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  • Tremere Hierarchy

    So, admittedly I pretty much got all of Bloodlines and a few wiki crawls to thank for my VtM knowledge, but from what I see, Tremere Regent and Primogen seem to be filled by the same Warlock. I don't delude myself into thinking this is always the case, but how common is it? Would a different Primogen and Regent butt heads over how to assist their clan? Between the two, which would be considered the "higher" station among Tremere?

  • #2
    The higher status among Tremere will always be the highest position within clan.

    Apprentice - Regent - High Regent - Lord - Pontifex - Inner Council (only 7) - Tremere himself

    - Saga

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    • #3
      Combining the position would likely be the standard choice. There may be a few reasons why it doesn't happen though: On the one hand, when the Clan is particularly powerful in a city, the Regent may be too busy with clan internals to handle diplomacy with others - in which case they might oficially 'abdicate' as Primogen and hand over the role to someone else, who is still subservient to the Regent. The alternative would be a Regent who's managed to annoy their superior in the Pyramid enough that they want to limit the Regent's power. The easiest way to do that is to slice away the Primogen title and put the two on relatively even footing, perhaps even officially removing the Primogen from the Regent's control. The third variant would be a Lord (next higher title in the Pyramid) retaining the Primogen title, but passing off management of their home Chantry to a Regent. The fourth, possible almost only in V5 when the Pyramid is broken, would be internal strife, with part of the local Tremere supporting their Regent and others supporting the Primogen. And the fifth is pretty much the inverse of the first: With a particularly weak Tremere presence, it's possible that outsiders (like the other Primogen or the Prince) dictate who is to speak for the clan, particularly if the Regent has some enemies.

      Among Tremere, the internal hierarchy would always count more in theory. It's possible that the Regent is not the most powerful Tremere, but in that case, it seems likely that the Pyramid would sooner or later pressure the underling to officially challenge for Regent status.

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      • #4
        I agree with all of what Cifer says. I'll add one more reason for such a split. There may be a situation where there are two Tremere who are (roughly) peers within the pyramid. If one is more skilled at internal administration, and the other is more skilled at diplomacy among the other clans, Vienna may put each in the office that most suits them.

        In most cities, both offices will be the same person just because of sheer demographics. With one vampire per 50K humans or so, and seven clans divvying up those "slots", it takes a good sized city to support a multi-member chantry. It would be uncommon to have a dozen Tremere residing in a single city, until you pass the three to five million humans mark.

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        • #5
          Like most have said, it's the most common setup because usually there aren't enough Elder Tremere to warrant two different people on those positions. The Regent is usually the Tremere who is oldest and have the most status, the primogen is usually the vampire of a clan who is oldest and have the most status.

          Note: the idea of "One Primogen for each clan in the city" is a rather new idea, and definitely not the default. There could be a Primogen council consisting of 3 Ventrue, a Brujah and a Malkavian for example. The title of Primogen is awarded to a vampire with enough political power to claim it. That's it.





          English is not my native language, so i apologize for errors in grammar or spelling.

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          • #6
            I'd be inclined to say that in most places, the Regent would be the Tremere Primogen. The exception might be places where the political climate is too damn hot to risk having the Regent as Primogen, so the Regent might rely on the other Clans knowing very little - if anything at all - about Tremere hierarchy (and thus who their leader is) to present someone who is a lower-circle Apprentice as the "leader" - that way if the Primogen then gets screwed around or wiped, they haven't lost a Chantry head and the real leader can start directing investigations and reprisals against the local enemies of the Clan.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Gold Monk View Post
              So, admittedly I pretty much got all of Bloodlines and a few wiki crawls to thank for my VtM knowledge, but from what I see, Tremere Regent and Primogen seem to be filled by the same Warlock. I don't delude myself into thinking this is always the case, but how common is it? Would a different Primogen and Regent butt heads over how to assist their clan? Between the two, which would be considered the "higher" station among Tremere?
              The Regent would in all likelihood be the superior to a Primogen if they were not the same person. I can see a Primogen being a different Tremere if the Chantry wants one as a liaison between the Chantry and the local Kindred. Though if the Primogen was more powerful it could be because their are multiple Chantries under the Primogen Council, or the Primogen is just a mighty Tremere whose career is off the books as far as Tremere are concerned.


              It is a time for great deeds!

