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V5- The Masquerade was always untenable.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
    The Tremere just don't recruit radical feminists who want a pagan religion.
    First, that statement assumes the neonates, and recruits, are not keeping secrets from sires and others in a chantry. Which is nonsense. A signifigant portion of the game is about secrets and scheming behind other people's backs.

    Second, someone who was not a feminist - and they don't have to be radical feminists either - might well become a feminist after 70 years of working for an entire clan of hidebound toerags.

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    • #17
      Months of careful vetting, Auspex, dominate. I wouldn't be surprised if the tremere had interviews. The Tremere recruit largely from people with a lot of education, people that're at least in their 20's. People who write papers and reports and who have records.

      And, y'know, even though the clan has a patriarch, I'd never blame anything that goes bad on 'patriarchy'. It's like calling california communist because it's got more socially 'left' policies in place than the rest of the states, even though economically... Are you getting my drift? Only in the tremere clan they average at 4 dots of intelligence so none of that nonsense works. The Tremere get a sweet deal, the only problem (for a tremere) is that a bunch of clans are jealous of their success.
      It's really off topic. Can't you just trust me, as someone who's played the Tremere and read all the clan books, that Carna would be absurd to the overwhelming majority of Tremere?
      Maybe you're a femenist, that's great. But your ideology doesn't hold ground with the tremere. It's just not relevant to tremere. They've got women on the council of 7; that's a pretty high glass ceiling don't you think? By forcing privileged white middle class feminism on the clan when it doesn't belong... It just makes feminists look toxic. It's seriously a short sighted change obviously drawn about by a very shallow look at the Tremere clan.. I can't see why should the blood bonds fail, anyone'd go 'You know what this clan needs? Feminism!' as opposed to any other social changes that might actually hold relevance for undead who actually benefit from 'divide and rule''

      But seriously, we're well off topic.


      Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
        The Tremere don't recruit from the types of people who think gender studies is legit useful. What sane, mental primary goes 'Yes, That Carna has the right idea'? Paganism's dumb. Why take risky (possibly infernal) religious magic when you could use old reliable? The sociology just points to it not happening. You might as well pitch a complete firearm ban at a NRA rally or Trickle down economics to Karl Marx.
        Idk, if Carna said "look at this new type of magic I've got" and then used it to break the blood bonds that had been keeping me bound to the Pyramid for the past three hundred years, I'd probably think "yeah, this new type of magic is worth a closer look".

        Pre-V5 there were, what, five different types of well-known blood magic at least (Thaumaturgy, Dur-An-Ki, Akhu, Wanga, Koldunism), each with at least a dozen different paths that apply it in different ways, and that's not even getting into Necromancy or the lesser-known magicks (Sielanic, Nahuallotl, Sadhana, etc). I always got the impression that the Tremere, upon seeing a new type of blood magic, would typically go "hey that's cool let's see if we can find ways to steal that and twist it and make it work for us", not "bah, this magic doesn't fit my worldview so I refuse to believe that it exists".

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Draconis View Post

          Idk, if Carna said "look at this new type of magic I've got" and then used it to break the blood bonds that had been keeping me bound to the Pyramid for the past three hundred years, I'd probably think "yeah, this new type of magic is worth a closer look".
          I think this is a magic they already had, but more directly, I'd be extremely skeptical and would at least learn about it first (or stomp out the threat to the clan)
          . I always got the impression that the Tremere, upon seeing a new type of blood magic, would typically go "hey that's cool let's see if we can find ways to steal that and twist it and make it work for us", not "bah, this magic doesn't fit my worldview so I refuse to believe that it exists".
          Indeed, but 'twist this magic to work with my methods" is a far cry from "change my entire framework and work from the ground up"


          Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
            (or stomp out the threat to the clan)
            See, I think they tried to do exactly this, but then Vienna happened. There have been heretical groups of Tremere using forbidden types of magic before (see the Telyavelics), they've just usually been stomped out by the Pyramid. It was a lucky coincidence (OR WAS IT??) that Carna's heresy happened right around the time the Pyramid fell apart and could no longer send Astors to go slaughter everyone.

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            • #21
              She used the book of the grave war to break the curse. I doubt many, if any, tremere in the pyramid would have read it since it would break the blood bond and show them that their being manipulated by their elders. She's against the jyhad and is working to free clan tremere from it.

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              • #22
                It's not 'top down' sorta thing. If I were a neonate/ancillae tremere within her vicinity, I'd do my utmost to destroy her. If she gets her way, clan members would defect, which would compromise the strength of everyone in the clan (defector or not) which would make me, a member of the clan, vulnerable to the long, long, long list of enemies the tremere have.

                Originally posted by Killtron View Post
                She used the book of the grave war to break the curse. I doubt many, if any, tremere in the pyramid would have read it since it would break the blood bond and show them that their being manipulated by their elders. She's against the jyhad and is working to free clan tremere from it.
                Spoken like a true neonate. Hook, Line and sinker.
                An elder rises and takes one of the hot topics of today, uses a powerful artifact unheard of, puts ham in her award speech, and promises to free us all from Tyranny.. Yeah, sure.
                Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 11-15-2019, 07:18 PM.


                Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by blailton View Post

                  Agreed. Now with every vampire killing one person each night/doing stupid things from the compulsion chart theres no place to the masquerade.

                  But... you don't have to kill someone every night. Hunger 1 is not anything. Averages will show the need to feed every three or so days without excessive Rousing, and that's not accounting for easy feeding like Herd.

