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Can vampires and humans live together in harmony?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Mister_Dunpeal View Post

    Alternately, if we figure the Invisible Hand of Capitalism comes into its ideal, vampires are hunted, captured, then mliked for their vitae in a way that provides those who can afford it their immortality (and probably kills off the vampire after they've been 'milked' to avoid downsides like the Blood Bond.) I mean barring a minority of absurdly powerful godlike vampires (3rd and 4th gen) vampires are typically outnumbered many tens of thousands to one and thats before you factor in technology.

    So are billionaires. Hasn't caused them to have any trouble sleeping at night.


    • #32
      Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post

      The biggest gamechangers, though, are Thaumaturgy and Necromancy.

      In Thaumaturgy, it's not so much Path of Blood. Utilitarian as it is, it mostly just buffs or nerfs vampires.

      No, I'm talking about Conjuring.

      I think this is going to cause all sorts of problems...for vampires.

      I think this plan concentrates on the end product too much, while ignoring the amount of logistics and organization needed to actually pull it off (like those "if every person plants a tree" eco-plans)

      Assuming vampires are fairly numerous, all of the food and water needs of humanity have just been met. Yay! No more famines.
      1º I'm going to be sceptical here because I'm not convinced that the amount of blood needed combined with the energy consumed by the human body to produce the blood and donate it , factoring the the verious needs of the vampires will really be able to produce THAT much without making too many vampires as a working force, that would need more blood, making the whole business unsustainable in the long run.

      I would need to see figures to believe that the mass described it's going to be trully as relevant as you make it to be. That the amount of blood needed to sustain it and the vampires isn't going to be too much for the whole of humanity. Because humanity produces AND consumes ludicrous amounts of goods. And I mean ludicrous, absurd amounts of goods (and the energy to power them and transport them). I'm not sure we have THAT much blood as to power the whole of industry, nor about the logistics that are to be used to get the most advantage of it.

      Not to say that it wouldn't be a major gamechanger on global economy, ignoring physics like this probably would be a gamechanger (especially when creating rare stuff, or those that are very hard to make). I can totally see this causing major distortions and crashing whole economies...but to replace the WHOLE of human production with conjurers as you indicate, that's a much longer shoot.

      And even if such endeavor was trully sustainable, that produces it's own problems.

      Assuming Vampires with Conjuring are fairly numerous generates a few problems: At the beginning, Vampires with Conjuring are mostly Elders, Tremere and Tremere Elders. None of these are known for their philantropic ways. So, we're assuming they mass teach this Discipline for the gold and the power. Then we're assuming they (not the vampires, but the Tremere) control and monopolize this resource.

      We're assuming they create enough Conjurers to make more products per second that the whole of human mechanized industry and food insdustry, all industry. That's many millons of kilos of materialized stuff per second. Even assuming this it's actually feasible (which, as I said, I'm very sceptical about) A LOT of vampires are going to be needed, and because their Elders ain't the "comunity" type, they're going to be treated like shit.

      Let the "Conjurers" toil for minimum wage while the "real" masters enjoy.

      Also, let's remember the Elders that run the circus and get all the revenue hate each other and like nothing better than to kill and humiliate each other. This will generate a competition that WILL devolve on sabotage. And that's before vampires w/o Conjuration (that is, most of them) throw monkeywrenches of their own. That's added to the human troublemakers

      Now, what happens when absurdly big masses of vampires get treated like shit, murdered, and their Elders are too bussy throwing at each other to properly control them?. Anarchy happens. Fire and brimstone.

      Seriously, every and each time vampires tried to organize in big numbers to do this kind of shenanigans, it ended on fire. Not even Troile, being an Antediluvian with powers greater than the Gods of his time, managed to pull this off w/o his "utopy" turning into rivers of blood and gore to be crushed by more sensible vampires in a short time. Blame the Baali, if you want, but Troile was the one who ended in wassail.

      Vampires are barely able to rule a city for a few decades w/o having internal conflicts breaking their whole power structure, they're not "rulling over humanity" anytime soon unless we assume human power as a sort of "balancing factor" that will prevent this meltdown. And that requires humans being at charge of things. I really don't think that vampires would be able to amass their kind on factories all day while the Elders laugh, and crush humans all that easily. With or without God watching.

      First, there is massive unemployment, and the usual social dysfunction and upheaval that creates.
      If vampires trully replace everything in a short amount of time, this isn't going to be the "usual" social dysfunction. It's going to be WW3 levels of social dysfunction.

