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Can vampires and humans live together in harmony?

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  • Can vampires and humans live together in harmony?

    I'm STing a game where the masquerade has been lifted all over the world for almost two decades. A war broke out in 2020 where humans hunted in the day and boarded up at night. Every able nation in the world contributed their resources to exterminate the threat. The war did not last long. With modern weapons and surveillance technologies, vampires are all but exterminated. Vampires are now feared and loathed, with estimates of their current population at less than a tenth of their pre-war population. Some humans still hunt vampires for their precious vitae, for their God, or to fulfill bounties. They have no rights as the unliving, and the world by and large has called for a continued genocide of all vampires. Harboring a vampire is seen as an act of sedition/terrorism and the penalty is death. There are vampire sympathisers, but when found, they are executed by authorities or stoned in the streets by neighbors - who are very rarely charged for these acts of vigilantism.

    I would like to emphasise that this is not a dystopia. At least not for the humans - the very opposite, they have benefited greatly from "vamp industries" where the unique properties of vitae have been studied, harvested and sold to rich billionaires who can afford a steady supply through underground markets. As the Times put it, "the very first human immortals currently live among us... in the top 1 per cent". Vampirologists have filled senior positions in prestigious universities where live subjects are poked and prodded so that eternal life can be achieved without the less savory effects of vitae. Scientific progress in the fields of medical biology, bio-technology and bio-chemistry have been the greatest benefactors of the discovery of vitae.

    The current year is 2051, and the coterie is a gang of high humanity vampires who have survived by living underground in sewers or in ocean "bubble communities" near geothermal sources of energy. They have been around since the war, and survived through the kindness of a handful of brave humans - many of whom have already passed or been executed - who also helped build underground/underwater sanctuaries. One young vampire in the coterie (a 20 year old neonate who was embraced as a child) asks if it's possible to change the minds of other humans. If they could convince them there are vampires who would rather starve than harm a human.

    TLDR: Do you think it's possible for vampires and humans to live together in relative peace? And if so, what might that look like?
    P.S. I know about Carthage, but I'm thinking of a modern day equivalent or parallel material. Not Rachel Caine.
    Last edited by lucasstriker; 09-30-2019, 03:12 AM.

  • CTPhipps
    Yes, as soon as humans accept their place as food.

    Mind you, I've done a book series on this so I'm being enormously hypocritical.

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  • MyWifeIsScary
    OP is too optimistic, Responses are too pessimistic.

    In today's climate, we go full PC "Oh, vampires kept secret because they feared persecution, look at the holocaust, look at... Stand up for vampire rights!"
    There will be passionate campaigns by beautiful, charismatic Toreador, Ventrue and Brujah, selling the vampire ideal.
    Then, say, you make a few rules in acknowledgment of vampires: people can willingly donate blood to vampires for cash benefits. Prisons have vibrant blood economies... people wear jewelry a certain way to mean 'I consent to my blood being sucked'

    But the masquerade still goes on; Vampires may move to having legitimate wealth, but they control people, they control the media, they mostly keep to themselves in the shadows, they continually police themselves for the new masqeurade; Not one of keeping vampire existence secret, but one of keeping the nasty side of vampires out of the public's eye.

    Even after you have an apocalyptic war, i still imagine a lot of stuff would be reverted towards a liberal society. Vampires can just control humans with wealth, they don't need to keep us like Orwellian cattle.

    RE: Conjuring
    You know it doesn't work for everything right? It follows the same rules for the path of alchemy; Anything that needs to change state to work doesn't work: Food, Fuel and anything that burns or explodes just turns to mush. You can make a gun, but you can't make ammo. You can make a motorcycle, but you can't make fuel, you can make jewelry, but you can't melt it down to make something new with it.

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  • Koronus
    I think it would be theoretically possible if the vampires can convince humans of a gerontocratie. So that it would be better to let the vampires do the decicion because they have most experience and the humans would mayby via democracy vote for which vampire would be now on the rule. If vampires go over the borders people can mayby do Ostrakismos and stack then during the day while letting the stack out after mayby a half century. But for that the to happen the populism and state crisis need to be even worse because right now the anakyklosis is way to much in favour of the democracy.

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  • Bluecho
    I'm with Aleph, except more so. The Path of Conjuration is not solving scarcity or replacing traditional supply chains. Period.

    First, the amount of blood needed to do that would dwarf what humanity has in its collective veins by several orders of magnitude.