                  What, do you think every vampire is spending blood every ten seconds to buff their strength to lift their couch to find the TV remote? I mean, holy shit.

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                  • #24
                    While a standard starting level vampire might not be a huge masquerade risk (though Messy Criticals are still a problem for the masquerade even at Hunger 1), as Blood Potency goes up, the need to murder to keep your Hunger low also goes up (as your minimum Hunger without killing goes up, and you lose access to safer feeding). The more potent vampires in the setting are pretty significant masquerade risks when you consider these things in too.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                      While a standard starting level vampire might not be a huge masquerade risk (though Messy Criticals are still a problem for the masquerade even at Hunger 1), as Blood Potency goes up, the need to murder to keep your Hunger low also goes up (as your minimum Hunger without killing goes up, and you lose access to safer feeding). The more potent vampires in the setting are pretty significant masquerade risks when you consider these things in too.
                      Yes, the can be. But Elders are more rare anyway (and not the default PC option, and if you're tracking every SPCs Hunger in minutiae outside of when they're 'on screen' and the dramatically appropriate times, I'm glad you enjoy paperwork), and often have setups in place (logically) to mitigate much of this. And instead of being 'stompy Juggernaut powerhouses throwing Disicplines left, right and center' like people portray them when most players talk about Elders in this fandom, the Elders should play the Jyhad, like the books portray them. Acting from the shadows, through intermediaries, Influence to get rid of the bodies. etc.

                      You have to kill to get below Hunger 2 at BP7, which is the top level of an 7th Gen. 7th Gens shouldn't be appearing in every story, even in old VtM. Poeple loved their elders, sure, but elders in prior editions were even more endemic of the 'superheroes with fangs,' especially when you got into the elder powers that people are complaining that are missing from this edition, with such flashy stuff as 'turn into a fucking dragon' or 'run so fast you break the sound barrier' or 'flick a penny through a dude and kill him'. So they've always been potential and dangerous masquerade breaches. It's just now they can't go 'oh, need a juice box, low on red bar'.

                      How much of VtM's fiction talks about torpid elders manipulating things from the shadows, staying out of sight, and using the youngers to do the dirty deeds? A lot. And that's what this change with BP and Hunger backs up.

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                      • #26
                        EDIT: The forum double posted my reply for some reason.

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                        • #27
                          I'm not sure what the arguments are here to be honest and I wish I was but from what I can gather, here's my thoughts:

                          1. Vampires are not infalliable: The Camarilla became complacent, selfish, and corrupt with less of a focus on the Masquerade vs. more a focus on defeating the Sabbat as well as Anarchs. As a result, they used mortals against them and this resulted in the humans finding out. This was monumentally stupid but entirely on-brand because IN THESE VERY FORUMS massive numbers of fans refuse to believe humans can tie their own shoe-laces. This despite the fact vampires ARE human and are only as good as a human being is plus superpowers. Some have been at this for centuries but that just means they're set in their ways.

                          2. The government is not stupid: I suggest everyone pick up Project: Twilight because it's one of the all-time best supplements in the WOD. But the government is not made of morons and have been piecing together more and more every year. V20 showed them backtracking but clearly that didn't last. With all the various people learning things it was only a matter of time until they put it together.

                          3. The government knowing is how you maintain the Masquerade: In today's modern society, the SI covering up the undead as part of their war on them is actually an additional layer of why the Masquerade should exist.

                          4. Carna is a serial killing cult leader: And? That's pretty typical of a lot of elders. She founded a Lilith cult (which are always popular among female vampires) and introduced a bunch of pagan blood magic to it then invited a bunch of Tremere women to join. There's also apparently a bunch of men too. Maybe she found a book by House Diende or Embraced a Verbena, it happens. The Tremere can't crack down on it because they had their own serious problems with Tremere/Goratrix, Saulot, the Wyrm, the Salubri Antitribu, the Assamites, and Groundskeeper Willy. That's before the Second Inquisition.

                          5. Elders are actually a lot more helpless than you think: During the daytime you are limited to your Path/Humanity score. Which means most Elders can use about 3-4 dice. All of their massive godlike powers? Gone. Vampires pretend this isn't the case because they refuse to acknowledge they're scavengers not predators.


                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                            IN THESE VERY FORUMS massive numbers of fans refuse to believe humans can tie their own shoe-laces.
                            Really? Cause I've legit seen all of one person be at this level on the forums, and that person believed that civilian Ghouls could end SI delta squads without breaking a sweat and that Kindred society would trust hedge mages before the Tremere.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by GilbyTheFat View Post
                              Really? Cause I've legit seen all of one person be at this level on the forums, and that person believed that civilian Ghouls could end SI delta squads without breaking a sweat and that Kindred society would trust hedge mages before the Tremere.
                              There's general variants but they seem to be, "The Tremere would never lose!", "The Sabbat would never lose!", "The Camarilla would never screw up!", "The Nosferatu trump the NSA", and "The Masquerade is perfect!"


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                                There's general variants but they seem to be, "The Tremere would never lose!", "The Sabbat would never lose!", "The Camarilla would never screw up!", "The Nosferatu trump the NSA", and "The Masquerade is perfect!"
                                I'll admit I'm semi-inclined toward the Nosferatu vs NSA one (only semi-inclined though because I'm still happy to use it when it can tie into plot for my games), but I definitely agree with you that the Kine are far from completely incompetent halfwits drooling on their own shoulders.

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