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  • #46
    Originally posted by NuclearSnake View Post
    So, you end up with 3000 year old methuselah's who can be beaten by neonates with big guns.
    Admittedly, that one remains unlikely. As long as Helena gets a turn at all, that turn is likely spent activating Majesty, whereupon everyone trying to harm her or even just resist being sucked dry by her has to roll Composure+Resolve against her dice pool of 13 dice (17 if she really wants to).

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Haquim View Post

      Oh? And how's having "a complex combination of Disciplines" different from having one or more high level discipline powers? The important thing is Elders can do it and younger vampires cannot and yes, POTENTIALLY an high generation vampire could, if given enough time, gain them as well (but not be as effective). I guess you could say they nerfed generation, but I'm not sure that's a bad thing, generation has an important place in the setting and can generate interesting plot developments but mechanically it's not the greatest of backgrounds to have.

      As for Helena vs Ballard she can crush him in V5 as well, the fact thatb he can ALMOST match her dominate doesn't mean she hasn't got an edge on him in other disciplines and traits.
      You said it yourself, they completely nerfed both generation and age. Being able to use Celerity + Potence to come up with cool effects is not a substitute for an Elder having access to Strength 6 and above. Mechanic wise, it might work better, but Elders are the bedrock of vampire fiction and VTM has completely defanged theirs.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post

        You said it yourself, they completely nerfed both generation and age. Being able to use Celerity + Potence to come up with cool effects is not a substitute for an Elder having access to Strength 6 and above. Mechanic wise, it might work better, but Elders are the bedrock of vampire fiction and VTM has completely defanged theirs.
        I said you can say they nerfed generation because given time even a 13th generation vampire can access powers that would be lvl9 in previous editions. That hypothetical 13th gen vampire would still need a lot of time and experience to get that power. So they might have nerfed generation (and I don't think that's bad, see previous post) but they didn't nerf age.

        Elders are still a lot more powerful than neonates and they don't need 6+ disciplines (which they can replicate) to be.
        Last edited by Haquim; 10-18-2019, 07:35 PM.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
          You said it yourself, they completely nerfed both generation and age. Being able to use Celerity + Potence to come up with cool effects is not a substitute for an Elder having access to Strength 6 and above. Mechanic wise, it might work better, but Elders are the bedrock of vampire fiction and VTM has completely defanged theirs.
          …which vampire fiction? Dracula, Carmilla, Orlok, etc are all taken down by well-equipped and well-prepared humans. "You can never win, ever, because your opponents are invulnerable, the best you can do is keep your head down and not get killed" makes me think Cthulhu more than Gothic vampire.

          It's absolutely a mainstay of certain VtM editions, but I wouldn't extrapolate from that to vampire fiction in general.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Haquim View Post
            edit: Heavy Arms Mithras could represent that power with something like Dominate 5/Blood Magic 5 (he used to have Quietus which is now Blood Magic) and yes it could be unique to him because he alone developed this unique power and never revealed its existence to anyone else. NPCs are not PCs, they serve the role the Storyteller has assigned to them inside the chronicle and the ST can (and should) give them whatever ability/power helps them play their part.
            The problem I was point out was not "if" he could. The problems are:

            1) The idea that it would be unique outside of happenstance doesn't work.

            2) These are still characters. Treating them as stat blocks without personality, or coherence, is not useful to the game. "Mithras spend 500 years without arms, presuming that in the end he could grow the most powerful arms of all time, and nobody decided to just kill him while he didn't have arms to help defend himself in the meantime," doesn't really make a bunch of sense, and worse if all the ancients are apparently regularly doing something similar.

            3) Do not just say, "the ST can break the rules for NPCs" because then you're just proving the point that the rules are insufficient. If the game wants different rules for PCs and NPCs (which is a legit design method), fine, make the game that way from the ground up. As it stands, NPCs use the same rules as the PCs in V5.

            And if you are looking at previous editions as some sort of "guideline" about how to make sense of vampiric stats ypou'll find out that, most of the time, they don't make sense, because they were written by different people, with different tastes, different ideas and little to no coordination between themselves.
            I don't really need to be reminded how badly the old books handled stating up NPCs in general, but that's not a point I've been making so it doesn't really matter.

            The issue is what these characters are supposed to be able to do in the narrative of the game, and the rules not supporting it; which includes powers they had in old editions, because V5 is meant to exist in continuity with the previous editions.

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            • #51
              So this is the problem that I have to boiling this all down to arbitrary Stat blocks and theory listing. This is the Storyteller system not the Mathteller system.

              In what hypothetical world did a group of neonates get permission from the prince to destroy and decide that it was a good idea that they could take out Portia? Or do you think there would be no repercussions for your actions of attacking her? The game has a world that is ruled by story not mathematics. Traditions are not mechanics and bloodhunts are what awaits a bloodthirsty coterie that goes around killing everyone they oppose.