    Second, vampires who know blood magic aren't going to teach students on an industrial scale, even if they could. Blood magicians do not just trade away their principle advantage willy nilly. Least of all because those students 1) undercut the original magician's bargaining power and 2) could turn around and use that blood magic against their teachers/masters. Especially since you are teaching them blood magic, not just Conjuration, because that's how blood magic works.

    Third, there's no reason for vampires to want to rearrange the industrial status quo, when that status quo functions perfectly well. At least it does for those in power, which is the only thing that matters; the vampires would just put themselves in the positions currently occupied by statesmen and CEOs. They have little to gain from achieving post-scarcity through Conjuration, when the apparatus of mortal industry functions. They certainly aren't going to push for post-scarcity out of the kindness of their hearts, to make the lives of the kine more comfortable. If they DO want to push to post-scarcity, it's more likely they'll try a scientific method, because they can just blood bond the scientists.

    No, blood bonding all scientists in the world isn't very practical. But it's a damn sight more practical than teaching millions of (newly embraced and hungry) vampires blood magic.

    Fourth, why are we talking about conjuring food? Because of world hunger? America wastes 40% of its food output. The problem of hunger is not a result of food production - we've been steadily boosting it for hundreds of years, and have other tricks to boost it further on the pipeline. Nor, incidentally, is it a matter of population, Malthus (you classist piece of ****).

    The problem is distribution. Both because of time and effort needed to get food from where it's grown to where it's needed, and because Capitalism as an economic system doesn't incentivize giving food to those who most need it (if they could afford it under Capitalism, they wouldn't be hungry). Much modern strides in countering hunger come from efforts to get food producers (farmers and grocery stores) to give excess food to food banks and charities, like some European countries are doing. But these are attempts to work around problems inherent to Capitalism.

    And I don't think that if vampires suddenly took over the world, they would bother to reorganize around a more equitable distribution of resources. No, not even when they have literal magic.

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  • Aleph
    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post

    The biggest gamechangers, though, are Thaumaturgy and Necromancy.

    In Thaumaturgy, it's not so much Path of Blood. Utilitarian as it is, it mostly just buffs or nerfs vampires.

    No, I'm talking about Conjuring.

    I think this is going to cause all sorts of problems...for vampires.

    I think this plan concentrates on the end product too much, while ignoring the amount of logistics and organization needed to actually pull it off (like those "if every person plants a tree" eco-plans)

    Assuming vampires are fairly numerous, all of the food and water needs of humanity have just been met. Yay! No more famines.
    1º I'm going to be sceptical here because I'm not convinced that the amount of blood needed combined with the energy consumed by the human body to produce the blood and donate it , factoring the the verious needs of the vampires will really be able to produce THAT much without making too many vampires as a working force, that would need more blood, making the whole business unsustainable in the long run.

    I would need to see figures to believe that the mass described it's going to be trully as relevant as you make it to be. That the amount of blood needed to sustain it and the vampires isn't going to be too much for the whole of humanity. Because humanity produces AND consumes ludicrous amounts of goods. And I mean ludicrous, absurd amounts of goods (and the energy to power them and transport them). I'm not sure we have THAT much blood as to power the whole of industry, nor about the logistics that are to be used to get the most advantage of it.

    Not to say that it wouldn't be a major gamechanger on global economy, ignoring physics like this probably would be a gamechanger (especially when creating rare stuff, or those that are very hard to make). I can totally see this causing major distortions and crashing whole economies...but to replace the WHOLE of human production with conjurers as you indicate, that's a much longer shoot.

    And even if such endeavor was trully sustainable, that produces it's own problems.

    Assuming Vampires with Conjuring are fairly numerous generates a few problems: At the beginning, Vampires with Conjuring are mostly Elders, Tremere and Tremere Elders. None of these are known for their philantropic ways. So, we're assuming they mass teach this Discipline for the gold and the power. Then we're assuming they (not the vampires, but the Tremere) control and monopolize this resource.

    We're assuming they create enough Conjurers to make more products per second that the whole of human mechanized industry and food insdustry, all industry. That's many millons of kilos of materialized stuff per second. Even assuming this it's actually feasible (which, as I said, I'm very sceptical about) A LOT of vampires are going to be needed, and because their Elders ain't the "comunity" type, they're going to be treated like shit.

    Let the "Conjurers" toil for minimum wage while the "real" masters enjoy.

