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Handing v5 to modiphius was a mistake.

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  • #91
    The only vaguely meaningful exploration of ab ovo evil Vampires is the Sabbat, if you take their attitude as "I'll show you the monster you think I am".
    However, despite assertions to the contrary, the Sabbat are a much more complex organisation than "the Evil Ones"*; _and_ their "Evil Ones" moniker can exist if and only if there is another group that asserts that Vampires are not evil creatures who's every action is evil (eg, the Camarilla).

    The whole metaphysical and moral exploration that lies at the hart of Vampire psychodrama rests on vampires NOT being capital Evil by default, rather it rests on them having to do monstrous things to survive.

    *Heck, even the designated "Evil Ones" of the world, the Baali have been recast as more complex, where at least some of their number seek to keep the demons slumbering, comitting the lesser evil of sacrificing souls to stop the greater Evil of the End of the World. V:tM is decidedly not about Evil and Good.
    Last edited by Herbert_West; 12-05-2019, 09:23 AM.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Herbert_West View Post
      The only vaguely meaningful exploration of ab ovo evil Vampires is the Sabbat,
      I dunno, I feel that actively trying not to be evil is a meaningful exploration, especially when it is fundamentally impossible.

      I see the central paradox is vampire sare at their most interesting when they want something that they cannot have but struggle to anyway.

      I agree the Sabbat are much smarter than they appear. Montreal by Night remains my favorite of their books.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

        I dunno, I feel that actively trying not to be evil is a meaningful exploration, especially when it is fundamentally impossible.

        I see the central paradox is vampire sare at their most interesting when they want something that they cannot have but struggle to anyway.

        I agree the Sabbat are much smarter than they appear. Montreal by Night remains my favorite of their books.

        You keep confusing Evil and Bad.

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        • #94
          The Sabbat is indeed not always evil. (Altough most of them are).

          They are all Monsters tough. They are what Vampires become when they renounce their Humanity and embrace the Beast in them.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by Morbus View Post


            Maybe you will. Maybe you won't.

            And as per 1E Golconda is actually an achievable goal.

            So what's your point really? That Vampires are all doomed to become Monsters? 1E does not supports that statement.
            The whole concept of Golconda was frankly stupid. Jesus Christ couldn't achieve Humanity 10. It's practically impossible to achieve if played by the rules. I'm convinced it was thrown in to appease people who want to play the way you seem to want to.

            Look, you can play Vampire as superheroes with fangs. It's your prerogative. But it blatantly obvious that the entire point of the game is to play a monster. That you want to ignore that and play Twilight doesn't change that. So stop with the condescending tone, and accept that your opinion is just that, an opinion.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Illuminostro View Post

              The whole concept of Golconda was frankly stupid. Jesus Christ couldn't achieve Humanity 10. It's practically impossible to achieve if played by the rules. I'm convinced it was thrown in to appease people who want to play the way you seem to want to.
              Golconda kind of wraps the whole thing together. If you don't have a way to be redeemed then there's no point in damnation.

              Mind you, I think you're not wrong but you're also not right.

              You are playing a RELUCTANT monster. If you don't hate what you are, you've failed to grasp vampire as those who embrace their evil aren't characters. They're NPCs.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                Golconda kind of wraps the whole thing together. If you don't have a way to be redeemed then there's no point in damnation.

                Mind you, I think you're not wrong but you're also not right.

                You are playing a RELUCTANT monster. If you don't hate what you are, you've failed to grasp vampire as those who embrace their evil aren't characters. They're NPCs.
                The game is rigged in that you WILL eventually kill someone you may not want to kill in a frenzy.

                A newly made 13th gen vampire with no support system/herd will have to hunt at least every other night to alleviate the danger of entering a hunger frenzy, as you can only take 1/4 of a person's blood supply without putting them in the hospital (2.5 points.) Unless you have Presence or Dominate, not every hunt will be successful.

                Granted, this is only relevant if you play the game seriously, and try to use real life logic in regards to logistical and practical problems. Anyone is free to run the game as City of Vamoire Heroes, where everyone starts the night at full 10 blood as granted. And there's nithing wrong with that.

