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Can vampires and humans live together in harmony?

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  • #16
    Like, I guess I could see a sort of symboiotic relationship between a high humanity vampire that acts as a guardian for a group of humans. Maybe he offers his blood to ghouls to help the community survive a bit better, and only feeds on occasion from willing individuals. The vampire could even be fairly reclusive, not acting as any sort of leader, figurehead or god-being. I imagine such a situation would be fairly rare, and most often you'd have vampires lording their condition of over humans, but it seems at least theoretically possible to me.
    Last edited by AnubisXy; 10-01-2019, 10:53 PM.

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    • #17
      Some excellent ideas in this post! Thank you so much! I particularly like Nosimplehiway's very descriptive quotes. It helps me flesh out new ideas for the setting.

      It seems the general answer is "no", unless in a small scale arrangement which is already how it worked for my coterie for decades anyway.

      This is V20 - but with V5 as a base plot - but not full-wod. There are werewolves, but I've removed mages and other supernaturals as they complicate things too much. Werewolves I'm happy to leave them in the woods, weakened as humanity becomes stronger through the integration of vitae into their soldiers, laborers and political leaders. Although their existence is mostly in tact - they are still vastly weaker. But it's only 30+ years from today's time so it isn't that much different beyond new bio-weapons and technologies based around the unique properties of vitae. Humanity's need to expand is still voracious and werewolves have suffered as a result. Sea levels have risen - Venice is under water - followed by scorching hot summers. Space travel is progressing very smoothly, now made more bearable with vitae - although astronauts have stayed away from going "full vamp" despite the obvious benefits of not needing oxygen nor a balanced diet of vitamins.

      I don't define harmony as humans and vampires inter-marrying, though I presume it will likely happen eventually. Thin bloods could even have half-breed children. But as Bluecho noted, and Markus from 'Detroit: Beyond Human' noted, "Humans have butchered one another over the color of their skin or whatever God they wanted to worship. They're not going to change. Violence is in their genes." I think it's a miracle if they could establish some sort of system of tolerance - at least at the start. Jealousy and greed will prevent both sides from ever finding true cooperation. After all, how would humans feel if there was a better, immortal versions of themselves stealing their jobs, and never retiring?

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      • #18
        Vampires manage to rise up and become the dominant society while humans are reduced to a more primitive existence. And having learned of the kind of threat they pose if left unchecked, the surviving vampires dedicate their resources to ensuring humanity never reclaims its former progress!
        With a little crossover fun, this could be a pretty interesting scenario, where the Garou (especially the pro-impergium clans) would have the same goal as the dirty dirty wyrm-spawns...

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        • #19
          lucasstriker

          Don't forget to consider the impact disciplines will have on society. The Masquerade means humans learn about vampires, yes. It also means humans learn about vampiric powers and other supernatural creatures who interact with those powers.

          Animalism has the potential to revolutionize animal rights. With the level one power, any ghoul can chat with a cow that's being raised for beef, or ask a dolphin whether they actually enjoy bouncing that beach ball around. The study of animal intelligence, psychology, and ethology will experience a golden age.

          Auspex provides definitive proof that there is a spiritual dimension beyond our physical world. There are a few thousand PhD dissertations worth of research topics in this discipline alone. Criminal justice systems, likewise, will be revolutionized as courtrooms race to establish evidentiary standards for psychic impressions. Civil libertarians will have to grapple with privacy issues, while oppressive regimes extend their surveillance directly into their peoples' minds.

          Presence and Dominate will keep an army of lawyers employed.

          Vicissitude puts plastic surgeons out of business.

          The biggest gamechangers, though, are Thaumaturgy and Necromancy.

          In Thaumaturgy, it's not so much Path of Blood. Utilitarian as it is, it mostly just buffs or nerfs vampires.

          No, I'm talking about Conjuring.

          Conjuring breaks every law of physics, and kills modern science. Beyond the headache it creates for physicists, though, it could crash the world economy, or create a paradise, depending on who controls it. If you're not familiar, the short version of Conjuring is: "a blood point goes in, and an amount of mass, in a shape the user understands, and not exceeding the size of the user comes out". The average human in V20&pre can donate a blood point every other day. So, a vampire skilled in Conjuring, with a single human to feed from, can produce 100 kilos or so of any material or item every other day. Any material. Computers, food, uranium, sarin gas, dog toys, solid gold, or whatever.

          Assuming vampires are fairly numerous, all of the food and water needs of humanity have just been met. Yay! No more famines.

          Except... if a single vampire can provide a great deal more food than the humans he feeds from need to eat, why would there be any farmers in the world? Why any fisherman? Why would bakers, or chefs, or canned vegetable factories exist? If food is universally available, it becomes worthless. Now, what happens after the humans shut down all that food-related industry? First, there is massive unemployment, and the usual social dysfunction and upheaval that creates. Second, vampires will realize humans are entirely dependent on them for their continued survival. Third, humans realize they are entirely dependent on vampires for survival. The order in which those things happen is important.