              So many more questions:

              Did you cover your tracks and make sure the Sheriff and the hounds aren't going to find you and murder you during the day?
              As a group of murder hobos how do you keep from getting killed by the SI?
              Did you convince her allies that you aren't worth killing?
              How did you all beat her majesty?
              You ambushed her, good for you. How did you get passed her using Split Second to circumvent your ambush after you trigger it?
              What rituals did your ST give her?
              In my world she has Blood of Potency, I'm sure she uses it often, because why wouldn't you when you can re-roll the rouse checks, did you take in the extra BP she had during your combat?
              Did you take into account that this character has Clairvoyance, Premonition, or Possession?
              You do understand that she has Rationalize and Terminal Decree? Did you eat your shotgun and think it was your own idea while your friends sat dumbfounded staring at the beautiful lady?
              When she dominated you to blow your coterie-mates away, how did you keep from doing so?
              That was a really good idea you just had, She is soooo pretty.
              Does your games not have SPCs with Allies or friends? Helena lives at the chantry with DuSable you know and that is not her only friend.

              All in all this sounds like a really bad one shot game to me rather than a campaign.

              The only thing I find ridiculous about figuring out if you can take Helena or not is that you are wasting time and energy in needless debates about things that don't matter instead of trying to enjoy the game, doesn't matter what edition. Just enjoy your game. It doesn't matter if Helena's stats are different in a system you probably aren't playing. If you are thinking about playing a new system go and play that system and see if you like it over your previous system or not. If you are mathtelling the statlines then V20 is probably the system for you, and there is nothing wrong with that. That is why the digital age is great, we have several several systems so everyone can play the one they like. And that should be fought for. Let's keep them all so we all can play the game we want to play. Let's not try to tear apart other peoples games and instead enjoy that we have so many choices.
              Last edited by Redwulfe; 10-18-2019, 10:13 PM.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Draconis View Post

                …which vampire fiction? Dracula, Carmilla, Orlok, etc are all taken down by well-equipped and well-prepared humans. "You can never win, ever, because your opponents are invulnerable, the best you can do is keep your head down and not get killed" makes me think Cthulhu more than Gothic vampire.

                It's absolutely a mainstay of certain VtM editions, but I wouldn't extrapolate from that to vampire fiction in general.
                That was not what I said. No one is suggesting that Methuselahs should be invincible, just that they have been ridiculously depowered.
                Most vampire fiction will, at some point, introduce older and older vampires which tend to be much, much stronger than their younger counterparts. V5 has gone in the opposite direction.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Redwulfe View Post
                  This is the Storyteller system not the Mathteller system.
                  Nope. Stop. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

                  We don't need another stupid version of "this is ROLE-playing, not ROLL-playing," in general, and certainly not in this thread. No matter how you try to play this off, all this does is insult people that disagree with you instead of actually engaging with what people are raising at points. No amount of "there's nothing wrong with that" statements stop this from being counterproductive at best.

                  The only thing I find ridiculous about figuring out if you can take Helena or not...
                  Please don't twist the conversation at hand. Undead Rabbit, for example, was comparing how the "mid-tier" major NPCs of Chicago compare to Helena. That is, if you're trying to go after her, what you'd need to do to get enough NPC help to actually pull it off, to demonstrate how big a hit she took in power between editions. That she went from a threat that would take rallying a huge portion of the city against her (and thus be a great story about that effort!), to someone that two or three of the major NPCs could level the playing field.

                  This is all about story. The problem being that V5 isn't just some different system and different story, it's a continuation of an existing story... hence the "5."

                  Let's keep them all so we all can play the game we want to play. Let's not try to tear apart other peoples games and instead enjoy that we have so many choices.
                  1) Nobody's edition warring here, and trying to make this about that doesn't help anything. People aren't saying V5 sucks because the core book doesn't have lots of rules for high powered elders... that was almost always supplemental material in previous editions (20th being the exception because of it's omnibus nature), people are pushing back against the claim the V5 core does what previous cores + supplements do to a satisfactory level. Most of us were expecting V5 to do what V1-V3 did: have a book that does into more detail for higher level characters as a supplement.

                  2) People have the right to complain about how V5 does stuff, and want to see V5 do better, just like we've done for all the previous editions.

                  3) Don't complain about tearing other people's game's apart when you're talking down about other people's playstyles, talking about people that don't play the game "enough" to have a "valid" opinion, or insisting on stuff people need to address to your gaming style's satisfaction.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                    Nope. Stop. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

                    We don't need another stupid version of "this is ROLE-playing, not ROLL-playing," in general, and certainly not in this thread. No matter how you try to play this off, all this does is insult people that disagree with you instead of actually engaging with what people are raising at points. No amount of "there's nothing wrong with that" statements stop this from being counterproductive at best.


                    Seriously? Well then I guess we do sense you are missing my point.

                    Is being a demigod only based on a statline in the game? No, it is not because we don't live in a blank box and the game isn't played in one either. ( this is my storyteller mathteller coment)

                    Story is what matters and it is the only thing that matters, when it comes to a storyteller game or any role playing game for that mater. Does it feel like she is a demigod when my character goes up against he? With her given statblock and the current rules, I just ate my shotgun while my party drooled in a corner so I will say yes.