                But let's not pretend that this game isn't about living corpses that exist to drink blood and occasionally go into pyschotic rages they cant control that ends up with people being dead. Yes, even the perfect Humanity 10 undead saint will eventually lose it. ALL vampires are monsters. Some just try not to be.

                So, I'm in agreement, mostly.

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by Illuminostro View Post

                  The game is rigged in that you WILL eventually kill someone you may not want to kill in a frenzy.

                  A newly made 13th gen vampire with no support system/herd will have to hunt at least every other night to alleviate the danger of entering a hunger frenzy, as you can only take 1/4 of a person's blood supply without putting them in the hospital (2.5 points.) Unless you have Presence or Dominate, not every hunt will be successful.

                  Granted, this is only relevant if you play the game seriously, and try to use real life logic in regards to logistical and practical problems. Anyone is free to run the game as City of Vamoire Heroes, where everyone starts the night at full 10 blood as granted. And there's nithing wrong with that.

                  But let's not pretend that this game isn't about living corpses that exist to drink blood and occasionally go into pyschotic rages they cant control that ends up with people being dead. Yes, even the perfect Humanity 10 undead saint will eventually lose it. ALL vampires are monsters. Some just try not to be.

                  So, I'm in agreement, mostly.
                  Yes, if you don't have a vampire who has ever killed someone then I think you're kind of missing the appeal a bit. You have the psychotic murder monster inside you and if you never fall prey to it then I feel like it doesn't really have much in the way of edge. It's a threat that poses no real threat unless it wins the occassional round.

                  That being said, I also think that Humanity 10 is something that is possible (especially under V5 rules) if you're playing that sort of game. Usually, this would be an NPC like the vampire who lives off a cult he heals with his powers and exchanges blood for favors while living in a cave. Thin Bloods and High Generation Vegetarian vampires (mostly the former). The Ventrue Doctor who has a Feeding Restriction that makes him incapable of feeding on human blood.

                  They should be as rare as roc's teeth but add a potential layer to the story. People who will fall off the Wagon like a recovering addict, do something horrible, or get murdered by other vampires because they're dragging the others down with their moralizing. I think that whether they should be in YOUR game a matter of tone, though. Something like LA BY NIGHT's webseries or the SEATTLE BY NIGHT games have a lot more humorous and less dark attitude than, say, a game where it's a Tarantino film with fangs and there's no such thing as a "good" vampire or even antihero.

                  I also make it so Golconda is real in my games and something that some vampires have achieved. It's something that usually means you have to leave vampire society for becfause it's corrupt as hell but it's real enough. I generally prefer the Cults of Osiris, though, because a bunch of vampires in a temple trying to live off blood while watching each other feels more useful game wise.

                  Generally, though, the only consistently high humanity vampires in my games are the Thin Bloods because, well, they're not really vampires. They're humans with fangs--which is a unique RPG opportunity by itself.
                  Last edited by CTPhipps; 01-16-2020, 07:42 PM.


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Acopiltaczet View Post
                    All of Modiphiu's v5 books are late. They don't do previews. In their Fall of London stream,one of the writers forgot the rules of game.
                    White wolf should keep doing it internally or handing it over to opp,only those two truly know the World of Darkness.
                    OPP writers also forget rules during live events...


                    It is a time for great deeds!

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                    • Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post

                      OPP writers also forget rules during live events...
                      Lol. Elaborate please?
                      English is not my first lenguage so I cannot follow those live events.

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                      • Originally posted by blailton View Post

                        Lol. Elaborate please?
                        English is not my first lenguage so I cannot follow those live events.
                        For instance walking to Arcadia interviewed two Authors for the Changeling Freeholds book that came out, they asked questions about unclear rulings and one of the Authors/developers said they were not sure and crunch and rules wasn’t their strong suite and Mage was also their main game. They were pretty solif questions too but it was a big I don’t know I’m not sure when a contradictory ruling was published. I mean the freehold book was specifically about Freeholds and you are writing and developing the definitive book on it while also admiring you have no idea how the rules should work...


                        Edit: walking to Arcadia is a podcast by the way. And later they mention elsewhere the writer’s mistakes are understandable and when you take into account they make only freelance salaries. But it was still a peek behind the curtain.
                        Last edited by Eldagusto; 01-17-2020, 08:18 AM.


                        It is a time for great deeds!

