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Handing v5 to modiphius was a mistake.

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  • #46
    I like to see my period pieces accurate but written from perspective that isn't so infected by the period piece (Unless you've got some diagetic perspective) 90's hair worked, 90's Ravnos didn't.

    I really, really do think the current games offer caricatures of minorities (and white women, oh the empowerment it gives to white women at the expense of others). I feel like some of the stuff is written so bad I wonder if it's a parody. V5 has this social justice caricature thng going on that I don't think does any favours for social justice, in fact I think it makes social justice look embarrassing to be next to at times. In Partisan times it'd be really good to look at both perspectives evenly; there's actually a lot extremes can agree with.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Murder-of-Crows View Post
      I think that's the one thing we won't see. I think OPP had an additional reason for developing the Storypath system besides the "system requirements" for powering cinematic games. It's based in the Storyteller, and Storytelling system as well as the system originally powering Aeon Trinity and Exalted. But the Storypath system is its own game used on gamelines that belong to OPP exclusively. Both the Storyteller and the Storytelling system are tied up with properties that are licenses from another company. So presumably, any work that Onyx Path does with the World of Darkness or Chronicles of Darkness belongs with the license. I know that you cannot copyright game mechanics, but I think it's a lot easier for OPP to have it's own separate game system that is adjacent to Storyteller/Storytelling. Basically the same reason, why Paizo did Pathfinder as rules-adjacent to D&D 3.5. Storypath is still familiar enough to players used to Storytelling/Storyteller, but still it's own system with its own tweaks to rolling a handful of 10-sided dice. Mixing it up again with the Vampire IP would defeat the purpose of having designed Storypath in the first place.

      So, Storypath meets a lot of requirements: it's a much needed innovation on an existing game system that has become dated, it's designed to power games like Aeon Trinity, Scion, and They came from Beneath the Sea, and last but not least, it's a separate system from the ones that are "just" licensed.

      Although, I totally think that Storypath could be a way of powering Vampire. It's still the same system family.
      I can't fault your logic or analyses re- the various reasons why Vampire powered by Storypath will probably never happen. But I'll be damned if I don't continue thinking it would be an excellent system for powering WoD games while preserving that Rev-20th Ann. feel.


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      • #48
        Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
        90's Ravnos didn't.
        I love the Ravnos, but the concept definitely would have aged (much) better if it hadn't been based on racist stereotypes. A clan of wondering/nomadic/vagabond vampires would have been fine. Plenty to mine just there.


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        • #49
          Originally posted by CaptOtter View Post
          I love the Ravnos, but the concept definitely would have aged (much) better if it hadn't been based on racist stereotypes. A clan of wondering/nomadic/vagabond vampires would have been fine. Plenty to mine just there.

          Totally agree.

          And my love for otters is unrelated.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Acopiltaczet View Post
            ,one of the writers forgot the rules of game.
            To be fair, that's something that happened with the old White Wolf as well.



            Freelance Writer and Storyteller's Vault contributor. Find my work here: http://www.storytellersvault.com/ind...liate_id=17903

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            • #51
              Originally posted by CaptOtter View Post
              With Vampire, if someone was like "I used to play V:tM during Second Edition and I really dug it!" you probably would not recommend V5 out of hand--I mean, you might ultimately recommend it, but you'd probably have to ask, "well... what about V:tM did you like when you played?" first just to make sure you'd not better off directing them to V20. I will submit to you that of the Top 5 "Family Feud"-style survey says... responses to the question of "what did you like about V:tM when you played", at a minimum 2 of those responses will be totally incompatible with what V5 has to offer. They made an entirely different game about vampires and tried to sort of make it work with the IP they bought off White Wolf.
              So I wandered over from my regular forum pretty much to ask this.

              I played a lot of VtM:Revised and kickstarted V20 on day 1. Haven't picked up V5 as my regular group isn't interested.

              Why might I not like it?


              Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                So I wandered over from my regular forum pretty much to ask this.

                I played a lot of VtM:Revised and kickstarted V20 on day 1. Haven't picked up V5 as my regular group isn't interested.

                Why might I not like it?
                There's a broken base over the Second Inquisition, collapse of the Sabbat, rise of the Anarchs, and Beckoning.


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                  So I wandered over from my regular forum pretty much to ask this.

                  I played a lot of VtM:Revised and kickstarted V20 on day 1. Haven't picked up V5 as my regular group isn't interested.

                  Why might I not like it?