                    Would I have to rally a huge portion of the city against her yes because once again we don't live in a blank box and the game isn't played in one either. You would have to rally the cause because many of the characters in the city are probably conditioned by her and they think it is their idea to not think of her as anything else but the cute little neonate Portia. Because once again it is about the story you want to tell so if I want a story of the party rallying the team and convencing huge portions of the city, I can make it into a year long campaign if I want to. It is completely up to me as I am the ST and this is a game driven by the narrative not one driven by math. So once again the math doesn't matter only the story does.

                    It doesn't matter if she has different stats or not, it should be expected that she will, because this is a new edition and works on completely different system than previous versions. so pointing out how different it is from previous editions and then pointing to its because V5 nerfered it is not helpful. If you want to help people see the power of Helena in the game then you point out that this is a narative game about interesting characters and you show them how they can bend parties over backwards within that game. If they don't think they can tell the same stories you show them ways to do so. If they don't like the rules then you help them to rules that they like so they can tell the sotries that they enjoy. You don't keep drooning on about how much has changed. that is what is not helpful, showing you how to tell the same stories in the new system or a previous one is. Because storyand enjoyment of the story is all that matters.

                    And no, this game is not a continuation of the story because the story ended with Gehenna. Revised told the end of the world. That was its story and no matter how much we didn't want that to happen, it did. Now we are telling new stories in the same world but what if the world didn't end. Well what if the Ravnos clan weren't based on a racial steriotype and what if the elders were beckoned away to the east and what if and what if.... that is the nature of story telling and that is what each edition has done, retold the smae story but slightly different. Revised is based on previous editions as each one was since first and each one changed things because they are all new editions.

                    The retconning started with 2nd edition and it wont stop there because the Ravnos are going to change, the Giovanni are going to change, disciplines have changed, you now have to actual worry about the beast the game has went on about for 4 editions so that has changed, We can now attack each others willpower thats a change, lots of things are going to change, the avatar storm is going to change, the tribes are going to change, and it will continue to change and that will go on and on.

                    But that is not a bad thing because nothing is gone. We have PDFs of every book ever created for this game and the ability and permission to play however we want to play. Buy what ever edition we want and play whatever we want however we want. you wantthe Tal'meh'ra to chase down aliens in the Tzimisce clan go for it. have fun. Story is all that matters.

                    I have never in my life, sence I first picked up the 1st edition book, played in a game that didn't have any houserules to the system. Every edition had things we didn't like but we realized that the story came first and if we didn't like a rule we changed it. so if you want Helena to be even more powerful than the demigod that she is, then change her. But if you ask if she's a god I will say yes, because I know the system well enough to know it is true. if you don't then fine lets make her more powerful for your game but complaining about it for a couple of days won't change her statline and not playing the game will not change your view of her power level.


                    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

                    Please don't twist the conversation at hand.


                    I am not twisting anything. The subtext of many posts is that V5 is bad because they ridicutlously depower or nerfed Helena, got rid of elders, made me role hunger dice, and the list goes on and on, and this follows the throuline of many of the debates on this forum, not just this one. It is well known amungst the people who enjoy V5 that you shouldn't get too involved in a discussion on this forum or in the World of Darkness discord because of the rampant dislike of V5 that prevailes here. That's why I don' t hang out here much anymore. My kind isn't welcome in these parts. keep your head down don't let people know your a fan if you know what's good for you and yes that is an oversimplification but it is not wrong.

                    Well that's not good for me anymore. Everyone desrves to play the edition they like and it is no longer acceptible to listen ot the "V5 did this" style comments. Everyone should be allowed to play the edition they like in the fashion they like.

                    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                    ​​
                    1) Nobody's edition warring here, and trying to make this about that doesn't help anything. People aren't saying V5 sucks because the core book doesn't have lots of rules for high powered elders... that was almost always supplemental material in previous editions (20th being the exception because of it's omnibus nature), people are pushing back against the claim the V5 core does what previous cores + supplements do to a satisfactory level. Most of us were expecting V5 to do what V1-V3 did: have a book that does into more detail for higher level characters as a supplement.
                    ​​

                    You may not be trying to edition waring but it does happen here. Its reminds me of the people who think there not being racist while saying some racist stuff. for example:

                    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                    ​​​
                    people are pushing back against the claim the V5 core does what previous cores + supplements do to a satisfactory level​
                    ​​​

                    This is saying V5 is not satisfactory. That's not true because I am on a discord that has a ton of people that think it is and Vampire hit the best sellers of icv2 two quarters in a row. but V5 is not good keeps getting repeated because this forum is an echo chamber for this sort of rederic. it may not be for you, that is an opinoin and it is yours and that is fine. but saying it is in general to people not satisfying as if that is a statment of a fact, is not an opinion and it is false. I see this a lot "V5 is not good.", "it is written porely", "it is a bad Edition". These are not statements of opinion because they are being said as if they are difinative truths or facts. And that is not acceptable to me. You can have an opinion but try to state it as such. "i think", "I don't like" and if you are just stating it to state it then maybe it is best to be kept to yourself as it is not adding anything and not helpful.