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Gold Monk View Post
                So, admittedly I pretty much got all of Bloodlines and a few wiki crawls to thank for my VtM knowledge, but from what I see, Tremere Regent and Primogen seem to be filled by the same Warlock. I don't delude myself into thinking this is always the case, but how common is it? Would a different Primogen and Regent butt heads over how to assist their clan? Between the two, which would be considered the "higher" station among Tremere?

                Yes, I believe it's fair to say that the highest ranking Tremere within the local chantry would also fill the position of clan Primogen, just for convenience sake. Tremere take their pyramid structure extremely seriously. In previous editions of the game, they conducted a ritual to pretty much obliterate all Tremere antitribu, so that the only Tremere were those within the Camarilla who remained loyal to its pyramid structure. This bit of lore would eventually be retconned in later editions of the game, though, so there were some antitribu who managed to survive the purge.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                  In most cities, both offices will be the same person just because of sheer demographics. With one vampire per 50K humans or so, and seven clans divvying up those "slots", it takes a good sized city to support a multi-member chantry. It would be uncommon to have a dozen Tremere residing in a single city, until you pass the three to five million humans mark.
                  A side note to this, the easiest solution being not to have a chantry in every city. Tremere siege mentality and risk aversion being what they are, chantries represent major investments that can be snatched away in a single night, with perhaps its entire occupancy and assets lost, for any number of circumstances the most emergent being Sabbat raids. Depending who's leading the raid and their motives, Tremere chantries are high-priority targets along with and often exceeding Elysium and elders' havens. Given the immense time, money, and ritual resources that go into creating a chantry, and that Tremere just can't pick up and leave at the drop of a hat, establishing a chantry in a vulnerable region just isn't something that will be banked on when the loss of entire chantries and their occupants are borderline catastrophic losses.

                  The workaround in my chronicles, has always been Tremere never build chantries in locations they can be expected to be, and unless inside major cities or those with ironclad security, establish something more akin to administrative districts than a "one city, one chantry" rule. A city might have a fake chantry, or a safe house with some of a chantry's accommodations that could act as one in a pinch, but permanent residency is out of the question. Coverage gaps are easily compensated for, simply on the sheer number of administrative, bureaucratic, transportation, and communications options available to Tremere via their discipline spread.

                  In such a case, there's no need for a Primogen for nightly affairs, but still need for an adviser whose internal responsibility would be to represent the clan's interests within that city and respond to crises. That Tremere may or may not hold the title, but for all intents and purposes they'd be one; given responsibility over internal matters always falls to the Regent, the only responsibility that would fall to the "Primogen" is representing the clan in external matters. In that, they're more akin to an ambassador than a proper Primogen, and that makes the task ideal for delegation to a proven and specialized Apprentice.

                  Remember, while the Tremere talk a big game about Camarilla membership and being one of its pillars, internally it's at best a matter of convenience and necessity. Sect membership isn't integral to clan identity in the way it is for the Ventrue or Toreador, and the relationship is more parallel to the Lasombra or how Ventrue antitribu perceive the main clan.

                  This has the secondary consequence the target's on their head and not the actual Regent's, nobody outside the Pyramid knows who's actually in charge, and for all outsiders know that pipsqueak neonate in the corner is actually King Badass ready to barbecue a motherfucker for doing a something with a whatsit that might run contrary to a clan's secondary interest.
                  Last edited by Theodrim; 10-03-2019, 01:22 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Cadmiumcadamium View Post
                    Note: the idea of "One Primogen for each clan in the city" is a rather new idea, and definitely not the default. There could be a Primogen council consisting of 3 Ventrue, a Brujah and a Malkavian for example. The title of Primogen is awarded to a vampire with enough political power to claim it. That's it.
                    This bears repeating. In Chicago by Night (1e), the Brujah had two primogen, and the Malkavians and Ventrue had none. Power, not clan, was the only prerequisite to sit on the primogen.

                    Cities can also have different setups. DC by Night had the primogen as a fairly impotent body that did little more than rubber stamp Marcus Vitel's decisions. In that setup, you're more likely to see primogen who obtain their seats through appointment by prince or clan. You're also more likely to see equal representation for every clan.

                    Originally posted by Gold Monk
                    Would a different Primogen and Regent butt heads over how to assist their clan? Between the two, which would be considered the "higher" station among Tremere?
                    That really depends on...

