Baali Apostasy questions

[Orkar]

I know theres a similiar topic but not exactly what i need so...

Reading the clanbook and a few threads on this board and the Wiki, its not really clear to me if a vampire who chooses to become a Baali via the dark thaumaturgic ritual actually becomes a full fledged Baali or not. Ive heard arguments from both sides so my ideas are

1) If Apostasy merely would mean that someone from say Clan ventrue gains Daimonion at cost of another Clan discipline, why do the ritual? You can gain dark thaumaturgy and daimonion by making a pact with a demon. No Baali needed?

2) if Apostasy means a change of loyality why is there a dark thaumaturgic ritual needed? Anyone can become an infernalist and there are many infernalists that are not baali or even Kindred.

3) if Apostasy is all about Joining the Baali Cult / Sect and partake in their weakness....why do it? You can aid the Baali without this.

4) Thaumaturgic rituals can genuinely change your blood. We see that in the standard powers of increasing you bloods potency or in Assamite case, lowering your generation permamently. Im not sure how far other changes are documented but the tremere did at least experiment with it trying to change their blood but then settled for diablerie.

5) If Apostasy doesnt change your blood, why do you gain the Baali weakness? That would only come from a pact and you can do that without the Baali. More so, how could you be detected as Baali if you are an apostate?

6) If the Apostasy does not change your clan, how are the childer you embrace pure Baali? Or are they whatever former clan you were i didnt see the sources on those being clear.

So finally...i am not sure but it sounds strange that youd need a dark thaumaturgic ritual and "second embrace" if id didnt change your actual Clan. The way i see it, the second embrace makes you a full fledged Baali of Clan Baali in every aspect BUT a Bloodline of Clan Baali, with the Bloodline being whatever your former clan has been just like Bloodlines tend to keep the discilplines of their parent clan but just switch one discipline for th Bloodline one but are in every aspect of that bloodlines blood.
So my guess is you become clan baali, bloodline ventrue if you were former ventrue.

Thoughts? Am i wrong? Did i misread / interpret something? it just sounds weird to me to go through all that effort just to gain a discipline that isnt even that useful. Not sure how much in game vampires know about daimonion but its, mechanicly, rather underwhelming. Dark thaumaturgy though is raw power but you dont need the Baali to get that.

Also i think it makes the Baali much more antagonistic and evil if they can atually change ones bloodline and thus not only gain an infernal ally like a cult but actually bereft a clan of is blood and progeny, kinda making the antedeluvian weaker and lessen the number of his blood while strengthening their own. Kinda makes the whole "Lords" (Baali) thing sound more devious and correct as they may genuinely end up with the most powerful kainites f they convert say an antedeluvian into a Baali rightfully making them a clan

[Reasor]

These are all good questions! In no particular order:

1) It was always my understanding that Daimonion becomes an in-clan discipline for the Apostate, which has a permanent effect on the cost of new Disicipline point gains going forward. The Apostate is able to buy dots in Daimionion at in-clan costs, and any further dots gained in the sacrificed discipline are paid for as if it were now an out-of-clan discipline. This is a very rulesy way of depicting a deep change to how the Apostate's vampiric blood flexes its power. The Apostate was one kind of monster before the ritual, and is something else afterward. It's all flavor.

5) and 6) I would therefore rule that the ritual does change the Apostate's blood in permanent and (very important) spooky ways. The Apostate might still show up as a Toreador or whatever in a thaumaturgical blood test, especially if infiltrating society and sowing distrust is an important part of the role they serve in a story, but any childer that the Apostate sires after the ritual should be Baali.

2) Baali have a monopoly on the apostasy ritual because it makes the Baali scary that they have this unique power. Some ancient vampire from another clan threw its own blood into a well once, and Baali crawled out. They're a bloodline that breaks the rules, because it makes them look and feel more supernatural.

3) You gain the trust of a secret society by joining the secret society. Willingness to undergo apostasy shows the Baali that the recruit isn't a secret undercover Inquisitor or other enemy.

[Orkar]

Just found one more interesting thing

Its said the apostasy ritual is a dark thaumaturgic ritual...but then Daimonion 7 has this:

The Re-Embrace: Transform a vampire into a Baali

to add to mystery...so...do you become baali by blood through the re embrace, the ritual or both?

