Kuei-Jin vs Kindred?

[Rock113]

Well, a question may be asked for time to time.

We all know KotE is of the VtM. They use more similar system than other gamelines. So did anyone compare them in a more fair condition?

I mean, you distribute the same EXPs in similar traits to build same-level Kuei and Kindred, making a fair fight in a white room, who will win?

*The generation would better be the same, for example, Jina vs 8th gens, Madarin vs 7th gens, Ancestor vs 6th gens and Bodhisattva vs Meths. Disciplines (only of modern vision, so ignore Godbody in Blood and Silk)too: Black Wind vs Celebrity, Iron Mountain vs Potence and so on.

I don’t have much experience with this kind of crossovers. Somebody used to point out that Kuei Jin’s advanced disciplines are weaker than Kindred’s similar, same-level powers.

[adambeyoncelowe]

The level 6+ powers are a bit lacklustre but the lower levels are more beefy, generally. However, Wan Kuei have three Chi pools, each relatively small, so they can burn through those quite quickly in combat. If they run out of Yin Chi, say, then that makes all the Disciplines that rely on Yin Chi suddenly inaccessible.

Wan Kuei can step sideways, however, to escape dangerous foes and they can resist mental influence rather well with the P'o.

On balance, I'd say it's more likely to go to the Hungry Dead, but in a fight of attrition, the Cainite might get lucky.

[Rock113]

The level 6+ powers are a bit lacklustre but the lower levels are more beefy, generally.

Btw, you remind me one thing: Kuei Jin’s advanced powers themselves are really poorly designed.

1. No statted Bodhisattva (Although Devil Tiger book has some entries), or even guys having advanced disciplines. The mightiest statted ones are Dharma 7 with several Masterys and several 6+ traits.

2. Advanced powers are few mentioned. IIRC Disciplines are only in Companion( and they are bad, really), making them seem like archspheres. Rites are better, but only several. I don’t know others.

[Saga]

The possibilities in personal power for kueijin are have a greater scope than cainites. At basic levels I'd go for team kueijin, but on a methuselahs vs. bodhisattvas I'd say that methuselahs are superior (of course all of this in a general point of view, in certain particular cases this might not be applicable). The trait of having possibilities to travel and be aided by spirits from 3 different planes of existence (umbra, shadowlads and yomi/hell) is by far the most advantageous point for kueijin, even the basic ones.

We know a lot of methuselahs from Vampire the Masquerade but we have extremely little information compared to Kindred of the East and so is the same with their high level powers, which only appeared in KotE Companion.

In a fight, (old school) Helena vs. Thousand Crane Mother (FOUNDER of the Thrashing Dragon dharma), I'd say that Helena has 0 chance against her. But if Mithras faced Eight Thunders Sage (Devil-Tiger bodhisattva), now that is a more evenly fight. Gan Shuo (Bone Flower corrupted) vs. Ambrogino Giovanni would be a most interesting match.

- Saga

[Rock113]

I recall Ancestor, IIRC if you want to become a true one you must pass a very difficult rite. Canon has several Lv.7 Rites for this role（Welcoming the penangallan, etc.) . So maybe existing Bodhisattvas are more powerful than average Meths because they must pass this test first... I don’t know the title like Madarin or Ancestor are just addresses like Neonate, Ancilla OR social status...

And entries are in the page 36 of Devil Tiger book. If you look at the rank “Sagacious” you will find the stats are also very terrible...

EDIT:

Although Devil Tiger book has some entries.

And entries are in the page 36 of Devil Tiger book. If you look at the rank “Sagacious” you will find the stats are also very terrible...

Resource:

Talented (Minimum Dharma 6, Confers Status 5)
Alertness 5, Athletics 3, Brawl (or Martial Arts) 4, Computer 3, Ddge 4. Drive 2, Empathy 5, Eriquette 6, Expression 4, Finance 4, Frearms 3, Intimidation 6, Investigation 5,Law 4, Leadeship 4, Linguistics 5, Medicine 4, Melee 3, Occult 2, Performance 2, Politics 6, Rituals 3, Science 4, Sreetwise 2, Subtefuge 6, Srealh 4,Survival 3

Wise (Minimum Dharma 7, Confers Satus 6)
Alertnes 6, Athleics 3, Brawl (or Martial Arts) 4, Computer 4, Dodge 4, Drive 3, Enpathy 6, Eriquette 7, Expression 4, Finance 5, Frearms 3, Intimidation 7, Investigation 6, Law 5, Leadership 5, Linguistios 5, Medicine 4,Melee 4, Ocault 3, Performance 2, Politics 7, Rituals 4, Science 5,Stealth 5, Sreetwise 3, Subterfuge 7,Survival 4

Sagncious (Minimum Dharma 8, Confers Status 7)
Alertnes 6, Athletics 4, Beawl (or Martial Arts) 5, Computer 4, Dodge 4, Drive 3, Empathy 7, Etiquette 8, Expresion5, Finance 6, Frearms 3, Intimidation 8, Investigation 6, Law 5, Leadeship 6, Linguistis 5,Medicine 5, Melee 5, Occult 4, Performance 2, Politics 8, Riruals 5, Science 6, Sealth 6, Sreetwise 3, Subterfuge 8, Survival4

Obviously, a Devil-Tiger must match the minimum scores listed before testing for the rank in question, rather than taking the test and having the Abilities bestowed magically as a result.