          At the same time that the food market is being cornered by vampires, every other market for material goods (if not services) will see the same thing happen. One vampire and one human can produce a thousand Rolex watches in a day. Or, 100 kilos of gold, or insulin, or pure, uncut cocaine. Really, the biggest weapon vampires have against humans, if it ever came to war, is just outproducing them. Vampires, collectively, have the power to crash the world economy overnight, at the same time that they can make whatever little patch of land they do control into the most coddled, comfortable, resource-rich society the world has ever seen.

          That patch of land they control is going to seem awfully attractive to the poor humans.

          So, the most likely outcome of a broken masquerade is a world where nothing is manufactured, it is all conjured by book standard fledglings trained as Conjurers.

          Next up is Necromancy's big secret: "Humans don't need to become vampires to become immortal."

          There is an afterlife, and it is a manageable, quantifiable, survivable sort of place. Oh, it's kind of weird, and has different physical laws. But, so what? The bottom line is that even if Grandma dies, she can still come say "hi" on Christmas morning every year.

          The big upset here will be for organized religion. Some religions once insisted the world was flat, and now they don't. Some religions once thought they knew what the afterlife was like, and now... well... they were wrong.

          For some belief systems, this is no big deal. Most modernist and rationalist religions, from Mainline Protestants and Unitarians, to Reform Jews and Buddhists, may have taken some educated guesses on the nature of the afterlife, but it didn't loom large in their religious life. Even some quite conservative sects, while being quite vehement about the existence of heaven and hell, tended to dodge the question of the specific nature of those places.

          The biggest upset will be among those religious groups who really went out on a limb and insisted they knew what the afterlife was like, in some degree of detail. I won't name any names here, but when Necromancy is verified to exist... let's just say there will be a lot of scurrying around to update teachings in Rome and Salt Lake City. They'll weather the changes, too, as they have before, but it will be a rocky ride and their position will be weakened.

          I think it likely that Necromancers may wind up functioning in either a quasi-religious or overtly religious role in a post-masquerade world. After all, a large portion of the promise of western religions is help in managing afterlife prospects. Necromancers are verifiably skilled at doing that.

          Note: This post has presumed a V20&pre environment. Also, everything I said about Necromancy and religion goes double for Path of Spirit Manipulation and religion.

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          • #20
            I think one of the big problems is Vampirism is a source of immortality that is large scale unsustainable.

            If Kindred live openly, even if it's socially and legally accepted, a majority of people will want to become immortal. Expect groups of people to literally kidnap vampires to force embrace. Even if you don't use force, anyone that is dying is going to ask any kindred they can find to save them. Many people will be willing to pay a lot, not just in money but in anything to live forever. Even if that is not the case any mortal relation the kindred make, a lover, a living child, a friend, someone they admire... there would be a powerful incentive to embrace them. And with Kindred no longer dependent on the sects (since with the masquerade broken they would be able to use other security nets, ie they would now be able to rely on the government, family, friends, or just openly purchase blood from people, and they could have a relatively normal night time job) there is nothing stopping individual Kindred from starting to embrace irresponsible. And once that happens it's very easy to come into an exponential flurry of irresponsible embraces, leaving a lot of hungry and less competent freshly embraced kindred degenerating all over the place. I suppose that's when you get purges.

            I guess you could solve that if you had a small and isolated community so you don't break the masquerade.

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            • #21
              Eh, I'm not sure everyone would prioritize 'living forever' especially the way vampires do especially if it means paying some of the prices vampires do. Even if it does you could expect it to be treated the same way other 'luxuries' are in real life (something like that might be available only to the richest of the rich.. which works fine given how many vampires are often wealthy as well.) but I'm not sure even that doesn't have risks (blood bond comes to mind...)

              Alternately, if we figure the Invisible Hand of Capitalism comes into its ideal, vampires are hunted, captured, then mliked for their vitae in a way that provides those who can afford it their immortality (and probably kills off the vampire after they've been 'milked' to avoid downsides like the Blood Bond.) I mean barring a minority of absurdly powerful godlike vampires (3rd and 4th gen) vampires are typically outnumbered many tens of thousands to one and thats before you factor in technology.

              I could think of two other aspects to think of when you talk about Vampires and humans co-existing. The first is religious/supernatural in the sense 'would God allow it?' After all if one believed Vampire Mythology any time the Vampires tried to create coexistence (at least with them at the top) they inevitably failed. They only managed to succeed when they were existing more as parasites than as rulers. And even that was at its peak when it was the Dark Ages (compared to modern nights. As time got on Vampires seemed to wield less dominance and more secrecy to survive.) If such coexistence is doomed from the start for whatever reason, then it will likely fail regardless.

              Another issue would probably be age. I'd expect younger vampires (those more a product of say the last century or so) to be more open to the idea of co-existence than those that are hundreds (much less thousands) of years old.

