans as ghouls and pawns with the promise of power and immortality, in exchange those humans enslave other humans and breed them like cattle for vampire consumption. A society where poor people are not incarcarated but fed to vampires, or indeed a entire new branch of society that is bred, raised and slaughtered like cattle and never has a "human" life to begin with, like breeding farms with humans so that those humans who could rise up are not involved at all.

      In carthage and ages prior vampires were seen as gods and worshipped, which wont be the case in our time anymore. Similiar the powers of vampires arent "outgunning" the mortals anymore either so the 2 biggest pros for vampries are gone. Re establishing a masquerade also seems to not work.

      A different scenario is with the roles reversed, where the powerfull ifnluential humans keep vampires as cattle to have a source of blood to turn themselves into ghouls and thus kinda immortal beings. But they would still have to use some means of achieving blood to feed the vampires.

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      • #4
        Not to be flippant, but I suspect vampires and humans living in harmony will happen sometime after humans learn to live in harmony with other humans.


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        • #5
          Well, in First City, a town where FIRST vampires lived in, your dream became true, but vampires ruled the humans. Many kindreds have tried to rebuild a city like that(Carthage, Constantinople, ...), and none succeeded.

          Harmony? Maybe, when average mortals won’t be so called prey but be equal to vampires in power this may become true. The last but not the least, do not allow a "great leader" or something sxxt to build this kind of world, which will collapse at last.
          Last edited by Rock113; 10-01-2019, 04:28 AM.

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          • #6
            No.

            The only "harmony" predators can have with their prey is the natural one.

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            • #7
              IS this a V:TM Only scenario or a Full WOD with everything and the kitchen sink? From.. a purely V:TMish scenario that is to say there's no umbra, technocracy etc... Vampires... aren't different than the 1 percent. Whether or not you consider unequal systems as harmonious is an issue.

              If you consider everything and the kitchen sink is there.. No one is going to be letting Kindred get back up after they get kicked down. SO it doesn't matter. Though I could imagine something like how the current system in china works actively having the government take over the situation...

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              • #8
                Is this in a V20&pre, or in a V5 environment? I know they seem similar, but some of the mechanics of how vampires work are quite different.

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                • #9
                  In most settings I'd laugh at the idea of peaceful coexistence between bloodsuckers and vampires. In your setting, I can't even fathom a course of events that would even lead to the pipe dream of such a possibility ever presenting itself. It seems like it's just too far gone for such an event. Maybe in a thousand years or so after major civilizations have crumbled, vampires can take hold of powerful positions and start fresh. Maybe.

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                  • #10
                    Assuming that Enoch was really destroyed as an act of divine retribution for Caine daring to rejoin civilization... I'm going to say the answer is objectively "NO," because god himself refuses to let them.

                    Originally posted by The Dreamweaver View Post
                    Maybe in a thousand years or so after major civilizations have crumbled, vampires can take hold of powerful positions and start fresh. Maybe.
                    Actually, that sounds kind of cool for a post apocalyptic setting. Vampires manage to rise up and become the dominant society while humans are reduced to a more primitive existence. And having learned of the kind of threat they pose if left unchecked, the surviving vampires dedicate their resources to ensuring humanity never reclaims its former progress!
                    Last edited by Nyrufa; 09-30-2019, 07:57 PM.

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                    • #11
                      It could work on small scale, as a symbiotic protection relationship. The vampire (s) would act as a guardian for the humans under its protection. Only taking enough blood from each human to satisfy needs, then ensuring protection in from any dangers in the night. They could take more than the amount needed to elevate humans into Ghouls as rewards or like deputies who can assist in the day time.
                      This would not work on a large scale, but like a small town or a family it most certainly could work pretty smoothly. Kinda like a guardian spirit who needs blood to survive. I mean look at the Aztecs they were glad to sacrifice themselves to their gods, and in this arrangement they don't need to die to please these bloodthirsty guardians. And without humans vampires don't get blood. Win-Win.