                    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                    ​​​​
                    2) People have the right to complain about how V5 does stuff, and want to see V5 do better, just like we've done for all the previous editions.
                    ​​​​

                    And I don't have the right to complain about that?

                    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                    ​​​​​
                    3) Don't complain about tearing other people's game's apart when you're talking down about other people's playstyles, talking about people that don't play the game "enough" to have a "valid" opinion, or insisting on stuff people need to address to your gaming style's satisfaction.
                    now that is twisting things. I don't care what your playstyle is if you want to play as massivly overpowered character go for it, so long as you have fun, please feel free. want to hand out 5 xp a game go for it want to create level 6+ powers I will help you. I can point you to a lot of house rules that many of people are working on and I would love ot help you out and I am currently writting houserules for people who want more powerful elders in the game so they can play the way they want to play. I am reading Elysium and thousand years of night ot come up with some ideas. I have this whole thing about shifting your powers around by drinking the blood of kindred and how that might be were the methusalahs curse comes from, but the point is it is to help othrs out find joy in these games and if you don't like them without level 6+ powers then lets create some together. I even went on these very forums and tried ot help people write up houserules to remove the hunger dice form the game to suite them better, So I can only assume you missunderstood me again.

                    I do beleive if you haven't played the game enough you can't make a meaningful argument. you literally do not have enough information. I have never read anything about Einstein so if I went around spouting off facts about Einstein I would not know "enough" about Einstein to have a "valid" opinon. This being a game does not change the fact that you shouldn't talk about things you don't know. or you should go out and find more information before spouting off about it like you are an expert on the matter. That's not tearing apart someones playstyle.In fact if you havent read the rules and still tried to play the game each week by making them up as you went along I would think you almost have it dead to rights, so long as it fun for you go to it, but you shouldn't comment on how the game sucks because you don't understand the game.

                    Heck, I was in a discussion recently about M20, because I am frustrated with that edition and it may not be for me. but people are telling me good things and I am in a game and I am going ot give it a year to see whats' what, because I really don't have enough information about it to form a valid opinion on whether I don't like it or not. I really hope I don't ever use the words "it sucks." I may not like it, it may not be my cup of tea, but I don't want to truly bash it and if I do you had better be the first one to say, "Hey, thats not the kinda person you said you wanted to be." Obviously not with those words.
                    Last edited by Redwulfe; 10-19-2019, 04:27 AM.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Redwulfe View Post
                      ​Seriously? Well then I guess we do sense you are missing my point.
                      My protest against the phrase "mathtelling," is a bit of a tangent to your point. The phrase itself is distracting from your point. It taints everything else you're saying because it's just that bad.

                      Is being a demigod only based on a statline in the game? No,...
                      Congrats! Nobody is arguing this is the case.

                      The problem is that you can't say that a character is a demigod, and then give them a stat block that doesn't put them on that level. The narrative of the character and the mechanics of the character have to match, or there's a disconnect that diminishes the value of the text.

                      Story is what matters and it is the only thing that matters, when it comes to a storyteller game or any role playing game for that mater.
                      This is One True Wayism at it's most direct. You don't get to decide what matters and what doesn't for everyone.

                      Why do people buy expensive and large rule books, with multiple rule book supplements, if story is all that matters? Because that's bullshit. Mechanics and rules matter. RPGs aren't just cool settings with nifty plot hooks where we freeform role-play inside of them. There's something, on some level, that adds some rules to make it a game (even the most narrative happy storygame RPGs still have rules and mechanics even if they're much, much simpler than things like the ST system). Have you played 10 Candles yet? If so, please explain how the rules of the game (however so simple) aren't vastly important to shaping the story and experience of it. If no... give it a try, because storygames are great at demonstrating exactly how much mechanics and rules facilitate good stories from our RPGs; also it's a great game.

                      Does it feel like she is a demigod when my character goes up against he?
                      But this is missing an important point. Does she feel like a demigod when there's plenty of elders around that can pull the same tricks on a neonate coterie despite being thousands of years younger and of higher generations?

                      Because that's what people aren't feeling. That these supposedly massive threats are actually that much more massive than other potential antagonistic NPCs that don't have the same story behind them.

                      You would have to rally the cause because many of the characters in the city are probably conditioned by her and they think it is their idea to not think of her as anything else but the cute little neonate Portia.
                      This is just GM fiat in a different form, it doesn't matter because it goes in both directions. She can be easier or harder to confront based on how much the ST decides she's done, but I could make a neonate that you need to rally the whole city together to move against if I wanted to as the ST, because if I'm the ST, I can set it up however I want. It doesn't help her feel like she's living up to her place in the story to get into what amounts to blank box hypotheticals filled in by you while you complain about blank box hypotheticals.