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                        • The OPP folks are human, and like the rest of us mess things up. Even about stuff they wrote during live demonstrations of their work.

                          Or basically what all of us do sometimes, but more noticeable because of who's doing it. Trying to single out Modiphius over it is silly.

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                          • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                            The Ventrue Doctor who has a Feeding Restriction that makes him incapable of feeding on human blood.
                            Can't happen.


                            V5 is not VTM

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                            • Originally posted by Illuminostro View Post

                              The game is rigged in that you WILL eventually kill someone you may not want to kill in a frenzy.

                              A newly made 13th gen vampire with no support system/herd will have to hunt at least every other night to alleviate the danger of entering a hunger frenzy, as you can only take 1/4 of a person's blood supply without putting them in the hospital (2.5 points.) Unless you have Presence or Dominate, not every hunt will be successful.

                              Granted, this is only relevant if you play the game seriously, and try to use real life logic in regards to logistical and practical problems. Anyone is free to run the game as City of Vamoire Heroes, where everyone starts the night at full 10 blood as granted. And there's nithing wrong with that.

                              But let's not pretend that this game isn't about living corpses that exist to drink blood and occasionally go into pyschotic rages they cant control that ends up with people being dead. Yes, even the perfect Humanity 10 undead saint will eventually lose it. ALL vampires are monsters. Some just try not to be.

                              So, I'm in agreement, mostly.

                              I think I already made it clear that I am no big fan of V5 so I don't suscribe to its concept that Humanity can only be a spiral down and where it shows that the only reason they even made an option in that game to recover Humanity is its association with V:TM but they made sure to make it basically impossible anyway since it detracts from the theme of that specific game.

                              No in V:TM, sinning does not mean that you are beyond redemption. That would go against the theme since the curse is one imposed by God upon Caine and since all Abrahamic religions agrees that redemption is always possible no matter how far you're gone that would be counter-intuitive.

                              So yes the fact that you committed crimes does not mean you are too far gone. Mind you, your PC might not know that fact and this may even be the perfect excuse for them to accept the Beast in them and stop seeking salvation.

                              Mind you it does says in the books that Humanity 8+ vampires are insufferable for the rest of their kin due to self-righteousness. My own head-cannon adds that many vampire hates humane vampires because they remind them of how rotten they became, compromising so much of their souls in the name of "reason" and "survival".
                              So I kind of find it funny that you compare high Humanity vampire with superheros. That's definetly what a low humanity vampires would say. Certainly say a lot about them when simply refusing to assault people and trying to act compassionately makes you a "hero".

                              In any case as far as I am concerned, Golconda is not a goal that should be pursued (seriously) by Neonates. It's more of an Elder goal. After a vampire has matured enough that mere survival is no longer their night to night main concern and when after (un)living more than a human lifetime when it is time for the kindred to seriously ponder about its nature and what awaits after the end.

                              And again. Trying to act humane and even looking for Golconda DOES NOT mean you are successful at it. the WoD is a horrible place, were the bad choice will -always- be the easy way out.
                              In fact one of my favorite book is Lair of the Hidden where you have a bunch of Elder supposedly on Humanity and looking for Golconda yet fail so hard at being humane that you cannot not feel bad for them.
                              Because you know that each of them have the -Virtues- to succeed in their quest and yet they still choose the horrible choice -over- and -over- again. Just because it's the easier choice. Because it's the safer choice.

                              That for me encapsulate the true horror of falling Humanity in VTM.

                              It's not about being born into evil and slowly becoming even more evil because booooh monster.

                              It's about being cursed with a monstrous beast that constantly tempts you into evil, thrown into a tyrannic society that seek to break you to fit their horrific molds. And fall, over and over. Not because you were destined to, but because you could not muster the moral fortitude to break the cycle.

                              Or if you did, it was only a fleeting moment before you are thrown again in the spiral. A bitter reminder of your constant failures. Of what could have been.
                              And who knows perhaps one day you may find someone that succeeded where you failed so hard. I expect an epic frenzy to happen that night.
                              Last edited by Morbus; 01-18-2020, 02:15 PM.

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                              • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                                Can't happen.
                                Yes, it's called, "Feeding Restriction: Animals" or since it's Ventrue, probably, "Sheetland Ponies that I raised myself."


                                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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