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Handing v5 to modiphius was a mistake.

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  • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    I think the reason is fairly obvious (in fact I've had people cite this directly in defense of the design choices): this is where the V5 developers felt they could sufficiently give the game broad appeal. Tenets and Convictions allow groups to tailor a central part of the game to their preferred playstyle.

    What this misses is, ultimately, that the rest of the game doesn't actually give a shit about that. The writing about things like how evil vampires are doesn't have a dial attached to it, making Tenet selection at odds with the stated mood of the game if I put in Tenets that go against the grain. Making it so a more superhero with fangs style game doesn't drop Humanity like a rock is nice, but it doesn't mean I actually want to use V5 advanced combat mechanics + Hunger dice.
    Superheroes with fangs are still tempted to feed on humans, that's why they're vampires. Angel, Nick Knight, and the other Vampire Detectives still are tempted. Even if they frenzy, usually they can stop before they drain someone dry.

    The Hunger Rules are not as punishing as people think.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
      Superheroes with fangs are still tempted to feed on humans, that's why they're vampires.
      Yes, however those moments are governed by dramatic narrative, not dice rolls. For people that want superheroes with fangs style game, hunger as more of a Fate Aspect style mechanic is, IME, a more positive game play approach. There is a mechanical incentive to allowing the drawbacks of being a vampire into the game, but it's never going to be a random moment, as it's always instigated by either the GM or player purposefully.

      Even if they frenzy, usually they can stop before they drain someone dry.
      They also exist in settings with different rules. For example while having a particularly powerful sire, and being active for a considerable amount of time, are both common tropes for the tortured vampire trying to do go, they don't have to deal with Blood Potency going up and taking animal blood off the menu, or things like mechanically speaking, at Blood Potency 5+ you literally cannot stop a Hunger Frenzy until you kill a human.

      Because, you know, different stories that are going for different beats, and V5 not catering to as many as pre-V5 did is kinda the point.

      The Hunger Rules are not as punishing as people think.
      1) Saying it doesn't make it true.

      2) You're talking to me, someone that doesn't even own the books, but apparently knows the rules better than you from memory alone (though I do check with my friend that does a lot on these threads to make sure I'm recalling things correctly). You're not going to get by with this sort of lazy push back when I can toss the actual text back at you.

      3) You're neglecting the point of V5 advanced combat + Hunger for an action heavy game; aka the antithesis of what everyone cites as Hunger not being so bad. It's a situation where you have (a) lots of rolling so statistically uncommon events like rolling two Hunger 10s at Hunger 2 become likely to occur (b) players want to use their powers so they're going to be Rousing frequently or they're not really getting to be superheroes with fangs and (c) advanced combat is dull as dishwater and deeply lacking in anything to really call it "advanced" rather than just more roll intensive making Rousing worse.

      So please, just fucking stop trying to defend things with these bland dismissals. The fact that you don't care about this shit doesn't make it incorrect.

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      • 2) You're talking to me, someone that doesn't even own the books, but apparently knows the rules better than you from memory alone (though I do check with my friend that does a lot on these threads to make sure I'm recalling things correctly). You're not going to get by with this sort of lazy push back when I can toss the actual text back at you.
        You assume I'm not entirely confidant of my conclusions.

        :eye roll:


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • Is there any updates on the PG?

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          • Originally posted by Lian View Post
            Is there any updates on the PG?
            Someone posted an update, I thought in this thread, stating that they emailed Modi and were told by Gencon but not before March. I'll see if I can find it again to link it, in case it was in another thread.

            Personally, I'm fine with the delay. It'll give them time to fix the decisions they made that got the Tzimisce kicked back, and maybe give Paradox/WW time to approve a version of the Ravnos they're comfortable with.

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            • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
              You assume I'm not entirely confidant of my conclusions.
              No, I assume that you hold to conclusions despite things like having people cite the book at you, because you'll misrepresent V5 before admitting that critiques of it that aren't what you consider flaws might be valid.

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              • The V20 Ravnos was fine. I don't see the issue with them. Only thing to do is have them embrace frequently to build up their numbers and return to their former strength.


                CTPhipps sometimes admits to things he doesn't like with V5. Admitedly he often doesn't write these things down in a way that would suggest he dislikes them, but he has, indeed, glossed over things he doesn't like about V5. There are more unreasonable people out there.