    Also, let's remember the Elders that run the circus and get all the revenue hate each other and like nothing better than to kill and humiliate each other. This will generate a competition that WILL devolve on sabotage. And that's before vampires w/o Conjuration (that is, most of them) throw monkeywrenches of their own. That's added to the human troublemakers

    Now, what happens when absurdly big masses of vampires get treated like shit, murdered, and their Elders are too bussy throwing at each other to properly control them?. Anarchy happens. Fire and brimstone.

    Seriously, every and each time vampires tried to organize in big numbers to do this kind of shenanigans, it ended on fire. Not even Troile, being an Antediluvian with powers greater than the Gods of his time, managed to pull this off w/o his "utopy" turning into rivers of blood and gore to be crushed by more sensible vampires in a short time. Blame the Baali, if you want, but Troile was the one who ended in wassail.

    Vampires are barely able to rule a city for a few decades w/o having internal conflicts breaking their whole power structure, they're not "rulling over humanity" anytime soon unless we assume human power as a sort of "balancing factor" that will prevent this meltdown. And that requires humans being at charge of things. I really don't think that vampires would be able to amass their kind on factories all day while the Elders laugh, and crush humans all that easily. With or without God watching.

    First, there is massive unemployment, and the usual social dysfunction and upheaval that creates.
    If vampires trully replace everything in a short amount of time, this isn't going to be the "usual" social dysfunction. It's going to be WW3 levels of social dysfunction.

    If they do it over the centuries, however, then it can work. Also, that way I can see the technological logistics of the world (aka, transport, distribution, energy) evolving to adapt to a more "Conjuration based" world as to make it more sustainable. But then that would also break the "shock factor", and would make humanity much more ready to exist alongside the "gifted humans".

    Note: This post has presumed a V20&pre environment. Also, everything I said about Necromancy and religion goes double for Path of Spirit Manipulation and religion.
    I largely agree with Necromancy (albeit that's a rare enough Discipline as to bring political problems of it's own since only the Giovanny can capitalize it. And one has to ponder the Wraith side of it, like, say, what happens with the "Delirium like" effects human suffer when they see a Wraith, and what amounts of force can bring the Dark Empires to avoid the problem)

    About the other. I'm not sure if trying to piss on Religion it's the right path. One really needs to stop underestimating how much power can religion bring to the table. More than half the world it's religious. On the other hand Path of Spirit Manipulation + Vampires = Demons pretty easily. Obviously demons are real now. That's going to give religion a lot of power, because they were telling you so all the time.

    And there's not that many Thaumaturges with the Path, there's not that many vampires and books to burn before it ends becoming extint (or rather, rare enough as to be hidden by Thaumaturges with survival instincts)

    The only way to take advantage on it would be to control the Path like no Path has ever been controled and ONLY use it to prove religion it's right (and that vampires aren't cursed by god, let's not listen those heresies of the Book of Nod please) invoking seemingly angelical entities to confirm sacred beliefs and whatnot


    Also, I think that this whole theory assumes people with powers and resources that humans don't have, because they're better, will be in cahrge of the world. Usually that's not the case. People in charge of the world rarely are the smartest or the more productive. World leaders don't tend to be supermen. They don't need to have unique and super rare talents. To have the right connections (and a lust for power) it's often much more important.

    Think about 3rd world countries vs 1rst world countries. Who are the ones that trully depend on the others to exist?. 3rd world produces most of the prime materials, most of the food, even a good chunk of the actual manufacture (because labor it's cheaper and all that) ... yet we aren't the ones that rule the world, are we?

    Vampires know this very well, and thus I think the Ventrue have their seat in power very well secured in a post-Masquerade utopia, w/o needing Conjuration or any other magic.
    Last edited by Aleph; 10-08-2019, 03:07 PM.

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  • Lian
    Originally posted by Mister_Dunpeal View Post

    Alternately, if we figure the Invisible Hand of Capitalism comes into its ideal, vampires are hunted, captured, then mliked for their vitae in a way that provides those who can afford it their immortality (and probably kills off the vampire after they've been 'milked' to avoid downsides like the Blood Bond.) I mean barring a minority of absurdly powerful godlike vampires (3rd and 4th gen) vampires are typically outnumbered many tens of thousands to one and thats before you factor in technology.

    So are billionaires. Hasn't caused them to have any trouble sleeping at night.

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  • Nyrufa
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
    What do you think happens when the Government or a University confiscates a Tremere Chantry. Soon they start reverse engineers some principles of sorcery beyond the blood related aspects.