                  - There's a lot of story where you think "Hold on, that's kinda dumb' and some story where you think 'That's extremely stupid, how dare they?!' The writers have 'subverted expectations' to be sure. Actually a lot of the dynamics have been flipped on their head; The nebulous scary force you don't know about isn't the big scary more-monsterous Sabbat, it's human hunters and the government; The default is no longer deft maneuvering within the Camarilla, but rather fighting with the Anarchs for Truth, Justice and the American way. The Tremere who were the pyramid are now pavement. It feels like a lot of characters have been hit with an idiot stick and the writers have not been conservative with their own personal wish fulfillment.
                  - The mechanics are more abstract and often more arbitrary. Blood is no longer units, but rather 'hunger' (credit where it's due; The humanity tracking might be better than just 'roll conscience', but the system doesn't seem like it'd take paths too well) Also, I feel like powers have become less like the magical abilities of a vampire and more like something gamey. The writers are happy to ignore established metaphysics for their own 'cool' ideas.
                  -Character creation's a nightmare. The book is not laid out well.
                  - The book's attempts to tackle issues and be progressive are more often counterproductive than not: Preachy, disingenuous, Ignorant, conceited and self-parody are words and phrases which come to mind.
                  -The content available in the corebook is rather lackluster compared to all the editions after 1st.
                  Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 12-02-2019, 09:35 AM.

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                  • #54
                    When there's a good new (or copied from another game) idea in V5, there's virtually always a problem in execution. While what really counts as "new" is up to interpretation, this is an major stumbling block. How well you react to V5 if you played previous VtM editions, is frequently whether the potential of these new thing outweighs the time needed to invest in making them work for you rather than following how it was written; which as a WoD game is further troubled for setting issues because there will be metaplot built off those new setting elements to deal with too.

                    Fixing VtM issues without strictly new tools instead tends to end up one-step forward and two-steps back. The attempt to have humans matter more to play through mechanics like Touchstones, Relationship maps, and You Are What You Eat, tends to turn humans into resources that are just more complicated blood bags and apply to more than your blood pool. Instead of, "I go out and snack on a few people to top up my vitae," you get, "I go out and snack on a few people to reduce my Hunger and manage my Blood Resonance." Hunger dice help make hunger more important to play, but doesn't actually incentivize players to want to engage with the mechanics; it's just random instead of a pool of points. Instead of actually giving players a reason to limit rolling in general, and making Hunger more dramatic (even something like cribbing more from Mage where the ST gets to save up badness and unleash it when it would make sense), the current rules just encourage you to roll as little as possible to make sure the constant low level threat of Hunger messing with you doesn't crop up too much.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                      - There's a lot of story where you think "Hold on, that's kinda dumb' and some story where you think 'That's extremely stupid, how dare they?!' The writers have 'subverted expectations' to be sure. Actually a lot of the dynamics have been flipped on their head; The nebulous scary force you don't know about isn't the big scary more-monsterous Sabbat, it's hunters and the government; The default is no longer deft maneuvering within the Camarilla, but rather fighting with the anarchs for truth, justice and the american way. The Tremere who were the pyramid are now pavement. It feels like a lot of characters have been hit with an idiot stick and the writers have not been conservative with their own personal wish fulfillment.
                      It's like that except replace kinda dumb with great.

                      Anarchs 4 Ever.

                      Lots of fixes that take advantage of the War on Terror.

                      The Tremere are also a much more complicated political landscape.

                      Awesome stuff all round.

                      Last edited by CTPhipps; 12-01-2019, 10:11 PM.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • #56
                        Random question

                        Is it true that the guy who wrote Anarchs was arrested for breaking into a government research lab for real?


                        It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done... Sidney Carton’s last line before he goes to the guillotine to save Lucie

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                          So I wandered over from my regular forum pretty much to ask this.

                          I played a lot of VtM:Revised and kickstarted V20 on day 1. Haven't picked up V5 as my regular group isn't interested.

                          Why might I not like it?
                          Humans are treated as point of frightening effectiveness vs something that can be casually crushed unless they have "special Powers"

                          KIndred Society is in a fundimental transition not seen since the intial Anarch Rebellion, while some of the names are the same the Anarchs and Cam have changed signficantly, as have some of the clans.

                          Not all the clans have been converted, weird bloodlines are even further off.

                          Many of Rare discplines have been combined with more common ones to make it so there are fewer discplines out there. For example Serpentis and Protean.

                          Much Less Blood Magic.

                          The Camarilla somehow rejects major technologies but retains its position while engaging with the Anarchs(this is probably the one issue I have... I'm tired of Vampires who can't adapt)

                          We only have 3 maybe 4 books. Very little of the line is covered and unlike say Revised or V20 since there's been MASSIVE change in the Vampire culture one can't just look back to older books to try and fill in the gaps. And some of these changes seem to have removed some of the older concepts completely.(Like Assamite castes being anything but political)

                          The Sabbat seems to be out of the picture for now.

                          complete reworking of how morality works with customization at the table.

                          The Tremere are a Clan and not functionally the Camarilla Ministry of Magic.

                          IF you are into comics imagine Vampire went through one of those BIG EVENTS that changes everything like Crisis or Secret wars. Everything has been moved around and is just subtly different...

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                            So I wandered over from my regular forum pretty much to ask this.