[Penelope]

Not sure if this is relevant, but there are two different kinds of Baali: the children of Nergal and the Molochim. The children of Nergal are the Baali in Lore of the Bloodlines. They want to bring about the return of the Children of the Outer Dark. The Molochim do stuff like sacrificing children to keep the Children of the Outer Dark asleep and are found in V20 Guide to the Tal’Mahe’Ra.

[Orkar]

well and there is the swarm spawn from the unnamed. But they share the same disciplines even if they go for opposite goals just like you might say about antitribu of any clan. so you could say Molochim are antitribu Baali but they aint seperate bloodlines

[Reasor]

Just found one more interesting thing

Its said the apostasy ritual is a dark thaumaturgic ritual...but then Daimonion 7 has this:

The Re-Embrace: Transform a vampire into a Baali

to add to mystery...so...do you become baali by blood through the re embrace, the ritual or both?

It depends on which edition of the game the book is from, who wrote it, and what the Storyteller prefers to use. The iteration of Daimonion that you've cited presents an alternative version of Daimonion that doubles down on the re-embrace being a Baali trademark by putting it in their clan discipline instead of in Dark Thaumaturgy. That's all.

[Kael03]

Not sure if this is relevant, but there are two different kinds of Baali: the children of Nergal and the Molochim. The children of Nergal are the Baali in Lore of the Bloodlines. They want to bring about the return of the Children of the Outer Dark. The Molochim do stuff like sacrificing children to keep the Children of the Outer Dark asleep and are found in V20 Guide to the Tal’Mahe’Ra.

All that means is there are 2 factions among the Baali with different goals. They aren't separate bloodlines or "clans".

But on topic, the ritual for apostasy basically converts Daimonion into an in-clan discipline and whatever discipline is replaced becomes out of clan for the sake of experience buying. The person converted also isn't necessarily full Baali, but their clan with some "taint" or "difference" in their vitae.

[Penelope]

Thanks. I didn’t understand that.

[Mister_Dunpeal]

One could surmise that Bloodlines are a modification/subversion of the Curse of Caine in some way, and you probably can't subvert God's (or a God's) will without there being some consequences. Especially if you're doing so infernally (which probably amounts to a reality hack rewriting the Baali curse in some distinctive way if we follow infernal ties to a logical conclusion. If we look at DtF's perspective, a Baali may be a 'kind' of Thrall the same way you can have 'Infernal' imbued under the right conditions.)

The other side of this coin (at least before they were written out and subsumed into MtR's cosmology) would be the Children of Osiris I think.

[Matt the Bruins fan]

Haquim and Malkav have wrought similar changes to the blood of large swaths of their respective clans, so there are probably a number of viable methods of achieving the same effect.

[Illuminostro]

In my opinion, Apostasy, mechanically is about gaining access to Daimoinon. Which isn't the most impressive discipline.

Story wise, it's about being accepted into the inner mysteries and horrors of being a Baali. Anyone can be a pawn to Baali plans. Only a true, trusted monster is invited to become an Apostate.

[Illuminostro]

Haquim and Malkav have wrought similar changes to the blood of large swaths of their respective clans, so there are probably a number of viable methods of achieving the same effect.

It's blatantly implied that the 3rd gen have complete dominion over their blood descendants. The Tzimisce and Malkavians are examples. Physical, and mental, respectively. And later, the "curse" the Ravnos Ante pushed when it died.

[Jeevesosiris]

Now here is a topic close to my heart.

I have recently in game had a Baali NPC perform Daimonion 7 - The Re-Embrace on a Ventrue NPC for dark and nefarious reasons.

How I run it is that I have the "victim" become a Baali completely. They lose their previous clan characteristics including clan flaw and revert to a Baali in every way that matters. Those they embrace are Baali, their weakness switches to the Baali clan (which could lead to some interesting plot twists if you corrupted a Nosferatu for example) and their blood shows that they are Baali. They lose a Clan Discipline (I had the Ventrue lose Fortitude 1) and gain a point in Daimonion which they can then purchase for clan costs as if they had been a Baali from the start.

For me this power and the Apostasy rituals that were there before they concreted Daimonion 7 are the ultimate weapon for the Baali now. They are literally consuming other vampires and permanently and irreversibly adding them to their own ranks. Its essentially like joining a cult... forever... and so is far more to do with plot and story than the actual mechanical benefits of the switch in terms of stats and powers.

