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  • Originally posted by Morbus View Post


    I think I already made it clear that I am no big fan of V5 so I don't suscribe to its concept that Humanity can only be a spiral down and where it shows that the only reason they even made an option in that game to recover Humanity is its association with V:TM but they made sure to make it basically impossible anyway since it detracts from the theme of that specific game.
    I thought we were all in agreement that V5 is far too easy on Humanity. It's easily the most forgiving, most permissive, and easily recoverable Humanity system.

    * Touchstones
    * Convictions
    * Stains
    * Chroncile Convictions

    It is RIDICULOUSLY hard to lose Humanity in this game. Very easy to get it back.

    I mean, that's something we're all aware of. The old restrictions are almost all gone.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

      I thought we were all in agreement that V5 is far too easy on Humanity. It's easily the most forgiving, most permissive, and easily recoverable Humanity system.

      * Touchstones
      * Convictions
      * Stains
      * Chroncile Convictions

      It is RIDICULOUSLY hard to lose Humanity in this game. Very easy to get it back.

      I mean, that's something we're all aware of. The old restrictions are almost all gone.
      Actually it is quite significantly harder to regain humanity than previous editions. Previously you just spent the requisite XP, now to quote from the book "Increasing Humanity should be a major personal story arc, involving (at least) the gaining of a new Touchstone and the deliberate turning away from Kindred society and power."

      I'm not saying I dislike that, quite the contrary, but it would be inaccurate to say it's easier to regain.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

        I thought we were all in agreement that V5 is far too easy on Humanity. It's easily the most forgiving, most permissive, and easily recoverable Humanity system.

        * Touchstones
        * Convictions
        * Stains
        * Chroncile Convictions

        It is RIDICULOUSLY hard to lose Humanity in this game. Very easy to get it back.

        I mean, that's something we're all aware of. The old restrictions are almost all gone.

        That's another problem. Yes in V5 Humanity has been made mostly irelevent with how Tenets and Convictions works so yes, those that actually wants to play "superheroes" will find that no other edition prior to V5 have made it so trivial to completely bypass the moral system provided that you're Tenets and Convictions match those of the Justice League or something akin to that.

        BUT that's clearly not how the writers envisioned that system was supposed to work. Just reading their intentions behind the mechanics clearly show this.

        I am no fan of customising Humanity to your liking either. It's the "path of what I wanted to do anyway" on whole new level.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

          Yes, it's called, "Feeding Restriction: Animals" or since it's Ventrue, probably, "Sheetland Ponies that I raised myself."

          Could you post source for this? Because I have never seen any Ventrue characters whose feed restriction was about animals, and the phrasing of their curse makes quite clear that animals can't be their chosen prey.


          V20

          Weaknesses: The Ventrue have rarified tastes, and
          they find only one specific type of mortal blood palatable
          and vital for them. When a player creates a Ventrue
          character, he should decide with the Storyteller
          what specific type of blood suits the character, and this
          choice is permanent. Blood of other types (even animals)
          simply offers the vampire no blood pool increase,

          no matter how much he consumes — he simply vomits
          it back up. This refined palate may be very narrow or
          very broad — say, the blood of younger sisters, or the
          blood of nude children. Vampiric blood is exempt from
          this restriction.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Morbus View Post
            That's another problem. Yes in V5 Humanity has been made mostly irelevent with how Tenets and Convictions works so yes, those that actually wants to play "superheroes" will find that no other edition prior to V5 have made it so trivial to completely bypass the moral system provided that you're Tenets and Convictions match those of the Justice League or something akin to that.

            BUT that's clearly not how the writers envisioned that system was supposed to work. Just reading their intentions behind the mechanics clearly show this.

            I am no fan of customising Humanity to your liking either. It's the "path of what I wanted to do anyway" on whole new level.
            The way I look at it is that it offers the choice of how you want to play, if your a group that prefers the more rigid way it was it can still be done, but if you want to play something darker you also have that option.
            Ultimately it can't replicate Humanity as it was previously though, so I get where your coming from.

            I would disagree Humanity is irrelevant though, rather it's as relevant as you want it to be, if fighting to maintain your Humanity is important then you can run the game with more emphasis on that, or relax it if you want to play a more action charged game.

            Comment


            • The big thing that makes Humanity easier to maintain in V5 is simple:

              You only roll once per session with a worst case roll of 1 die at difficulty 1.

              Pre-V5, degeneration checks were made per violation, and even at the best you had slightly 2/3s odds of success.

              Rolling more frequently, even with slightly better odds, pre-V5 vampires were much more likely to lose Humanity over the same set of actions. Touchstones and Convictions barely factor into this at all.