                But for realsies; Is there a single thing V5 does better than V20? Other than that it hasn't released a very questionable DAV5 with peaks and valleys of quality. I don't know why anyone would look at V20 and go "Yep, Let's do this instead" other than, y'know, to make their homebrews official.


                V5 is not VTM

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                • While it's a bit unfair due to the circumstances of why V20 was produced, V5 is head and shoulders better at bringing new ideas to the WoD.

                  There's very few things in V5 that I think have no potential to be good, and could have been a better game than V20, but a mix of three things stopped that:

                  1) The legacy of VtM itself. This is always going to be a design struggle for anyone, of any skill level, to deal with. Some people are always going to feel you went too far, and other people are going to feel you wasted chances not pushing things farther; some people are even going to feel you fell down on both depending on the part of the game. Finding that middle ground is hard. Ultimately making it work takes time, and a strong content editorial team. Which gets to:

                  2) Time. V5 was rushed. I'm comfortable asserting this as a fact because they cancelled public beta testing so they could get V5 out for Gen-Con that year. If there's been anything demonstrated in gaming (not just TT RPGs) over the past decade, it's that customers are used to waiting for the "final" game to be out. We're used to needing a dozen or more patches, plus some DLC, for video games to get to what used to be considered a product you'd actually release. And it's generally hated... but not hated enough that people don't throw money at the games anyway. The problem for TTRPGs, is that physical books are still considered the primary way to go over ebooks. You can't patch or integrate DLC directly into a physical book. But customers also reward just taking the time to get it done right the first time, within limits. I guarantee that WW would have lost 0 customers if they said, "we really hoped to have V5 ready, but we want to do a few more development passes on it, so we're moving the release date to next Gen-Con," and if they final product improved on things, they'd probably have gained more customers too (or at least shut up more people like me). Which leads into:

                  3) All the cool new ideas V5 has to offer (though I temper that with "new to VtM" since there isn't some grand innovative thing in there, but I think that's overrated since design is mostly using stuff someone else beat you to designing, but using it in a fun different way rather than inventing whole cloth), are integrated incredibly poorly with each other, or lack attention to detail. This is also where I feel the whole idea of making VtM "modernized" fell through because it's a vague buzzword that V5's designers never really defined for themselves to use as a guidepost for design decisions. It uses a bunch of things that are popular in modern game design sure, but trying to modernize a compact car doesn't mean you can just shove in stuff from ultramodern slick limos. One of my prime examples here are Loresheets. Awesome idea to bring to a lore heavy game like VtM, probably should have tossed WotG a shout out for ripping it from there so completely, but missed a major mark for a modern game: no build your own rules! V5 had ~4 pages to spare to this effort, if you even needed that much, and it would have been a wonderful way to make sure people that aren't good at homebrewing in the WoD's classically nebulous idea of balance would feel way more comfortable bringing in all sorts of stuff into the game.

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                  • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                    CTPhipps sometimes admits to things he doesn't like with V5. Admitedly he often doesn't write these things down in a way that would suggest he dislikes them, but he has, indeed, glossed over things he doesn't like about V5. There are more unreasonable people out there.
                    If people would like to know what I dislike about V5, I'm happy to share. It's just it's hard to discuss them because it's a bit like my critique of the first two Star Wars sequels. You can't discuss SPECIFICS because so many people hate the whole thing so getting into individual elements gets drowned out in the noise.

                    What I dislike about V5?