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                      • #12
                        I mean i'll circle back to it. What people are describing isn't Harmony. Vampires openly ruling as Gods or even Kings isn't Harmony. That's just basic Feudalism. You're just postulating that Vampire can impose stasis on human development. As that failed the first time around.... I don't see it working for the second.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Orkar View Post
                          In carthage and ages prior vampires were seen as gods and worshipped, which wont be the case in our time anymore.
                          I find that to be an incredibly optimistic view of modern humanity. There are most certainly people who would be swayed over to the vampire's side of the issue. Both the young and the old, the healthy and infirm, the selfish and the selfless. There are many fringe benefits that vampires have to offer humans that are willing to look beyond the threat of being used as a food source.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by lucasstriker View Post
                            TLDR: Do you think it's possible for vampires and humans to live together in relative peace? And if so, what might that look like?
                            Just as well as the sheep and the lions do.

                            Or humans and smallpox.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Lian View Post
                              I mean i'll circle back to it. What people are describing isn't Harmony. Vampires openly ruling as Gods or even Kings isn't Harmony. That's just basic Feudalism. You're just postulating that Vampire can impose stasis on human development. As that failed the first time around.... I don't see it working for the second.
                              Wellll... while "harmony" is often used in a poetic (and vernacular) sense to imply perfect peace and love and joy and rainbows and puppies, it really just means that an arrangement has been reached which is accepted by everyone involved, with no real implication whether that arrangement is beneficial for everyone.

                              For example, one of the more complex tasks setting up the EU was writing tax schemes for each member nation that didn't allow people to move money around to avoid their tax bills, or lead to their getting double-taxed. This was called tax harmonization. Notice the lack of idealistic young people drinking Coca-Cola and singing on a hillside, in tax harmonization.

                              In a world where humans are fed and bred like cattle, with all their basic needs provided for in a reasonably comfortable manner, they may come to accept that a lack of freedom and paying the weekly blood tax is the price they pay for being well-fed, comfortable, and war-free. That would be harmony.


                              So, what might harmony look like in a post-masquerade world?


                              From the Week One Bonded Servant School video textbook, "Intro to Modern Service" from Royal Canadian Educational Studios, Southern Dominion University Press, Mankato, Minnesota.
                              Vampires limit their population, through internal policing, to 10% of the total population. We reside in zones called Domains, each of which is the size of a small city, or a neighbourhood of a larger city. Some look like a bustling metropolis, with art galleries, and steel skyscrapers. Some are wooded nature preserves, with rustic cottages, connected by hiking paths. A few are designed to punish criminals (both human and vampire); these feature torture chambers and vast dungeons where vampires can indulge their darker passions.

                              Fledglings are required to serve their elders, and fill most of the positions previously considered to be middle- and upper-class jobs. These jobs (and the educational opportunities necessary to prepare for them) are allocated first on the basis of ability, but if several candidates have the same qualifications, the eldest is always given the position.

                              Working class and laborer positions are filled mostly by Bonded Servants (you may know them as "ghouls"), who are legally bound to a Coterie (a group of three to thirteen vampires) in much the same way minors were subservient to their parents and guardians in the Time Before. A Coterie is legally responsible for the actions of their ghoul, but have the legal right to all of their earnings, if they have a job outside the home. As a ghoul, you also must obey your Coterie in all things.

                              Some Coteries live as an extended family, in a large building from the Time Before such as a hotel or a religious meeting hall, called a "church". Most, of course, just live as neighbors in pleasant, suburban cul-de-sacs or on a shared floor of a high-rise apartment building. Ever since the Inter-Clan Riots of '47-'49 and the subsequent Inter-Clan Concord Act of '51, all Coteries are required to have at least three clans represented among their members.

                              Approximately 85% of vampires belong to a Coterie, mostly for the tax benefits. The remainder live as Autarkis, or in Couple-bonds. You won't be assigned to one of these households, unless you first receive your Advanced Certifications.

                              Most manufacturing, extractive industries, and agriculture has been replaced with a vast new job description: Blood Conjurer. They use the Path of Conjuring to create limitless supplies of previously rare commodities. There is a wide range of status within this profession. The newest vampires, called Mass Conjurers, conjure simple items like fuel, basic foodstuffs, and building materials. After a few decades, they can expect to rise to the status of Skilled Conjurer, and create items requiring more finesse, but still based on a standardized design, like clothing, machine parts, or consumer goods. Few can hope to reach the pinnacle of their craft, a Master Conjurer, who create highly complex items, like computers and medicines, or items of artistic merit, like sculptures or jewelry.