              Though as noted, pre-V5 regaining Humanity was also easier (though not cheap XP-wise). Having "gain a new Touchstone," as a narrative prerequisite (though there are other ways, they're hard for the player/character to purposefully come across) to it is a killer qualifier to try to hit. If you still have three Touchstones, you literally can't. If you lost of Touchstone in a fashion that the vampire believes was their fault (even just because the Touchstone was obviously a target of enemies in vampire politics), you can't replace them. The only way to get a new Touchstone is if you lose on in the least Humanity damaging ways.

              So, trying to discount table preference, V5 Humanity is harder to lose, but harder to regain at the same time. Touchstones are a huge double-edged sword here, because while they might help you avoid loss in the first place, they can be a huge impediment to regaining Humanity once it slips. While losing Humanity resulting in poorer normal social rolls with mortals is nothing new, it takes on an extra difficulty in V5 since it makes it that much harder to avoid Touchstone loss as you lose your ability to socialize with your Touchstones.

              On the net then, it's very hard to maintain the claim that V5 Humanity is less of a downward spiral, because while it makes it harder to start to slip, once you, it makes it harder to come back.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                The big thing that makes Humanity easier to maintain in V5 is simple:

                You only roll once per session with a worst case roll of 1 die at difficulty 1.

                Pre-V5, degeneration checks were made per violation, and even at the best you had slightly 2/3s odds of success.

                Rolling more frequently, even with slightly better odds, pre-V5 vampires were much more likely to lose Humanity over the same set of actions. Touchstones and Convictions barely factor into this at all.

                Though as noted, pre-V5 regaining Humanity was also easier (though not cheap XP-wise). Having "gain a new Touchstone," as a narrative prerequisite (though there are other ways, they're hard for the player/character to purposefully come across) to it is a killer qualifier to try to hit. If you still have three Touchstones, you literally can't. If you lost of Touchstone in a fashion that the vampire believes was their fault (even just because the Touchstone was obviously a target of enemies in vampire politics), you can't replace them. The only way to get a new Touchstone is if you lose on in the least Humanity damaging ways.

                So, trying to discount table preference, V5 Humanity is harder to lose, but harder to regain at the same time. Touchstones are a huge double-edged sword here, because while they might help you avoid loss in the first place, they can be a huge impediment to regaining Humanity once it slips. While losing Humanity resulting in poorer normal social rolls with mortals is nothing new, it takes on an extra difficulty in V5 since it makes it that much harder to avoid Touchstone loss as you lose your ability to socialize with your Touchstones.

                On the net then, it's very hard to maintain the claim that V5 Humanity is less of a downward spiral, because while it makes it harder to start to slip, once you, it makes it harder to come back.
                Yea to be fair if anything it's a steeper downward spiral. It most definitely is a point of preference as to how you prefer it to run. I can see the thematics behind it, though I'm not sure how I feel about it. Generally I find it to be a positive though, but it is likely down to my group's play styles.

                On reflection as I was writing this I think the current method resonates with me more than the old one did, but again each to their own in that regard.

                Comment


                • For me the most difficult thing about humanity is tenets. Those become pretty subjective. Watch la by night where the tenet is "kill no Innocents". This has pretty much resulted in no one getting humanity loss because anyone can be justified as not being innocent. Unless your gm is incredibly strict I just see humanity as being a mostly non issue.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by RadioFreeDeath View Post
                    For me the most difficult thing about humanity is tenets. Those become pretty subjective. Watch la by night where the tenet is "kill no Innocents". This has pretty much resulted in no one getting humanity loss because anyone can be justified as not being innocent. Unless your gm is incredibly strict I just see humanity as being a mostly non issue.
                    That's pretty much what I meant. Humanity loss is now something that requires you to be objectively evil, which is a slower spiral.

                    You have to choose to kill Chunk the Security Guard.


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by RadioFreeDeath View Post
                      For me the most difficult thing about humanity is tenets. Those become pretty subjective. Watch la by night where the tenet is "kill no Innocents". This has pretty much resulted in no one getting humanity loss because anyone can be justified as not being innocent. Unless your gm is incredibly strict I just see humanity as being a mostly non issue.
                      Again this comes down to what you determine as a group to be your focus, if you want to be strict on it then you can do so, it gives the flexibility to make it more or less of an issue as fits the playstyle. I think it also encourages groups to be more active in how their morality works, and makes the GM more of a final Arbiter than the sole word of law. Though again this may come down to a preference and style of a group, there's a simplicity to having the definitions dictated that I do enjoy with the older Humanity.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                        That's pretty much what I meant. Humanity loss is now something that requires you to be objectively evil, which is a slower spiral.

                        You have to choose to kill Chunk the Security Guard.
                        Not necessarily, the idea of evil should be determined by the group beforehand or during play, although the book has certain preconceptions about what that should be I don't take that as gospel.