[Rock113]

Double post

[Saur Ops Specialist]

Cry of Blood (Kiai 6) seems borked enough in math to give an easy win in an upfront fight, what with it doing levels of aggravated damage equal to Dharma x successes on a Stamina + Occult roll, all for one Yin*. Two successes can easily overwhelm the Fortitude of most Kindred, and methusalahs are going to have serious trouble with four or more. That's just from the basement Dharma of 6, too.

Edit:*Breath-stealing also makes it possible to poach Yin from blood points, so you can steal vitae from a Kindred and then kill them with it.

[Thoth]

Kindred vs. Kuei-jin is question that can only be answered with several qualifiers.

Many Kuei-jin powers are swiss army knives as opposed to single use sledge hammers like Kindred Disciplines. So to do a correct "white room" fight, you need to take into account how tactical and strategic the Kuei-jin is going to be.

Also it is crucial to remember that Kuei-jin have artifacts as part and parcel for all Dharmas, including making new ones. So while chi pools might be small there is no restriction on how many jade items you can wear as back up batteries. Never mind an artifact that can change mechanics or add to dice pools. A Kuei-jin with Iron Mountain 5 and an amulet with a powerful spirit who can lend its soak pool to the vampire is a nightmare to fight. Add a soak based Demon Shintai build and you will wonder how any Devil Tiger elders ever manage to die.

So yeah at first glance a Gangrel with Protean 5 and Fortitude 5 seems to have the advantage in a white room fight, but upon closer inspection the Devil Tiger with Demon Shintai 5 & Iron Mountain 5 and several artifacts can completely flip the table on all the math. Especially if the Demon Shintai form included things like wings or the agg damage weapon, seriously it gets comical watching the gangrel get turned into a pin cushion because the kuei-jin refuses to land and thus get into melee range and just taking pot shots with its demonic spirit bow.

The tricky thing about "white room" tests is that they often strip out the critical things that make or break a fight, such as creativity and strategy.

[Natsymir]

Kindred of the East always seemed to have very, very easy and plentiful access to aggravated damage, and high levels of their Kiai discipline, especially, made grotesque amounts of damage. Based on that alone, I think they have an edge.

Furthermore, Kuei-jin are more resistant to sunlight, if they are aspected towards the proper type of Chi, and they all have Lifesight and Ghostsight, meaning that they can detect Cainites more easily than Cainites can detect them.

They also have lots of powers that lets them deal with spirits and ghosts, things Cainites generally lack any powers to counter.

They can also access other planes of existence much more easily than Cainites.

And they ALL have a form of either Celerity (Black Wind) or Protean (Demon Shintai).

Cainites have more powerful social disciplines, like Presence and Dominate and mind-reading Auspex, and lower generations of Cainites have much higher blood pools than Kuei-jin does Chi pools.

But generally speaking, due to the plethora of more esoteric powers that Kuei-jin have and that the Cainites can't really counter, I think if numbers were equal, the Kuei-jin would definitely win. Their Lifesight especially would give them an utterly enormous scouting advantage during an assault on a Cainite city. It would enable them to walk around the streets scanning for Kindred, more or less, and thus isolate and assassinate their foes. One might also assume that the Kuei-jin are all like the Sabbat, as they're essentially an army destined to fight the Yama Kings, so it's reasonable to think that almost every single Kuei-jin is trained for combat. This is not necessarily so with Cainites, where many might be more social, cautious creatures.


However...Cainites can Embrace. Kuei-jin are chosen by karma. Cainites can blood bind mortals, and create ghouls. Kuei-jin can't, really. In a protracted conflict, the Cainites might eventually gain an advantage because of that. They'd better recruit some Giovanni or Harbingers of Skulls ASAP though, to deal with all the ghosts the Kuei-jin can utilize against them.

[Penelope]

Rock113 what’s a white room?

Also, they would probably be more likely to fight each other through minions and social/political manipulation than direct combat unless one of them could ambush the other when they were weakened and their defenses were down.

[Saga]

I recall Ancestor, IIRC if you want to become a true one you must pass a very difficult rite. Canon has several Lv.7 Rites for this role（Welcoming the penangallan, etc.) . So maybe existing Bodhisattvas are more powerful than average Meths because they must pass this test first... I don’t know the title like Madarin or Ancestor are just addresses like Neonate, Ancilla OR social status...

And entries are in the page 36 of Devil Tiger book. If you look at the rank “Sagacious” you will find the stats are also very terrible...

EDIT:

Resource:

You are only describing the last 3 ranks, and they are 4 ranks before them Apprentice/Journeyman/Skillful/Sturdy.

