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Menele vs Helena

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  • Menele vs Helena

    Apparantly they fought in single combat and it was a draw. How is it possible that he didn't destroy her as soon as the fight started? Look at their stats.


    Menele: Animalism 5, Auspex 6, Celerity 9, Dominate 6, Fortitude 6, Obfuscate 2, Potence 8, Presence 5, Protean 5, Thaumaturgy 7
    Helena: Animalism 1, Auspex 7, Celerity 5, Dominate 8, Fortitude 5, Obfuscate 5, Potence 4, Presence 5, Thaumaturgy 4

    How are these two even remotely in each others league?

    Celerity 9, Potence 8, Thaumaturgy 7 and Protean 5 (not to mention Fortitude 6) should have made this a very easy victory for Menele. His disclipline spread makes him a beast in single combat. What edge does Helena have over Menele? Auspex, Obfuscate and Dominate.

    Dominate is useless against a vampire of the same generation (right?) so its really just Auspex and Obfuscate.

    Can someone explain to me how she might have hold her own in that fight? Maybe there is something i am missing.
    Last edited by blackshade; 12-28-2019, 02:39 PM.

  • #2
    Dominate and Generation
    V20 pg 158 "Vampires: It is impossible to Dominate another Kindred who is of stronger Blood. The vampire must be of an equal or higher Generation than the target for the powers to be effective."

    The most obvious draw is both spamming Presence 5 and burning through their Willpower to act against each other.

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    • #3
      Helena was the more interesting of the two, plus she probably used Prias's sword that made impossible for Menele to heal the wounds (what other reason could there be for her coming out of Torpor with a 3ish humanity and he didn't with a 9 or some crazy number if I remember right. If she got in a good first strike he was under a lot of wound penalties.

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      • #4
        I think they also retconned Menele to be Road of Entelecy. I wouldn't be surprised if his Humanity score was a lie too.

        But an easy way for Helena to win?

        Menele: KILL HER!

        Garou: ROWR!

        Helena: No, KILL HIM!

        Menele: Crap.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • #5
          <<MENELE ROLLS ATTACK>>: 1, 5, 3, 1, 1, 2, 1, 7, 4, 1, 1
          <<HELENA ROLLS ATTACK>>: 8, 10, 10, 5, 3, 9, 2

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          • #6
            Mind you, I think that all of the stats for Methuselahs are badly done in every edition.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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            • #7
              Probably shouldn't read too much into any one particular batch of stats. Sometimes the published stats contradict each other. Durga Syn comes to mind.

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              • #8
                Stats at time of CBN publication is not necessarily indicative of when they actually fought.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                  Mind you, I think that all of the stats for Methuselahs are badly done in every edition.
                  To be honest I think most canon stats for vampires make few sense. I empathized this from time to time.

                  Many stats are... too overpowered and extreme, a lot of elders and meths have multiple traits at their generation peak. This is unimaginable in other splats.

                  This problem is especially serious in earlier editions, later ones are better, but still bad—look at Keminteri in V20.

                  *Even the npcs of Kuei Jin, the eastern brothers of kindred don’t resemble this. I can see authorities are much more restraint in writing them. I think this is more reasonable.
                  Last edited by Rock113; 12-29-2019, 02:32 AM.

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                  • #10
                    I actually felt most 4th gen Meth stats were pretty tame for vampires that age. The only one that lived up to the hype was Shaitan/Huitzilopochtli. Just compare his sheet to, say. Baba Yaga's, who's supposed to be even older than him

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                    • #11
                      I agree, stats in ancient vampires as Menelee and Helena are like writing a sheet to Cthulhu or Hastur and asking who will win in a fight. No understandably, primigens and eldricht horrors more ancient than time had stats in earlier editions of Call of Cthulhu. The fact is to the characters does not matter Protean 8 or Protean 9, they will die anyway against an ancient. And the battles between them are not intended to be played in front of the characters as a bad Dragon ball show. Furthermore, most of the ancients favour the use of pawns, instead straight hand to hand combat. But, if you are asking for the use of Auspex and Obfuscate in a Dragon ball combat, Auspex could let you foreseen every movement, dodge or attack that would do your opponent. And Obfuscate in the first editions could affect the mind as later would do Chimestry, creating harming illusions, false realities and even trapping you in.

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                      • #12
                        If i remember correctly Menele has no idea what firearms are and have to kill small army before reaching Helena, so hes probably was out of blood and had severe injury due to constant shots

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                        • #13
                          Okay, different people have different opinions.There are some tame npcs(Izhim ur-Baal). But to be honest , to me most of them are overwhelmed. They don't need to have such high stats. I think WW should consider more about this.

                          Originally posted by Justycar View Post
                          I agree, stats in ancient vampires as Menelee and Helena are like writing a sheet to Cthulhu or Hastur and asking who will win in a fight.Nors more ancient than time had stats in earlier editions of Call of Cthulhu. The fact is to the characters does not matter Protean 8 or Protean 9, they will die anyway against an ancient. And the battles between them are not intended to be played in front of the characters as a bad Dragon ball show. Furthermore, most of the ancients favour the use of pawns, instead straight hand to hand combat. But, if you are asking for the use of Auspex and Obfuscate in a Dragon ball combat, Auspex could let you foreseen every movement, dodge or attack that would do your opponent. And Obfuscate in the first editions could affect the mind as later would do Chimestry, creating harming illusions, false realities and even trapping you in.
                          Well, meths powers are great, but may not THAT great, meths as well.
                          Last edited by Rock113; 12-29-2019, 06:35 AM.

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                          • #14
                            I do what I do with Exalted Elders. They have stats that make sense for them. If I recall correctly the Toreador Helena was embraced in 1,300 BCE. So she is over 3,000 years old. She would have had time to enhance her body to whatever fashion she desired. Learned whatever skill or discipline made sense for her to have. A three thousand year old vampire should be scary and nigh invincible/unbeatable in the fields in which they excel.

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                            • #15
                              According top their stats it simply does not make sense, because Menele is (was?) way more powerful than Helena. And yes, he had humanity 10 (basically an unliving saint) so he should not have spent centuries in torpor.
                              That said those things did not need to make sense. There's a huge number of ways to rationalize how Helena fought Menele to a draw and besides it was what the authors of CbN wanted. Point is Menele was a relic of the game when it was in its earlier stages. He was the obvious good guy faced with the evil nemesis that was Helena. He and his story were also extremely cheap. When revisited arrived and it was stressed out that vampires were monsters first and foremost Menele was basically an embarasment better ignored than aknowledged. The ultra ancient 4th gen vampire with humanity 10. That is why I believe V5 developers made the decision to get rid of him... Menele flew in the face of what they wanted for V5 and to be honest he never was that great of a character anyway.

                              Edit: on the same vein having Maxwell be more powerful than Tyler was another nonsensichal decision but CbN (2nd ed) was full of those
                              Last edited by Haquim; 12-29-2019, 02:46 PM.

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