                        In the instance of poor old Chuck, if he's an innocent and you have a Tennet about killing the innocent then you can gain a stain if you kill him by choice or through frenzy. It's less being evil and more about control in the latter example, in the first example if it's a Conviction you are acting against your own morality, in the instance it's a Chronicle Tennet then it is violating the law of your society.

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                        • That the Group determines the speed of the downward spiral seems no different to me than them determining how often they game. its a matter of how much and quickly the engage in the setting. That is it.

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                          • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                            Humanity loss is now something that requires you to be objectively evil, which is a slower spiral.
                            I'd argue the other way around.

                            Pre-V5, however much the way Humanity sins are constructed has it's issues, violations of it are the more objectively evil thing. You can't accidentally steal, assault, or murder. You might be able to argue - as a player - on some of the grey areas (killing a human can fall under a few levels depending on circumstance) of what level a sin something might be, but it never stops being a sin (even if your character stops caring).

                            In V5, Chronicle Tenets are as objective or subjective as the group sets and enforces them. I can make Chronicle Tenets where vampires are doomed to fast spiral very easily, and nothing in them is objectively evil.

                            For example:

                            Tortured Vampires

                            "Don't engage in any activity that reminds you that you're a vampire."
                            "Never allow the Masquerade to be violated."
                            "Always be completely truthful to those your care about."

                            Play under this? And watch Humanity be impossible to uphold for any decent amount of time. Each of these is exceedingly difficult to avoid or hand-wave away (though a lot of them would be countered with the right Convictions because you'd be incurred dozens of 1 Stain violations instead of being forced into 2-3 Stain ones as frequently). Worse they're all in conflict with each other. You can't avoid reminders your a vampire while you're out enforcing the Masquerade. You can't be truthful to your Touchstones without violating the Masquerade. Etc. And none of these are acts of evil.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

                              I'd argue the other way around.

                              Pre-V5, however much the way Humanity sins are constructed has it's issues, violations of it are the more objectively evil thing. You can't accidentally steal, assault, or murder. You might be able to argue - as a player - on some of the grey areas (killing a human can fall under a few levels depending on circumstance) of what level a sin something might be, but it never stops being a sin (even if your character stops caring).

                              In V5, Chronicle Tenets are as objective or subjective as the group sets and enforces them. I can make Chronicle Tenets where vampires are doomed to fast spiral very easily, and nothing in them is objectively evil.

                              For example:

                              Tortured Vampires

                              "Don't engage in any activity that reminds you that you're a vampire."
                              "Never allow the Masquerade to be violated."
                              "Always be completely truthful to those your care about."

                              Play under this? And watch Humanity be impossible to uphold for any decent amount of time. Each of these is exceedingly difficult to avoid or hand-wave away (though a lot of them would be countered with the right Convictions because you'd be incurred dozens of 1 Stain violations instead of being forced into 2-3 Stain ones as frequently). Worse they're all in conflict with each other. You can't avoid reminders your a vampire while you're out enforcing the Masquerade. You can't be truthful to your Touchstones without violating the Masquerade. Etc. And none of these are acts of evil.
                              I'd strongly disagree. You had things like "Stealing" as a Humanity 7 Violation and then you had killing people, which in any sort of action game will happen A LOT as a level 1 violation.

                              The Tenants for Humanity in most games meant that most vampires would rapidly degenerate to 5 or 6 even if they were being extremely good guy vampires.

                              I think the Convictions and Chronicle Convictions are much more forgiving, especially with Stains meaning that your Humanity score is effectively trippled.

                              You have to have multiple stains and not just an immediate drop.

                              Hell, Son is a SERIAL KILLER and he's not Humanity 0 in V5.


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                                I'd strongly disagree. You had things like "Stealing" as a Humanity 7 Violation and then you had killing people, which in any sort of action game will happen A LOT as a level 1 violation.

                                The Tenants for Humanity in most games meant that most vampires would rapidly degenerate to 5 or 6 even if they were being extremely good guy vampires.

                                I think the Convictions and Chronicle Convictions are much more forgiving, especially with Stains meaning that your Humanity score is effectively trippled.

                                You have to have multiple stains and not just an immediate drop.

                                Hell, Son is a SERIAL KILLER and he's not Humanity 0 in V5.
                                Actually Murder was Humanity 3 Violation, casual thoughtless killing was 2.
                                While 7 was Theft, it was only things like accidental killing or intentional property damage that caused degeneration. If you were avoiding killing or stealing you could easily maintain Humanity 7. Generally if you wanted to play something more heinous or 'evil' then you would be on a Path that would allow it. This is where I draw a parallel in a fashion to Convictions and Tenants as they simulate changing your ideology, though it is still linked in some fashion to humanity rather than the Path's which were divorced from the Human condition in some fashion.

                                Really it all comes down to whether you prefer having a Hierarchy of pre-generated sins or a self determined morality. Both are equally valid but the latter can be open to going to extremes unless agreed upon by the group in advance.

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