    "What Chantry? We have no records of any such building existing in that area."

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  • Eldagusto
    In my opinion once Vampires were revealed like this one of the side effects is the spread of Sorcery/Enlightened Science. So humans use Technological Sorcery to achieve the studies of Vitae and Medicine, and the mystical side of things also start to swell as Theurgists and Occultists are legitimized. What do you think happens when the Government or a University confiscates a Tremere Chantry. Soon they start reverse engineers some principles of sorcery beyond the blood related aspects.

    But even if you have a handful of utopian pacifist vampires, nothing guarantees new vampires will also be angels, or even currently nice vampires won't degenerate.

    I feel we would eventually get a variant of the Path of Metamorphosis that gets rid of the taboo of sharing knowledge and it could lead to some mad scientisty civilizations.

    Also are Wan Gui vampires a thing here? If that is the case China wouldn't look anything like it does now or like how the rest of the world will look like.

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  • False Epiphany
    Danse Macabre for Vampire: The Requiem had another idea for how vampires "coming out of the coffin" could go:

    "They have towns. Whole towns in the middle of no-
    where. And the purposes of these towns? To integrate
    human with vampire. They walled the towns off. They
    kidnapped whole populations and brought them there
    in the hundreds (and in some cases, by a thousand
    or more). And they told them the truth, kicking the
    Masquerade square in the nuts. “Yes, we’re vampires,
    yes, we’ve existed for millennia, and we want to be
    friends.” The arc always goes the same way. It starts
    off sketchy, because who wants to be abducted and
    taken to a town built by monsters? But then it evens
    out. A little mental massaging, a little utopian reward,
    a friendly vampire neighbor or two. And then, just as
    things are looking good, everything goes to shit. The
    vampires feed too much, or the humans off a vampire,
    and tensions rise, and restrictions clamp down, and
    bigger walls go up, and next thing you know some
    poor kid is Tasered in the town square and a coterie
    of vampires can’t help themselves and frenzy on the
    teen and—well. That’s that. But they keep on trying.

    "You want to amp up the gonzo? Here goes:
    • Those towns the Commonwealth keep? Yeah, one went south somewhere out of the desert and the tables were
    turned—the humans revolted and offed their vampire “neighbors” and got loose. Now a group of humans are
    out there, off-the-grid, and they know vampires are real. They’re building an army. An army of vampire hunters."

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  • Nyrufa
    Originally posted by The Dreamweaver View Post

    Stupidity is not a trait exclusive to humans.

    Completely true. But most vampires unfortunate enough to exhibit it don't survive very long.

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  • The Dreamweaver
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post

    Numbers don't mean a thing when it comes to digital warfare, especially not when it comes to malicious software that can spread throughout entire networks just because of one mistake. Been watching videos of people scam bating call centers. One tech-savy individual manages to dismantle, or severely damage an entire facility of hackers with ease. Just because one of their people was stupid enough to fall for it!

    Stupidity is not a trait exclusive to humans.

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  • Nyrufa
    Originally posted by The Dreamweaver View Post

    That's true and all, but think about the sheer number of organizations with full access to this technology vs. the objectively tiny fragment that Kindred represent.

    Numbers don't mean a thing when it comes to digital warfare, especially not when it comes to malicious software that can spread throughout entire networks just because of one mistake. Been watching videos of people scam bating call centers. One tech-savy individual manages to dismantle, or severely damage an entire facility of hackers with ease. Just because one of their people was stupid enough to fall for it!
    Last edited by Nyrufa; 10-06-2019, 08:35 AM.

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  • GilbyTheFat
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
    It never fails to disappoint me, when people think that technology is something exclusive to humans.
    Mentioning technology and Kindred in a fashion that isn't "every Kindred on the planet should be stuck in the dark ages" seems to bring out the worst in a not-insignificant number of people. Namely LARPers who play a certain genre with a name starting with "M" and ending with "age."

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  • The Dreamweaver
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post

    It never fails to disappoint me, when people think that technology is something exclusive to humans. Vampires are completely sapient creatures, who began their lives as humans. It's not like becoming undead makes you incapable of working a smart phone, or uploading a computer virus into the SI's surveillance network...

    It's almost as if people think Shrecknet being dismantled is the same thing as Shrecknet being retconned out of the lore.
    That's true and all, but think about the sheer number of organizations with full access to this technology vs. the objectively tiny fragment that Kindred represent.

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