      If they do it over the centuries, however, then it can work. Also, that way I can see the technological logistics of the world (aka, transport, distribution, energy) evolving to adapt to a more "Conjuration based" world as to make it more sustainable. But then that would also break the "shock factor", and would make humanity much more ready to exist alongside the "gifted humans".

      Note: This post has presumed a V20&pre environment. Also, everything I said about Necromancy and religion goes double for Path of Spirit Manipulation and religion.
      I largely agree with Necromancy (albeit that's a rare enough Discipline as to bring political problems of it's own since only the Giovanny can capitalize it. And one has to ponder the Wraith side of it, like, say, what happens with the "Delirium like" effects human suffer when they see a Wraith, and what amounts of force can bring the Dark Empires to avoid the problem)

      About the other. I'm not sure if trying to piss on Religion it's the right path. One really needs to stop underestimating how much power can religion bring to the table. More than half the world it's religious. On the other hand Path of Spirit Manipulation + Vampires = Demons pretty easily. Obviously demons are real now. That's going to give religion a lot of power, because they were telling you so all the time.

      And there's not that many Thaumaturges with the Path, there's not that many vampires and books to burn before it ends becoming extint (or rather, rare enough as to be hidden by Thaumaturges with survival instincts)

      The only way to take advantage on it would be to control the Path like no Path has ever been controled and ONLY use it to prove religion it's right (and that vampires aren't cursed by god, let's not listen those heresies of the Book of Nod please) invoking seemingly angelical entities to confirm sacred beliefs and whatnot


      Also, I think that this whole theory assumes people with powers and resources that humans don't have, because they're better, will be in cahrge of the world. Usually that's not the case. People in charge of the world rarely are the smartest or the more productive. World leaders don't tend to be supermen. They don't need to have unique and super rare talents. To have the right connections (and a lust for power) it's often much more important.

      Think about 3rd world countries vs 1rst world countries. Who are the ones that trully depend on the others to exist?. 3rd world produces most of the prime materials, most of the food, even a good chunk of the actual manufacture (because labor it's cheaper and all that) ... yet we aren't the ones that rule the world, are we?

      Vampires know this very well, and thus I think the Ventrue have their seat in power very well secured in a post-Masquerade utopia, w/o needing Conjuration or any other magic.
      Last edited by Aleph; 10-08-2019, 03:07 PM.


      • #33
        I'm with Aleph, except more so. The Path of Conjuration is not solving scarcity or replacing traditional supply chains. Period.

        First, the amount of blood needed to do that would dwarf what humanity has in its collective veins by several orders of magnitude.

        Second, vampires who know blood magic aren't going to teach students on an industrial scale, even if they could. Blood magicians do not just trade away their principle advantage willy nilly. Least of all because those students 1) undercut the original magician's bargaining power and 2) could turn around and use that blood magic against their teachers/masters. Especially since you are teaching them blood magic, not just Conjuration, because that's how blood magic works.

        Third, there's no reason for vampires to want to rearrange the industrial status quo, when that status quo functions perfectly well. At least it does for those in power, which is the only thing that matters; the vampires would just put themselves in the positions currently occupied by statesmen and CEOs. They have little to gain from achieving post-scarcity through Conjuration, when the apparatus of mortal industry functions. They certainly aren't going to push for post-scarcity out of the kindness of their hearts, to make the lives of the kine more comfortable. If they DO want to push to post-scarcity, it's more likely they'll try a scientific method, because they can just blood bond the scientists.

        No, blood bonding all scientists in the world isn't very practical. But it's a damn sight more practical than teaching millions of (newly embraced and hungry) vampires blood magic.

        Fourth, why are we talking about conjuring food? Because of world hunger? America wastes 40% of its food output. The problem of hunger is not a result of food production - we've been steadily boosting it for hundreds of years, and have other tricks to boost it further on the pipeline. Nor, incidentally, is it a matter of population, Malthus (you classist piece of ****).

        The problem is distribution. Both because of time and effort needed to get food from where it's grown to where it's needed, and because Capitalism as an economic system doesn't incentivize giving food to those who most need it (if they could afford it under Capitalism, they wouldn't be hungry). Much modern strides in countering hunger come from efforts to get food producers (farmers and grocery stores) to give excess food to food banks and charities, like some European countries are doing. But these are attempts to work around problems inherent to Capitalism.

        And I don't think that if vampires suddenly took over the world, they would bother to reorganize around a more equitable distribution of resources. No, not even when they have literal magic.