                              Ghouls, like you, are entitled by law to a minimum of living space, food, and appropriate personal supplies and healthcare. Most commonly, a room called an "apartment" is set aside for the use of all the ghouls of the Coterie. If you ever feel you are being cheated of these things, contact your local Revenant Overseer for placement in a new situation. If, however, you misbehave or are lazy, well, do you remember those Punishment Domains I mentioned earlier? You are being given a sacred trust serving vampires, so express your gratitude often and maintain a good attitude. As well, it's best to be on your best behavior at all times, even if you think no one will find out. Remember, as the old song goes, "Vampires can see you when you're sleeping. They know when you're awake!" I'm sure you know the rest.

                              As a Bonded Servant, you have an important and exciting role to play in society. You will...

                              From the Grimaldi Broadcasting Corp's orientation video, "Welcome, to living in the sunlight! Here's how a DPA works!"
                              Revenants are charged with caring for the human population, as well as administering the blood industry. Humans, as a provision of the 2033 Treaty of Ponta Delgada, which ended the Second War of Human Aggression, are required to reside in Diurnal Persons Areas, unless given special permission to travel or reside elsewhere.

                              Most DPAs are located in smaller towns or outlying neighborhoods of major cities built before the Revelation, though the healthiest humans with the most in-demand blood can request a transfer to any DPA. This creates a degree of competition among Revenants to provide the best quality of life to their wards, while still keeping an eye on the bottom line. Recently, beach resorts have seen a building boom as Revenants entice humans to their DPAs with a permanent beach vacation... it's not like vampires enjoy sunbathing! Just last month the Zantosacorp DPA "Honolulu Heights" admitted its hundred-thousandth resident, making it the largest DPA in the world.

                              Humans, of course, have two main jobs to do: donating blood every 48 hours, and creating new humans. The first, with the Multi-Point Lateral Access Hemoport invented by Nobel-prize winner Dr. Adriana Silva de Obertus of Clan Tzimisce, has become as convenient and painless as putting on a glove. The second takes little urging, as the human population has rebounded to a new high of 3 billion people, after hitting a low of 1.1 billion after the First War of Human Aggression in 2022-24.

                              There are many opportunities for service in DPAs. Those humans with special skills (like physicians, security personnel, or fertile women), or those who simply want accommodations above the 1-A Basic Standard, can apply for a working position with their local Revenant hosts. While 1-A provides all the basic necessities of life (from a full 10 square meter residential area, to a satisfying 1800 calories of food daily), paid employment allows a human to earn private quarters, nicer clothing, and a longer grace-period after the age when they are no longer able to produce children or palatable blood.

                              All the smart human females know that the most desirable service position is that of Mother to the World. These lucky young women are transferred to a luxurious compound with gyms, pools, and other amenities. These ladies, with the help of fertility medications, spend their days lounging about, bearing an average of 1.74 children per year. Well done, girls! The MttW compound in St. Moritz boasts a world-class ski slope, and nearly 30 inches of snow each year! The compound in sunny Vancouver offers parasailing and guided tours of the subtropical gardens of Pacific Spirit Park, plus all the Nanaimo bars an expecting mother could want! If you are a healthy female human between the ages of 13 and 24, ask your Revenant overseer about these, and many other exciting locations, today.

                              We take excellent care of the resulting children. After all, they are our future. Children are treated to special children-only KidSafe DPAs, where they are taught basic literacy, numeracy, and tested for possible advancement into a career outside the DPA. If you have experience as a teacher or childcare professional, mention this to your overseer, as we are facing a critical shortage in these fields.

                              Those humans who wish to see the world can apply for repeated changes of DPA, or can enroll in "Project Uplift!". This opportunities-centered program takes promising, young humans with a clean conduct record and places them as a Bonded Servant with a Coterie in a Domain. After twenty years of flawless service, they can attain Senior Ghoul Status and are eligible to enter into a mating contract with a Revenant, or begin applying to local Clan Conclave Offices for possible embrace. (*Some limitations apply. No guarantees are expressed or implied. Check with your local Revenant overseer, or Diurnal Persons Advocate for details.)