                    * How powerful the primogen is as an institution
                    * How powerful the Tremere primogen is
                    * How powerful the Tremere regent is
                    * Which Tremere outranks which within the clan hierarchy


                    You can have powerful "we tell the prince what to do" primogen and puppet "the prince tells us what to do" primogen. A powerful regent is less likely to bother serving on a weak primogen (there's better things to do with one's time) and more likely to serve on a powerful primogen. A weak regent likely doesn't serve on a powerful primogen and may or may not serve on a weak primogen.

                    While the primogen's political relevance can vary quite a bit by city, a regent's power can vary a lot too. In some cities, a higher-ranking pontifex, high regent, or even councilor may occupy the same chantry as a regent, who often gets sidelined by their boss. Power is less fluid in the Tremere hierarchy, so a higher-ranking Tremere is likely but not guaranteed to be more powerful than their subordinates. In cities with weak primogen and a Tremere who outranks the local regent, you are fairly likely to see the regent serving on the primogen.


                    Just to consider some sample cities...

                    In DC by Night, Peter Dorfman is the pontifex of American politics and a pretty big deal. The primogen is a rubber stamp body, so he doesn't waste time serving on it. The actual primogen is also the regent of the local chantry, Helena Taylor, and quite a bit younger than he is (though she still aspires to replace her boss).

                    In Chicago, Nicolai is both regent and primogen for his clan. He's quite a lot more potent than the other Tremere in town, all of whom are his descendants (though V5 casts an interesting alternate light on one of them). The Inner Council knows he's been compromised by a local methuselah and by 2e has sent a Gargoyle to keep a closer eye on him, who by Beckett's Jyhad Diary he's gotten pretty scared of.

                    The way I'd run Chicago, Nicolai is high regent of the Great Lakes region (White Wolf never filled in that many high regents next to the regents/pontifices) and DuSable is regent of the Chicago chantry. Nicolai is still primogen.

                    In Frankfurt, Patricia von Bernstein is the local regent and one of her clan's most influential political players in Europe. She used to be a high regent, but was demoted for a long-ago failure she still hasn't overcome in her superiors' eyes. She served on Frankfurt's primogen until the prince disbanded it.

                    In New York by Night, the high regent oversees five other regents, several of whom are of roughly comparable power to her. One of the regents would like to serve on the primogen (or as prince, or seneschal, he hasn't made up his mind), which is currently a disorganized mess. One of the other regents wants to off the high regent and take over her job.

                    In San Francisco, Luna Demain is both regent and primogen for her clan. The only other detailed Tremere in the city is a lot younger and higher-generation than she is. Luna also hates her job and wishes she was back in Europe, but got transferred against her will because she wasn't very politically adept.

                    In Bloodline's Los Angeles, Max Strauss is both regent and primogen for his clan. He's the eldest Tremere we see around.

                    In Cairo, the Tremere don't serve on the primogen, and the regent was recently assassinated by Setites. There's two Tremere of comparable age and power left, one of whom is serving as the acting regent. The Setites have compromised the other one and want to see her take over.

                    In Paris by Night (fan supplement), the Tremere primogen is an ancilla who the city's other primogen don't think very highly of. His actual boss is one of the first Tremere ever Embraced, but said Tremere hides his presence from the larger city and rarely leaves the chantry. I don't remember what his rank was, but I'd make him either a high regent or pontifex of France, and have the primogen as the regent. The Paris primogen isn't a weak body, but he still doesn't want to serve on it.
                    In my chronicle's city, the Tremere primogen is high regent of the larger region. She's often away from the city, which is less economically prosperous than others within her realm. When she's in town, she's mainly interested in prosecuting a feud against another elder. The regent manages night-to-night stuff in the chantry without too much oversight, and most Tremere in the city deal with him.

                    In Milwaukee (1e), you have a particularly novel setup. Carna is the regent and the primogen, except it's not really worth a damn. There's two other Tremere in the city, one of whom is of comparable age and power to her, and she's been ordered not to get in the way of. There's also another Tremere, much younger than them both, who she's been told to take orders from. Essentially, she's a figurehead regent who lacks authority over her clanmates, and represents them to the other clans. That frustration is likely part of the reason she goes rogue in Beckett's Jyhard Diary.

                    We can see that while political dynamics vary quite a bit by city, there is a trend for a single, top dog Tremere to either serve on the primogen or delegate the job to a junior clanmate if they don't think doing it themselves is worthwhile.


                    Blood and Bourbon, my New Orleans-based Vampire chronicle.

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