My Devil-Tiger PC asked me to read the Dharmabook and try himself into the August Body of Sagacious Devils. I liked the idea and it turned out into a great individual scene. The PC even wrote an essay on Ki Chuan and recited to the table, it was great! Then I linked with Chiu Bao first suggestion to the Ash Plan (which fails due to the Great Maelstrom) and a rare appearance of Eight Thunders Sage, to which I'll have it as story seed when I take the wu to the Infinite Thunders court (1999) in the next session. I really enjoyed the idea and so did the players. Numerical values are guidelines only, storytelling is the real thing when it comes to white-wolf games.

Much of the prestation system among them reminds me of the Courts of Blood of the Lasombra

- Saga

[Rock113]

Cry of Blood (Kiai 6) seems borked enough in math to give an easy win in an upfront fight, what with it doing levels of aggravated damage equal to Dharma x successes on a Stamina + Occult roll, all for one Yin*. Two successes can easily overwhelm the Fortitude of most Kindred, and methusalahs are going to have serious trouble with four or more. That's just from the basement Dharma of 6, too.

Edit:*Breath-stealing also makes it possible to poach Yin from blood points, so you can steal vitae from a Kindred and then kill them with it.

You have said this in another post, which I have mentioned in the topic. but I can’t find it right now. IIRC Undead Rabbit argued you that you can’t determine a splat with just one kind of power (and it’s a really rare one, no canon NPCs have it).

EDIT:

Somebody used to point out that Kuei Jin’s advanced disciplines are weaker than Kindred’s similar, same-level powers.

You have said this in another post, which I have mentioned in the topic. but I can’t find it right now.

Found it.

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...-kue-jin/page4

Kindred vs. Kuei-jin is question that can only be answered with several qualifiers.

You have used the same argument in the post I mentioned above:
http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...-kue-jin/page2

Just saying, never mind.

You are only describing the last 3 ranks, and they are 4 ranks before them Apprentice/Journeyman/Skillful/Sturdy.

My quoted posts are about Bodhisattvas, which is more suitable for the last 3 ranks (Canon dharma 7 guys have lower stats than kindreds of the same generation, so I think maybe Talented or Wise are still common in Botthsattava)

[Pleiades]

We all know KotE is of the VtM. They use more similar system than other gamelines. So did anyone compare them in a more fair condition?

you' probably wanna check this guy's work
http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...s-and-analysis

[Saga]

You have said this in another post, which I have mentioned in the topic. but I can’t find it right now. IIRC Undead Rabbit argued you that you can’t determine a splat with just one kind of power (and it’s a really rare one, no canon NPCs have it).

EDIT:




Found it.

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...-kue-jin/page4



You have used the same argument in the post I mentioned above:
http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...-kue-jin/page2

Just saying, never mind.


My quoted posts are about Bodhisattvas, which is more suitable for the last 3 ranks (Canon dharma 7 guys have lower stats than kindreds of the same generation, so I think maybe Talented or Wise are still common in Botthsattava)

There are only two named bodhisattvas of the Devil-Tiger:

- Eight Thunders Sage, unknown if member of the August Body, surviving the Burning of Books means he is from Qin Shi Huang era while alive that means his Second Breath was around 200 BC. Applying the Children of the Night character creation formula, if the math is right (I just did it for another NPC of similar age) unless he spent all his effort on the minimum requirements, he'll probably make it to Talented
- No-Shadow Raven, young and not of the sect


Then there are some of unknown dharma like:

- Empress Dyanang, most probably Thrashing Dragon
- Flame-Eater, fits the profile of a Devil-Tiger but hasn't been around since before the Qin era (200 BC) and was known to be corrupted, so the August Body would never allow it to be member (they aren't like the Green courts or the Golden courts)

Unluckily we never got a detailed description of any of the 3 last ranks of the August Body.

- Saga

[Rock113]

- Eight Thunders Sage, unknown if member of the August Body, surviving the Burning of Books means he is from Qin Shi Huang era while alive that means his Second Breath was around 200 BC.

“Survive” just means he is at least 2200+ years old, nonthing more. In my opinion he should be much older, after all he is a virtual Arhat and be involved in fighting the Ravnos.

Applying the Children of the Night character creation formula, if the math is right (I just did it for another NPC of similar age) unless he spent all his effort on the minimum requirements, he'll probably make it to Talented

I think he should be the Sagacious at least according to his background.

And, well, to be honest I always ignore this rule, even the writers don’t follow them, according to existing Kuei Jin npcs. Needless to say kindred ones

*In fact there is a Kuei Jin originating from the Qin Dynasty, a dharma 7 akuma called Gan Shuo in Hong Kong by Night. She’s stats is.. well, poor kuei jin...

*

even the writers don’t follow them, according to existing Kuei Jin npcs. Needless to say kindred ones

The distinction is, kindred ones tend to be overrated, kuei ones tend to be underrated.

Writers seem to be very restraint when designing kuei ones, especially those with advanced powers. Some guys should be very great have lesser stats. For example, Chan Te in San Francisco by Night, the WARLORD of MIKABOSHI, only have several masterys and no 6+ traits.


*Although the canon is very vague and messy but I always have a sense: the kuei jin (as a splat) is much younger than kindred... and I don’t know why but the oldest canon bodhisattvas are always from the Qin or Han Dynasty...

I suspect writers didn’t always make an effort on this gameline. Some places give me a strange sense.