              But barring that you can expect that humans and vampires could always find some sort of equilibrium as long as both sides saw some benefit to it and mechanisms to prevent one side or the other from fucking it up for personal benefit.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Mister_Dunpeal View Post
                I mean barring a minority of absurdly powerful godlike vampires (3rd and 4th gen) vampires are typically outnumbered many tens of thousands to one and thats before you factor in technology.
                It never fails to disappoint me, when people think that technology is something exclusive to humans. Vampires are completely sapient creatures, who began their lives as humans. It's not like becoming undead makes you incapable of working a smart phone, or uploading a computer virus into the SI's surveillance network...

                It's almost as if people think Shrecknet being dismantled is the same thing as Shrecknet being retconned out of the lore.
                Last edited by Nyrufa; 10-05-2019, 09:35 PM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post

                  It never fails to disappoint me, when people think that technology is something exclusive to humans. Vampires are completely sapient creatures, who began their lives as humans. It's not like becoming undead makes you incapable of working a smart phone, or uploading a computer virus into the SI's surveillance network...

                  It's almost as if people think Shrecknet being dismantled is the same thing as Shrecknet being retconned out of the lore.
                  That's true and all, but think about the sheer number of organizations with full access to this technology vs. the objectively tiny fragment that Kindred represent.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                    It never fails to disappoint me, when people think that technology is something exclusive to humans.
                    Mentioning technology and Kindred in a fashion that isn't "every Kindred on the planet should be stuck in the dark ages" seems to bring out the worst in a not-insignificant number of people. Namely LARPers who play a certain genre with a name starting with "M" and ending with "age."

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by The Dreamweaver View Post

                      That's true and all, but think about the sheer number of organizations with full access to this technology vs. the objectively tiny fragment that Kindred represent.

                      Numbers don't mean a thing when it comes to digital warfare, especially not when it comes to malicious software that can spread throughout entire networks just because of one mistake. Been watching videos of people scam bating call centers. One tech-savy individual manages to dismantle, or severely damage an entire facility of hackers with ease. Just because one of their people was stupid enough to fall for it!
                      Last edited by Nyrufa; 10-06-2019, 08:35 AM.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


                        Numbers don't mean a thing when it comes to digital warfare, especially not when it comes to malicious software that can spread throughout entire networks just because of one mistake. Been watching videos of people scam bating call centers. One tech-savy individual manages to dismantle, or severely damage an entire facility of hackers with ease. Just because one of their people was stupid enough to fall for it!

                        Stupidity is not a trait exclusive to humans.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by The Dreamweaver View Post


                          Stupidity is not a trait exclusive to humans.

                          Completely true. But most vampires unfortunate enough to exhibit it don't survive very long.

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                          • #28
                            Danse Macabre for Vampire: The Requiem had another idea for how vampires "coming out of the coffin" could go:

                            "They have towns. Whole towns in the middle of no-
                            where. And the purposes of these towns? To integrate
                            human with vampire. They walled the towns off. They
                            kidnapped whole populations and brought them there
                            in the hundreds (and in some cases, by a thousand
                            or more). And they told them the truth, kicking the
                            Masquerade square in the nuts. “Yes, we’re vampires,
                            yes, we’ve existed for millennia, and we want to be
                            friends.” The arc always goes the same way. It starts
                            off sketchy, because who wants to be abducted and
                            taken to a town built by monsters? But then it evens
                            out. A little mental massaging, a little utopian reward,
                            a friendly vampire neighbor or two. And then, just as
                            things are looking good, everything goes to shit. The
                            vampires feed too much, or the humans off a vampire,
                            and tensions rise, and restrictions clamp down, and
                            bigger walls go up, and next thing you know some
                            poor kid is Tasered in the town square and a coterie
                            of vampires can’t help themselves and frenzy on the
                            teen and—well. That’s that. But they keep on trying.
                            Somehow."

                            "You want to amp up the gonzo? Here goes:
                            • Those towns the Commonwealth keep? Yeah, one went south somewhere out of the desert and the tables were
                            turned—the humans revolted and offed their vampire “neighbors” and got loose. Now a group of humans are
                            out there, off-the-grid, and they know vampires are real. They’re building an army. An army of vampire hunters."


                            Blood and Bourbon, my New Orleans-based Vampire chronicle.

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                            • #29
                              In my opinion once Vampires were revealed like this one of the side effects is the spread of Sorcery/Enlightened Science. So humans use Technological Sorcery to achieve the studies of Vitae and Medicine, and the mystical side of things also start to swell as Theurgists and Occultists are legitimized. What do you think happens when the Government or a University confiscates a Tremere Chantry. Soon they start reverse engineers some principles of sorcery beyond the blood related aspects.

                              But even if you have a handful of utopian pacifist vampires, nothing guarantees new vampires will also be angels, or even currently nice vampires won't degenerate.

                              I feel we would eventually get a variant of the Path of Metamorphosis that gets rid of the taboo of sharing knowledge and it could lead to some mad scientisty civilizations.

                              Also are Wan Gui vampires a thing here? If that is the case China wouldn't look anything like it does now or like how the rest of the world will look like.


                              It is a time for great deeds!

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                                What do you think happens when the Government or a University confiscates a Tremere Chantry. Soon they start reverse engineers some principles of sorcery beyond the blood related aspects.

                                "What Chantry? We have no records of any such building existing in that area."

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