                      It doesn't matter if she has different stats or not, it should be expected that she will, because this is a new edition and works on completely different system than previous versions.
                      Having different stats is to be expected. Having stats that radically alter her abilities instead of trying to translate them to the realities of the new systems isn't.

                      Also... the system is not actually that different. It's a bigger change than between previous editions, but it wasn't like we jumped from the ST system to Modiphius's 2d20 system.

                      If you want to help people see the power of Helena in the game then you point out that this is a narative game about interesting characters and you show them how they can bend parties over backwards within that game.
                      Nobody's asking to see the power of V5-Helena. Her power is obvious, it's just - even within the reality of the V5 systems - not the power she used to have; though at least in her story she was explicitly nerfed in-universe so her weakened state makes some sense.

                      If they don't think they can tell the same stories you show them ways to do so. If they don't like the rules then you help them to rules that they like so they can tell the sotries that they enjoy.
                      No, you listen to them. If they ask for help, then you help. If you start throwing out "help" that's unwanted, you're not really helping.

                      You don't keep drooning on about how much has changed.
                      People aren't. There's a whole discussion about narrowing down what the actual problems in the system are as a game that's supposed to be in continuity with the previous editions.

                      Because storyand enjoyment of the story is all that matters.
                      Having people repeat nonsense like "role-playing not roll-playing," "mathtelling," or, "story is all that matters," drastically reduces my enjoyment of the stories I get out of RPGs if I have to deal with them while I'm playing. It doesn't endear me to wanting to try things with a game if people are saying it in defense of it either.

                      And no, this game is not a continuation of the story because the story ended with Gehenna.
                      Citation needed. Yes, retcons happened, but retcons imply that anything that was not retconned, or changed in the metaplot that advanced things from Revised to present day, remains true in the setting.

                      If this isn't a continuation... why is it called Vampire: the Masquerade 5th Edition, instead of something like Vampire: the Masquerade Alternate?

                      ...you now have to actual worry about the beast the game has went on about for 4 editions so that has changed,...
                      Yeah... stuff like this is actual edition warring.

                      But that is not a bad thing because nothing is gone.
                      It's a bad thing if I might have wanted to get into V5 and the One WoD, but it's going to change lots of stuff I liked but wanted to see improved instead of just done in a different fashion I don't find an actual improvement.

                      It's a bad thing if it makes edition tribalism worse for no good reason.

                      It's a bad thing if it pisses off fans of the older systems because books we would have gotten for 20th aren't going to happen now because WW/Paradox doesn't seem interested in approving new 20th books despite people wanting to write them and the 5th era books are still off in the distance (or even shouldn't be considered in competition!).

                      I have never in my life, sence I first picked up the 1st edition book, played in a game that didn't have any houserules to the system.
                      My group always plays a new game/edition RAW without house-rules the first time out until either (a) that becomes non-functional or (b) we get to a good stopping point and decide we care enough to house rule it instead of going back to stuff we already like.

                      So... yay anecdotal stories?

                      [quote...I will say yes, because I know the system well enough to know it is true.[/quote]

                      And I know the system well enough to know it is, at best, a highly forced situation. Again, as I asked before, the stats in CbN5 are supposed to be a weakened Helena. Show me, without house rules, how to make her before that? And you'll get a lot farther with me here. Or you can show me one of the other big heavy hitters that are explicitly still active in V5 but haven't had their stats updated yet.

                      I am not twisting anything.
                      Yeah, you are, I explained how.

                      The subtext of many posts is that V5 is bad because they ridicutlously depower or nerfed Helena,...
                      Nope. You reading that in to posts is on you. My issues with V5 are my issues with V5. My feelings about V5 aren't changed because Helena got nerfed because of the Beckoning because she's still powerful and it's perfectly good story fodder.

                      The arguments saying that V5 doesn't need more tools for representing high level powerhouses are bad though. There's lots of tools that the game could use besides buckets of dice and needing to have 6+ stats in Attributes/Skills/Disciplines, but those tools aren't in the game yet, in whatever form they might take.

                      ...got rid of elders, made me role hunger dice, adn the list goes on and on,....
                      And now you're just dragging in baggage into this conversation that doesn't help anything.

                      Some of us are trying to have a conversation about how V5 handles stating up the big heavy hitters in the the setting. If we can put aside our personal feelings (positive or negative) about V5 in general and just discuss the topic at hand, that's a good thing right? If someone's disrupting that conversation to stir up those sentiments that's a problem... but right now that's you.

                      keep your head down don't let people know your a fan if you know what's good for you and yes that is an oversimplification but it is not wrong.
                      It's wrong in the sense that it paints this as some sort of one-sided issue with the V5 fans as some poor put upon victims (despite there actually being plenty of V5 discussion here). Even if the majority opinion on this small section of the Internet is more critical of V5, nobody gets attacked just for being a fan of it, even if there's plenty of sore feelings on both sides from how nasty the edition wars got.