In answer to some of the questions from the OP

1/2/3) Why do the ritual? In my game it was done for a specific spooky reason and the "victim" was very much a victim. The ritual allows a Baali to essentially strip away another vampire's identity and make them a permanent fixture on "Team Bad Guy." In terms of in game mechanics, yeah becoming Baali isn't a huge advantage, but it has huge plot and flavour implications. Maybe the main Baali needs a scapegoat/ maybe they need to sacrifice another Baali/ maybe they are just screwing with a rival by turning their lover into a Baali? Maybe they need 13 Baali for an evil demon summoning ritual? My example of this (I am sorry if I am being vague here, this plot has not come out in full in my game and i know some of the PCs frequent this forum) has somebody essentially stealing a child of another clan and making them their own. Its a power play, not a way of the "victim" (Who has no real understanding they are being manipulated) to get more powerful... it is however a way for them to get far more interesting.

4/5/6) Magic. That is pretty much the answer. Infernal, old, unnatural magic. In my game those who undergo this change are now a Baali through and through and perhaps in some deep dark way... they were always meant to be?

I do agree that Daimonion itself is a bit crappy. I just see that switch to this discipline as a consequence of the Re-Embrace rather than a benefit.

[MyWifeIsScary]

I actually really dislike apostasy (and I can't remember being impressed by their entry in LotB, the which was mostly a poor book, but they weren't the worst) I like the baali. I love the baali. I once played a Baali (Who, apart from the usual road of sin stuff and one particular incident with a random family, never did anything particularly demonic and mostly just pretended to be a toreador) she was a riot of fun until I made some false steps at Elysium (that were me not thinking the character through after a short haitus)

Baali damnation just rubs me the wrong way. Oh yes, Socially they're damned. That persecution's a fascinating thing to play. But being damned for being a vampire and extra damned for being the wrong kind of vampire just screams 'off'. It's not Mage or Werewolf where you're consenting to the inversion of your soul, You've just got the wrong blood in your mouth. If vampires should have an 'opt out of damnation' thing upon embrace there wouldn't be any. It just doesn't fit vampire. The metaphysics and "read between the lines" have always suggested to me, at least, that the baali were just another bloodline who were mustache twirlers because they routinely picked up dark thaumaturgy and engaged in infernalism because of their proximity to demons, not because they were actually something demonic (any more than say, Lasombra). Diamonion seems like a power an angel could've used.

All the bloodlines are fine, unless they practice infernalism, unless they're from this bloodline known to practice infernalism.
Apostasy just seems metaphysically wrong. It doesn't belong in Vampire. Like, Getting a diffirent in-clan discipline like the St.Gustav rite? Great. Walking the spiral? Not a thing vampires do.

[Illuminostro]

I actually really dislike apostasy (and I can't remember being impressed by their entry in LotB, the which was mostly a poor book, but they weren't the worst) I like the baali. I love the baali. I once played a Baali (Who, apart from the usual road of sin stuff and one particular incident with a random family, never did anything particularly demonic and mostly just pretended to be a toreador) she was a riot of fun until I made some false steps at Elysium (that were me not thinking the character through after a short haitus)

Baali damnation just rubs me the wrong way. Oh yes, Socially they're damned. That persecution's a fascinating thing to play. But being damned for being a vampire and extra damned for being the wrong kind of vampire just screams 'off'. It's not Mage or Werewolf where you're consenting to the inversion of your soul, You've just got the wrong blood in your mouth. If vampires should have an 'opt out of damnation' thing upon embrace there wouldn't be any. It just doesn't fit vampire. The metaphysics and "read between the lines" have always suggested to me, at least, that the baali were just another bloodline who were mustache twirlers because they routinely picked up dark thaumaturgy and engaged in infernalism because of their proximity to demons, not because they were actually something demonic (any more than say, Lasombra). Diamonion seems like a power an angel could've used.

All the bloodlines are fine, unless they practice infernalism, unless they're from this bloodline known to practice infernalism.
Apostasy just seems metaphysically wrong. It doesn't belong in Vampire. Like, Getting a diffirent in-clan discipline like the St.Gustav rite? Great. Walking the spiral? Not a thing vampires do.

To me, Daimoinon (?) seemed like Auspex/Dementation with Lure of Flames thrown in for free. Level 6 and beyond got dumb.