                            I played a lot of VtM:Revised and kickstarted V20 on day 1. Haven't picked up V5 as my regular group isn't interested.

                            Why might I not like it?
                            YMMV on all the reasons you might like or dislike V5. Keep that in mind going forward. But there are some trends in many people's issues.

                            Mechanically, V5 seems as far removed from VtM1e to V20 as VtR is to VtM1e to V20. From first edition onward through V20, while the rules may change, they're tweeks to what came before more than a whole new set of rules. V5 feels more than that; it feels, to me, like an entirely different game. From the new hunger mechanics to how disciplines are handled.

                            And then there's the story. Oh, the story.

                            So remember how V20 was metaplot agnostic, and while VtM1e and 2e had the metaplot, it advanced very slowly, mostly locally, and not even much of that beyond Chicago? And how with Revised, we really saw the status quo changing with every third new book release? V5 points and laughs at all that.

                            You wanna play the Sabbat? Nah, they ran off to the middle east dude!! We only got Anarchs and Camarilla now, y'all!!

                            Remember the whole being the underdog in your city because you're a newbie and everyone else was a level capped, gear capped, skill capped elder? Nah, those guys ran off to the middle east too dude, because Beckoning! It's all newbies up here!! Some might be twinked out, some might have bought their character off eBay, but everyone's close to equal now and you're gonna be prince of London!!! (total admitted exaggeration on my part here, not gonna lie)

                            But what's that you say? Isn't there already a well-established hierarchy running London? Nah dude, we got Second Inquisition going on up in here!! Think like if every hunter group ever published before ignored their own flavor text describing them as paranoid, got in a friendship circle, hugged out their issues, and teamed up to stake vamps and chew bubble gum!! But chewing bubble's now a metaphor for drone striking your haven, and they never run out of drone striking bubble gum!! We're in the Gehenna Wars baby, and you can never "chew enough bubble gum" in the Gehenna Wars!!

                            Wait, what's the Gehenna Wars? Oh, it's what's going on in the middle east!! You want more specifics? Well, uhh, you see...

                            Oh, hey, yo, Assamites? They in the Camarilla too, and they rebranded as the Banu Haqim!! Followers of Set joined the Anarchs and also rebranded to the Ministry!! Giovanni are now called the Hecata, and maybe merged with every bloodline that also had a death fetish!!

                            While I'm poking fun at those changes, some aren't necessarily terrible. Cutting out the Sabbat, much as I loved the Sabbat, does clean things up a bit. But this highlights the big issue I, and others, have with V5; implementation. Getting rid of the seemingly overwhelming number of elders clears the way for more plausible PC attempts to make moves for political positions now, but uses an absolutely handwave excuse to do so (yes, I've heard the arguments of why the Beckoning make sense). Same with the Sabbat. Apparently all the every Antediluvian fell asleep in the middle east, even the ones who we knew left there ([Tzimisce] for instance)? So everyone ran off to the middle east and did... Fuck all? Wrecked the entire region? Had a conga line? Who knows. We know what caused them all to run off, but nothing about what happened once they got there. Personally, I imagine they're all just kind of standing around, talking about how stupid they are for gathering up in the same geographical region. In my headcanon, [Toreador] secretly used Presence 10 to bring everyone there for the worlds biggest and bloodiest flash mob but when everyone got there, [Toreador] got distracted by the internet. It was looking up what "livestream" and "going viral" meant (they were pretty sure the former involved rivers of blood feeding vampires, and the latter was just a name for using Vicissitude in any way or form), found cat videos, and that's been the status quo ever since.

                            Again, YMMV with V5. I think it's clear here that I'm not a fan, but I don't begrudge people who are. Every edition has something that requires you to ignore the bad implementation of a good idea in some form. With V5 it's maybe more pronounced than before, but then again so is the internet. We're much better able to get together to pick apart the newest edition of a game, point out the narrative flaws or implications, bandwagon against the new thing, and what have you.

                            So yeah.

                            EDIT:

                            Oh yeah, as someone mentioned above, the Camarilla still can't interwebs but the Anarchs are all about the interwebs now. I'm pretty sure that makes one of the sects the hipster vampires, but IDFK which.
                            Last edited by Vysha; 12-02-2019, 04:04 AM.


                            Writing up Clanbook: Aabbt

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                            • #59
                              Given there was only a badly regarded supplement for London in the Victorian Era, why is everyone upset about it being destroyed?


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                              • #60
                                As I said in a previous post the V5 Corebook kind of reads like it supposed to be to Masquerade what Masquerade is to Dark Age.

                                A new edition of Vampire that is set up in the same WoD as Dark Age and Masquerade and takes place after the Masquerade shattered at the end of VTM.

                                But then the Camarilla book especially rolled back a lot of the changes from the Corebook at least setting wise. Some mechanical reversion are expected later on with the Player Guide.

                                So now it's kind of a mess really.

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