                              Sadly, criminality and social discord are, as always, still part of life for humans. If you know of anyone who, as the Taylor Swift-Khan hit song from last year says, is "Rowing In the Wrong Direction" contact your overseer immediately. Usually, these sorts of issues can be handled with a simple transfer to a community the malcontent will find more to their liking. If you notice this sort of troublemaker suddenly leave your area, be happy for them. They are being sent to their happy place.
                              From the Vampire Public Radio program "Up Til Dawn", hosted by Dawn Moss-Coane of Clan Brujah:
                              Not all, of course, is perfect on this anniversary of Revelation Day. Large areas of the globe are still recovering from the wars, including nearly three-quarters of the arable land lost to nuclear fallout from the Sunburst Attacks of 6 November 2024. Luckily, with the efforts of the Conjurers, there is little need for such primitive supply chains.

                              Except for one group. A stubborn minority of humans, estimated at between 100 and 500 million, continue to exist in isolated rural areas under the protection of remaining pockets of Lupine Resistance fighters, or independent vampire overlords.

                              The largest human-led community is located in Dikson, Siberia. This city of 13000 humans (mostly ethnic Russians and Finns, who fled Northward during the wars) is economically self-sufficient, getting their food from the wheat fields and chicken barns which overlook the Sea of Kara. Their fishing fleet operates in waters which are now ice-free eleven months of the year, though the annual catch has seen significant drops over the last few seasons. Hoping to make up the difference, the city's leaders are entering into trade talks with Enrathi Human Resources Corporation, to provide a steady supply of protein-rich food and spare machine parts in exchange for a set number of human babies each year. EHRC stock surged 14 points amid this news.

                              This city, and other settlements around the world, are tolerated by authorities as a quaint throwback to a simpler time. As long as these humans survive amid 19th century squalor, few Kindred see them as a threat. Indeed, scientists have recently argued it's important to maintain "Landrace Humans", as they are known among academics, to maintain genetic diversity among the breeding stock of Domesticated Humans living in DPAs.

                              Of course, any human who desires to enter the DPA system need merely present themself to any Revenant for processing and allocation. Revenant recruitment agents regularly visit Landrace villages seeking volunteers. Given that such villages lack basic sanitation, have highly unstable food supplies, and a life expectancy half that of Domesticated Humans, such recruitment junkets are rarely unsuccessful. It is common for Revenant agents to be greeted with a riot of mothers begging for their children to be taken from the village because of some local calamity, such as endemic famine, local inter-human warfare, or, especially, the resurgent H1N23 influenza epidemic. The single greatest selling point for entering a DPA is that a vaccine exists for this resurgent plague, but can only be legally administered to Domesticated Humans. In our last hour, we discussed whether this constitutes actual consent.

                              Is it possible to have fair trade with mere humans? Is it really possible for someone living under such privation to give consent? They are, after all, only human.

                              It's not only Landrace Humans who reside in the wilderness. There are still those holdout vampires who demand to exist in the vast Empty Lands between Domains. These NeoFeudalists are portrayed in the hit tv series "Tales of the Dobrul Valley" as romantic figures, pioneering new lands for new Domains. building their own DPAs out of Landrace villages with nothing but the labor of their own claws and the bloodsweat of their own brow. Critics point out most NeoFeuds are simply unable to play well with others, or lost entirely to Wassail.

                              But, a few NeoFeudalists are thoughtful vampires seeking a simpler existence.

                              In our next hour, we'll speak with an actual NeoFeudalist, Ingrid Gangrelsdottir of the Isorotoq Independent Vampire Collective. We'll also hear from Gordon Tremayne, of Clan Veddhartha, Crown Minister for Landrace Affairs in AngloQuebec. Then, at the half-hour we'll open the lines for your questions.

                              First, an update on yesterday's tragic midday earthquake in Sapporo, which has left more than 50000 dead...

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