                    * Too many in-character fiction at the start of the book. This takes away from the above when we should have OOC text.
                    * Too many predator types that take away from other material we should be getting. What's missing?
                    * Resonance is silly and I don't see any real benefit to it unless they're trying to explain how vampires get power. Weirdly, it showed up in Dracula 2020 on Netflix.
                    * The lack of a concrete history at the start of the book. How did we get to point A to point Z? We should have a timeline from 2004 to 2018.
                    * The lack of a write-up of all 13 Clans (or 12 with the Ravnos confirmed extinct). There's no reason the Lasombra, Tzimisce, Hecata, and so on shouldn't have had a 2 page spread in the main book.
                    * The lack of a write-up of the Sabbat in the main book as antagonists and giving an update to them as fans. It didn't have to be a very long write-up but should give a sense of what the current state of the Black Hand is.
                    * No real description of how many Elders were taken by the Beckoning versus how many weren't. 1/3rd? Half? 1/10th?
                    * Antagonist write-ups for the Second Inqusition that give a sense of what they are and what they're doing as well as influence. So much was badly defined that wasn't clarified until both THE CAMARILLA and THE FALL OF LONDON. I like the idea but it wasn't very well detailed.
                    * The rules system not stating that Elders can buy Disciplines over 6 with a higher Blood Potency than 6. We need optional rules for that as you can't do Ur-Shulgi if Ur-Shulgi doesn't have a Blood Sorcery over 5. Even just explaining Super-Combo disciplines would make more sense.
                    * No canonical statement about what the Kuei-Jin have been retconned into being.
                    * I feel the new Humanity system is overly forgiving and basically turns it from Paths and Humanity to being "Do whatever you feel like doing and you'll be fine if your convictions match."
                    * Loresheets are confusingly designed and not quite Backgrounds or Merits.
                    * The photo art wasn't my cup of tea.

                    But for realsies; Is there a single thing V5 does better than V20?
                    Mood, metaplot, internationalism, updating the Ashirra, advancing the timeline, dealing with changes in technology [Anarchs Unbound: We haven't been found because of MAGIC!], horror, Anarchs, and treatment of mortal hunters.

                    I like V20 but its lack of metaplot, change, and treatment of humans always bothered me. Hunters Hunted II has a serious flaw in that all of the stuff from Project: Twilight has fallen to pieces.

                    Mind u, I love V20 and love the creators of it. They're mostly the same as V5's.


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • I too much prefer v5 over v20. Rpg ideas have developed a ton since the 90s and v20 is just a glossed over update on really broken rules. The v5 focus on street level games was a good idea.

                      I wish we had better elder rules, a more robust combat system and more coherent humanity rules, but really I havnt been this excited about vampire in a decade.

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                      • V20 was never meant to be a major rules update.

                        Though the idea that you can't do street level play with it always kinda baffles me.

                        Of course, my excitement for V5 isn't just how well it racks up to V20, but how well it racks up to all the other vampires (or general play-the-monsters) games that have come out. We all know V20 didn't really do much to improve the rules from Revised, and VtM needed a major rules update. There's more competition for my RP time than old VtM.

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                        • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                          You are playing a RELUCTANT monster. If you don't hate what you are, you've failed to grasp vampire as those who embrace their evil aren't characters. They're NPCs.
                          On that logic, many iconic vampire characters from different source material could not be player characters. Lestat (and half the books' crew) couldn't. Spike couldn't. Adam and Eve couldn't.

                          For me, this is a quite narrow view of "what Vtm should be" and "how it should be played". Yes, it's one of the core themes and playstyles, but it's wrong, in my eyes, to restrict the game to it. Sorry, but it's just onetruewayism.


                          Also, again, it goes back to the argument that simply being a vampire is evil or not on itself? Say you are a vampire. You found meaningfull goals to fill the nights, take care with your feeding, avoid trouble. You still can't make peace with yourself and your existence and situation, not ever, you must hate yourself, or you're a monster and not player character material. Respectfully, I refuse this view.




                          If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                          • Originally posted by PMárk View Post

                            On that logic, many iconic vampire characters from different source material could not be player characters. Lestat (and half the books' crew) couldn't. Spike couldn't. Adam and Eve couldn't.
                            Lestat actually became a PC only when Anne Rice rewrote his character to be a guy who wasn't a complete scumbag. Spike also went through a redemption arc.

                            Adam and Eve aren't vampires to my knowledge.


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                            • I wonder how much time it would have taken to finish volume five before release. I think Elder powers are very important to becoming a thousands of year old vampire but all the level 6 plus powers should have been rebalanced, not a small undertaking, I could list so many examples of powers too strong or too weak. I know they wanted to get source books out but they should have waited until they could actually make elder characters that were powerhouses of old, or said they were gone for now due to the beckoning. I feel like the game painted itself into a corner.

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                              • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                                Adam and Eve aren't vampires to my knowledge.
                                Though the notion of Adam living past 900 years makes a lot more sense in that context.

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