                      Everyone should be allowed to play the edition they like in the fashion they like.
                      And... who's stopping you around here?

                      ​​If you're really super passionate about this... maybe spend more time writing stuff at WW/Paradox for all of us that aren't going to get a 20th edition version of Hunter, Demon, or Mummy. Or all the people that aren't getting the full C20 experience between they're part of larger organized play that requires books be official and stuff the C20 writers really want to do is getting put in the ST Vault because it's not getting approval to go in official books.

                      I don't know but maybe... just maybe... V5 fans would feel more welcome if, you know, they were a bit more careful about the actual situation at hand, instead of things like trying to appeal for sympathy they're not actually showing others.

                      You may not be trying to edition waring but it does happen here.
                      Oh, sure, I'll completely own up to being an anti-V5 guy in general, and if it's a general thread about stuff, I'm not going to hide it at all. But this thread, which is what I meant by "here" when I posted it, wasn't having this problem.

                      This is saying V5 is not satisfactory.
                      It is saying the V5 core book is not satisfactory at accomplishing something that it wasn't expected to accomplish, but someone claimed it did anyway. So, no, it's not actually a condemnation of V5 at all. It's a refutation of an argument made about V5's mechanics and what they can do straight out of the core book.

                      So, yeah, again, stop twisting things. Also.... you do realize the opinions on something can be... mixed? And that sales aren't opinions, right?

                      And I don't have the right to complain about that?
                      Sure you do. Just don't expect people to care much; especially if you're just complaining to shut them up instead of actually voicing something of substance.

                      now that is twisting things.
                      Not really. If you can't see how obnoxious and divisive things like, "mathtelling," are... that's on you.

                      So I can only assume you missunderstood me again.
                      I think it's more that you're not really paying attention to what I'm saying rather than me not understanding what you're trying to say.

                      I do beleive if you haven't played the game enough you can't make a meaningful argument.
                      Please define "enough" in precise terms.

                      you literally do not have enough information.
                      There's plenty of arguments you can make without playing a game... reading the books for example, might be more than enough depending on the discussion. As well as the ability to extrapolate from past play experiences.

                      I have never read anything about Einstein so if I went around spouting off facts about Einstein I would not know "enough" about Einstein to have a "valid" opinon.
                      OK.... so how much do you have to study about Einstein before you can have a valid opinion about him? Do the two biographies I've read about him allow me to validly claim he was an absolutely shitty husband as an opinion... or do I need to read a third just to be sure? Four? Five? I don't know how many have been written about him in total but even more?

                      I'd personally say that the Wikipedia articles about his marriages are more than enough to make the point without more in depth study of the man; even if Wikipedia really shouldn't be taken at face value most of the time.

                      On the other hand, I'd say that talking about Einstein's influence on FDR's decision to push the development of atomic weapons is something that takes a bit more study due to it being a lot more complicated than one letter (no matter how much Einstein clearly regretted it later).

                      The whole point being that the "burden of knowledge" is variable. "Knowing enough to have a valid opinion on V5," isn't some binary state where there's some magical line where you're ignorant on one side, or well informed on the other. Nobody needs to to more than read V5 core to know that Amalgam powers don't let you break the cap on the number of powers per Discipline, as an example.

                      That's not tearing apart someones playstyle.
                      No, the tearing into other people's playstyles are in things like "mathtelling," or the big list of "what ifs," you posted.as if people had to play things in a way that addressed them all before they meet your bar of entry.

                      ....but you shouldn't comment on how the game sucks because you don't understand the game.
                      Great. I understand the game though. You can argue with me if you think I don't understand something, or if you think I'm getting something wrong or whatever... but you don't get to be the judge of who does and doesn't understand it just to shut people with criticisms of the game up.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

                        The problem I was point out was not "if" he could. The problems are:

                        1) The idea that it would be unique outside of happenstance doesn't work.
                        And why not? That's a power Mithras developed himself with his mastery of dominate and centuries to reason on the matter, he never divulged it, it's a proprietary power if you want. No one else should know it and the fact that you as a player know of it because is printed doesn't mean you could/should have it. You can ask the ST for that power and perhaps the ST could indulge your request and craft a story out of it. The idea that because it's printed you can have it it's simply a false assumption a lot of players (and a few ST) make. By the way even games like Pathfinder are moving away from the idea that you can have everything that's published (see uncommon or rare items/spells in PF2).

                        2) These are still characters. Treating them as stat blocks without personality, or coherence, is not useful to the game. "Mithras spend 500 years without arms, presuming that in the end he could grow the most powerful arms of all time, and nobody decided to just kill him while he didn't have arms to help defend himself in the meantime," doesn't really make a bunch of sense, and worse if all the ancients are apparently regularly doing something similar.
                        Well I agree on the part about characters not being their statblock but I don't see how this is relevant. No one said that Mithras spent his time "without arms" or something like it, just that what he could do with Dominate 9 he can do in V5 with High Level Amalgam Disciplines. He could have been an effective Prince and at the same time develop these powers without hindering himself and nothing in Mithras background suggests that he did.

