I know theres a similiar topic but not exactly what i need so...
Reading the clanbook and a few threads on this board and the Wiki, its not really clear to me if a vampire who chooses to become a Baali via the dark thaumaturgic ritual actually becomes a full fledged Baali or not. Ive heard arguments from both sides so my ideas are
1) If Apostasy merely would mean that someone from say Clan ventrue gains Daimonion at cost of another Clan discipline, why do the ritual? You can gain dark thaumaturgy and daimonion by making a pact with a demon. No Baali needed?
2) if Apostasy means a change of loyality why is there a dark thaumaturgic ritual needed? Anyone can become an infernalist and there are many infernalists that are not baali or even Kindred.
3) if Apostasy is all about Joining the Baali Cult / Sect and partake in their weakness....why do it? You can aid the Baali without this.
4) Thaumaturgic rituals can genuinely change your blood. We see that in the standard powers of increasing you bloods potency or in Assamite case, lowering your generation permamently. Im not sure how far other changes are documented but the tremere did at least experiment with it trying to change their blood but then settled for diablerie.
5) If Apostasy doesnt change your blood, why do you gain the Baali weakness? That would only come from a pact and you can do that without the Baali. More so, how could you be detected as Baali if you are an apostate?
6) If the Apostasy does not change your clan, how are the childer you embrace pure Baali? Or are they whatever former clan you were i didnt see the sources on those being clear.
So finally...i am not sure but it sounds strange that youd need a dark thaumaturgic ritual and "second embrace" if id didnt change your actual Clan. The way i see it, the second embrace makes you a full fledged Baali of Clan Baali in every aspect BUT a Bloodline of Clan Baali, with the Bloodline being whatever your former clan has been just like Bloodlines tend to keep the discilplines of their parent clan but just switch one discipline for th Bloodline one but are in every aspect of that bloodlines blood.
So my guess is you become clan baali, bloodline ventrue if you were former ventrue.
Thoughts? Am i wrong? Did i misread / interpret something? it just sounds weird to me to go through all that effort just to gain a discipline that isnt even that useful. Not sure how much in game vampires know about daimonion but its, mechanicly, rather underwhelming. Dark thaumaturgy though is raw power but you dont need the Baali to get that.
Also i think it makes the Baali much more antagonistic and evil if they can atually change ones bloodline and thus not only gain an infernal ally like a cult but actually bereft a clan of is blood and progeny, kinda making the antedeluvian weaker and lessen the number of his blood while strengthening their own. Kinda makes the whole "Lords" (Baali) thing sound more devious and correct as they may genuinely end up with the most powerful kainites f they convert say an antedeluvian into a Baali rightfully making them a clan
Reading the clanbook and a few threads on this board and the Wiki, its not really clear to me if a vampire who chooses to become a Baali via the dark thaumaturgic ritual actually becomes a full fledged Baali or not. Ive heard arguments from both sides so my ideas are
1) If Apostasy merely would mean that someone from say Clan ventrue gains Daimonion at cost of another Clan discipline, why do the ritual? You can gain dark thaumaturgy and daimonion by making a pact with a demon. No Baali needed?
2) if Apostasy means a change of loyality why is there a dark thaumaturgic ritual needed? Anyone can become an infernalist and there are many infernalists that are not baali or even Kindred.
3) if Apostasy is all about Joining the Baali Cult / Sect and partake in their weakness....why do it? You can aid the Baali without this.
4) Thaumaturgic rituals can genuinely change your blood. We see that in the standard powers of increasing you bloods potency or in Assamite case, lowering your generation permamently. Im not sure how far other changes are documented but the tremere did at least experiment with it trying to change their blood but then settled for diablerie.
5) If Apostasy doesnt change your blood, why do you gain the Baali weakness? That would only come from a pact and you can do that without the Baali. More so, how could you be detected as Baali if you are an apostate?
6) If the Apostasy does not change your clan, how are the childer you embrace pure Baali? Or are they whatever former clan you were i didnt see the sources on those being clear.
So finally...i am not sure but it sounds strange that youd need a dark thaumaturgic ritual and "second embrace" if id didnt change your actual Clan. The way i see it, the second embrace makes you a full fledged Baali of Clan Baali in every aspect BUT a Bloodline of Clan Baali, with the Bloodline being whatever your former clan has been just like Bloodlines tend to keep the discilplines of their parent clan but just switch one discipline for th Bloodline one but are in every aspect of that bloodlines blood.
So my guess is you become clan baali, bloodline ventrue if you were former ventrue.
Thoughts? Am i wrong? Did i misread / interpret something? it just sounds weird to me to go through all that effort just to gain a discipline that isnt even that useful. Not sure how much in game vampires know about daimonion but its, mechanicly, rather underwhelming. Dark thaumaturgy though is raw power but you dont need the Baali to get that.
Also i think it makes the Baali much more antagonistic and evil if they can atually change ones bloodline and thus not only gain an infernal ally like a cult but actually bereft a clan of is blood and progeny, kinda making the antedeluvian weaker and lessen the number of his blood while strengthening their own. Kinda makes the whole "Lords" (Baali) thing sound more devious and correct as they may genuinely end up with the most powerful kainites f they convert say an antedeluvian into a Baali rightfully making them a clan
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