                        3) Do not just say, "the ST can break the rules for NPCs" because then you're just proving the point that the rules are insufficient. If the game wants different rules for PCs and NPCs (which is a legit design method), fine, make the game that way from the ground up. As it stands, NPCs use the same rules as the PCs in V5.
                        I, as a Storyteller can (and do) design my NPCs as I see fit to serve the tale I want to tell. I don't need rules about what I can do and cannot do when building a chronicle because I can do anything I need to IN ORDER TO TELL AN ENTERTAINING STORY. Sure, I use the material I'm given because that saves time and I keep the mainframe of the rules of the game (otherwise I'd be playing something else, obviously) but I certainly don't track down XP for NPCs, I just make sure they are consistent and memorable. If there's something I don't like or I find it does little sense for my games I change it. A powerful and scary elder gets what he needs to be powerful and scary, possibly with matching weaknesses (because contrary to what a lot of players like to believe growing old for a Vampire doesn't just mean you increase in power, you also pick up weaknesses, which is a concept I find a few players find "unfun" because they have this power fantasy that dealing with limitations prevents them from doing everything they want and not being able to do that is apparently not enjoyable).

                        I don't really need to be reminded how badly the old books handled stating up NPCs in general, but that's not a point I've been making so it doesn't really matter.

                        The issue is what these characters are supposed to be able to do in the narrative of the game, and the rules not supporting it; which includes powers they had in old editions, because V5 is meant to exist in continuity with the previous editions.
                        The point is ST games have never been about stricts rules for building NPCs and V5 rules give a creative Storyteller the ability to represent the gap in power between Elders and neonates.

                        That said, I believe V5 needs a few things to make things work better:
                        • a book expanding on alternattive discipline powers and amalgam disciplines in order to help fleshing out the kind of arsenal Elders and above can amass (and what players can aspire to get their paws on).
                        • a book about elders (and possibly a separate one about ancillae) detailing how to set games for that kind of characters complete with a revision on the hunger system and possibly on humanity.



                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Haquim View Post
                          The point is ST games have never been about stricts rules for building NPCs and V5 rules give a creative Storyteller the ability to represent the gap in power between Elders and neonates.

                          That said, I believe V5 needs a few things to make things work better:
                          • a book expanding on alternattive discipline powers and amalgam disciplines in order to help fleshing out the kind of arsenal Elders and above can amass (and what players can aspire to get their paws on).
                          • a book about elders (and possibly a separate one about ancillae) detailing how to set games for that kind of characters complete with a revision on the hunger system and possibly on humanity.
                          Wading into the melee that is this interesting thread just to opinionate on this one point.

                          Publishing essential rules about the differences between elders and ancillae is a good idea, but it's also one that should have been obvious from the outset after four previous editions of the game. Republish the core book with this errata edited in, but I don't want to see another thin pair of Elder and Anarch books peddled to me at a dollar per page.

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                          • #58
                            That said, I believe V5 needs a few things to make things work better:
                            • a book expanding on alternattive discipline powers and amalgam disciplines in order to help fleshing out the kind of arsenal Elders and above can amass (and what players can aspire to get their paws on).
                            • a book about elders (and possibly a separate one about ancillae) detailing how to set games for that kind of characters complete with a revision on the hunger system and possibly on humanity.
                            You don't need many books for that, just one would be sufficient. One that would allow to craft a chronicle of Ages with the rules sustaining the progression in PC it would entail. That's part of the problem I see for the future : How can one do a chronicle of ages if at the point of the Beckoning all your efforts to attain some powers (and I don't mean only disciplines stuff) is rendered moot because your only choices are to be diminished in some capacity, hopelessly embroiled in the gehenna wars in the middle-east or eating every neonates from your area to satiate your delirious hunger ?..... Not so great a prospect. (But that's a tangent given the opening comment ^^)

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                            • #59
                              I am going to try to boil the points down into a more understandable way.

                              1. Story is all that matters. Story is not one thing. It is not one way to play. It is a feeling you get when you play a game and the tales that are told with your friends. It is that one amazing die roll that elevates the narrative forward or gets you blood pumping releasing endorphans into your brain, and it is the nerviousness you feel when you about to make a roll that could win it all or cause a TPK. It is completely subjective and can become anything your troop wants it to be. It is not solely defined by stats or rules or anything for that matter because we had stories way before we had games or game books. I am not saying that stats and rules don't flavor story, no matter how much you misunderstand my posts or keep insisting that I am trying ot tell you how to play. In modern nights RPGs are specifically designed to help you tell a story. From Fate to Rolemaster the purpose is to tell stories with your friends. System, Statistics and Narration are all a part of helping you tell that story. So yes, Story is all that matters. I don't see this as an opinion because it is a stated goal from almost every major RPG designer on the market. It is written in the foward of almost every book and they all say with emphatic cries, "if something gets in the way of you telling the story that you enjoy then change it." This does not mean your story can not be murder of the week, kicking in doors and dropping monsters like it ain't nobodies business, because this is also a Story.

                              I enjoy different games for different parts of their story:

                              a). Some of them are more for the challenges the system presents (V5) the struggle I have with managing my hunger and trying to function in the world where I have this beast in the back of my mind just waiting to come out and undo me.

                              b). Some are for the statistics of various peices of the game (Shadowrun) The optimising of my kit or load out is may favorite part of this game each peice of gear adding or changing the possibilties I have open to me in game. This is also why I like the current power structure in V5, because I get ot do some more optimization of my build.

                              c). Some are for the flexibility of the narration (Fate) Flexing my imagination to come up with new aspects is a very enjoyable part of this game for me.

                              d). Some are because I want to rolls some buckets of dice or just get in some fights. (Shadowrun, D&D, Revised) Not being able to think about the real world for a bit and just win, win, win is also a very enjoyable story to tell.

                              This is not me trying to say there is only "One true Way" to play a game it is saying there are infinate ways to play the game so boiling it down to just a single statblock or even a handfull of ones being compared is not a valid measure to me, because games are not played in a blank box. And yes, many of the comments in this thread are doing just that.


                              2. Comparing Statistics form two different systems also leads to misinterpritation. This is my opinion and I am stating that right now. I don't think you can determin if something is underpowered or overpowered by compairnign it to other games. They are two different systems and two different games. Shadowrun 4th edition and revised where very close in their mechanics but they are not the same game and I don't think it is fair to comparie Dunklizan to Helena, even though the dice pools are created the same way and they both role against a target number and if you really boil it down the percentages ar similar so long as the target number for WoD is 7 and these TN are used to determine number of success. but they are not the same games, because the Stories these two games tell is very different. Discipline versus magic versus cyberware versus whatever they have different stastistical tidbits that make them different.

                              Disciplines work diferently in V5 than previous editions, the power scale has been modified ,and the number of options wtihin those power levels has chaged as well as the number of disciplines in general. You even said it your self that the growth of a character is slower in V5 than previous games which means that the Strata stay stratified longer in V5 than other editions , because it is not the same game. Heck, how an elder gets is power level from in the first place is different. Paths have become rituals BP being added to the game and much more has changed. It is not the same game. I could see compairing her in 2nd to first as those two systems where much, much closer, but V5 is a different game. It would be like compairing a character in the Forgotten Realms of D&D 3rd edition to 2nd or 4th for that mater. It is not the same game. Or compairing a 3rd edition Shadowrun Character to one in 4th, they are not the same game. There is no translating her into the new edition their is only re-writing her to fit the new narrative becaue they are not the same game.


                              Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                              Citation needed. Yes, retcons happened, but retcons imply that anything that was not retconned, or changed in the metaplot that advanced things from Revised to present day, remains true in the setting.

                              If this isn't a continuation... why is it called Vampire: the Masquerade 5th Edition, instead of something like Vampire: the Masquerade Alternate?
                              ​​

                              Citation needed? um the Gehenna book and the end of time plot that happened during the year of reckoning?

                              We have very different definitions of what an edition change means. To me we are starting fresh for the most part and noting is set in stone until it actually shows up in a book. Every thing can change for any reason at anytime. Vampire the Masquerade ended in Revised. The 20th and V5 are telling new stories set in a world based on preveous editions but nothing from previous editions is truly cannon untill it appears in those editions. Everything has been changed and should be treated as fuzzy untill it actually shows up in a V5 book at this point. The number of small changes is truly numerous so I have just stopped trying to think of it as the same game but more of a game inspired by previous edition hence the smae name.

                              As far as the name thing, that doesn't seem fair to me. Shadowrun is still called Shadowrun after 3 to 4th switch, D&D is still called D&D after an edition switch the Forgotten realms are still called the realms, Spiderman is still spiderman no matter how many times they re-write his parts of his story. the Lord of the rings movies are still called Lord of the rings even though they changed many aspects of the stories. Sometimes things change and everything is up in the air until it isn't. Untill it is actually written in a V5 book it is not actually cannon for V5 it is only rumor and congecture on what was or wasn't.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Haquim View Post
                                That said, I believe V5 needs a few things to make things work better:
                                • a book expanding on alternattive discipline powers and amalgam disciplines in order to help fleshing out the kind of arsenal Elders and above can amass (and what players can aspire to get their paws on).
                                • a book about elders (and possibly a separate one about ancillae) detailing how to set games for that kind of characters complete with a revision on the hunger system and possibly on humanity.
                                This sounds like a good Idea, I am hoping my Elder home brew is enjoyable to people or at least inspires them to write there own untill we get something else or to fill a nitche. We had 1 book in the past if I recall correctly, called Elysium: the Elder Wars? That was Second edition though, so I wouldn't mind seeing an update to this book.

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