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Menele vs Helena

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
    I think all 4th gens are very mysterious, after all they are the direct childer of 3rd gens, but not unbeatable gods. They can be made good stories.
    I'm a big fan of secret histories, where events or people in history are not what we think. So I quite enjoy using characters like Helena.
    I think it's down to personal taste on that one.

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    • #32
      I think it depends on whether the mystery serves a purpose, or it just exists to BE mystery. There's kind of a difficult balancing act between mystery and an eventual payoff (World of Darkness walked this tightrope, but plenty of other fandoms have. Look at FNAF and its approach to metaplot and how that's driven fans.) At the same time you don't want to tip your hand too early or you ruin the buildup, whilst at the same time depriving players and storytellers of good plot hooks they can use to build/adapt their own particular narrative Mythos.

      If you're clever about it, you can usually 'de-mythify' things and still leave yourself wiggle room so you aren't painted into a corner or you don't strip away ALL the mystery. WoD wasn't bad at it and I've seen worse planned story arcs (Babylon 5 had more difficulties there, as a comparative example.)

      As far as the rest of this thread goes I'm... not quite sure what the point is. It seems like it was based on a series of assumptions which may or may not have a source or may be based off some 'what some guy on the internet said' hearsay. Its not clearly defined, but given all the (reasonable to me) objections and context others have brought up, it would be worth clarifying what the original context that is the source fo contention (a quote, a page number from a book or whether this is indeed hearsay.)

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Logothétēs View Post
        I actually felt most 4th gen Meth stats were pretty tame for vampires that age. The only one that lived up to the hype was Shaitan/Huitzilopochtli. Just compare his sheet to, say. Baba Yaga's, who's supposed to be even older than him
        You are using the wrong gauge then, because the point of Shaitan is being overpowered, something that is right there in his background - he was so powerful for his age it bothered even antediluvians and lead to his exile. The whole idea with him in Chaos Factor is "err, no Sam, that guy is not an antediluvian - but i can understand the mistake, believe me."

        So, no, not supposed at all to be an example of a "typical" methuselah, his age or otherwise, ever....
        Last edited by Baaldam; 01-04-2020, 01:51 AM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Baaldam View Post

          You are using the wrong gauge then, because the point of Shaitan is being overpowered, something that is right there in his background - he was so powerful for his age it bothered even antediluvians and lead to his exile. The whole idea with him in Chaos Factor is "err, no Sam, that guy is not an antediluvian - but i can understand the mistake, believe me."

          So, no, not supposed at all to be an example of a "typical" methuselah, his age or otherwise, ever....

          Agreed. Shaitan/Huitzilopochtli/Nergal or whatever you want to call him is not a typical methuselah. Him and Ur-shulgi are in a league of their own as far as methuselah's are concerned. I figure they are both very close to the power of an Antedilluvian. Maybe Moloch too. Their power most likely comes from demonic deals they have made.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by blackshade View Post


            Agreed. Shaitan/Huitzilopochtli/Nergal or whatever you want to call him is not a typical methuselah. Him and Ur-shulgi are in a league of their own as far as methuselah's are concerned. I figure they are both very close to the power of an Antedilluvian. Maybe Moloch too. Their power most likely comes from demonic deals they have made.

            I'm not even sure Moloch and Ur-shulgi would match Shaitan/Huitzilopochtli (but then i'm also the guy who prefers to consider he's not Nergal and that claim of Moloch either a mistake or a blatant lie) in power level, but agree they might be the only two canon methuselahs with justification to do so.

            The whole point of Shaitan's stats in Chaos Factor can be summed up as "evil ovepowerlord antediluvian expy", along with the False Caine from Berlin by Night and (to a lesser degree) Japheth in Last Supper.
            Last edited by Baaldam; 01-05-2020, 12:27 AM.

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            • #36
              To be fair regarding Baba Yaga, witchcraft is her jam and since her stats appeared in an early Werewolf book, White Wolf represented that solely with "Thaumaturgy 9." I can easily see her with another 30 or 40 dots in blood sorcery paths. And that Shadow Curtain she managed to create is the grandest display of supernatural power I've seen by a vampire other than an antediluvian.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
                To be fair regarding Baba Yaga, witchcraft is her jam and since her stats appeared in an early Werewolf book, White Wolf represented that solely with "Thaumaturgy 9." I can easily see her with another 30 or 40 dots in blood sorcery paths. And that Shadow Curtain she managed to create is the grandest display of supernatural power I've seen by a vampire other than an antediluvian.

                Very true, but then much of the same can be said of Japheth or Shaitan.

                Overall i don't worry overmuch about discipline totals of canon NPCs, as i know i'll gut most of them to taste anyway. Truth be told, if i ever ST Chicago again - what i haven't done since the 90s, though i played it twice in the last decade - i'm quite certainly going to tweak a lot of stuff on their stats, but then that's how i roll, i like to adjust crunch to fit fluff where i can.
                Last edited by Baaldam; 01-05-2020, 12:21 PM.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                  I think that vampires should be semi-mythological at 4th generation.

                  I can't take seriously a 4th generation vampire named, say, "Emilio Lazarus" versus, "Mithras" or "The Dracon."
                  There's a different between building a mysterious character and just stating "in the past this vampire was worshipped as the god XXX", doing that is silly and cheap IMO, especially when you consider the game insists mankind is the one moving history forward and vampires are basically justy leeches stealing a ride. Revisited dialed back a lot of this silliness and it was well done imo.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Haquim View Post

                    There's a different between building a mysterious character and just stating "in the past this vampire was worshipped as the god XXX", doing that is silly and cheap IMO, especially when you consider the game insists mankind is the one moving history forward and vampires are basically justy leeches stealing a ride. Revisited dialed back a lot of this silliness and it was well done imo.
                    I think that "vampires accomplish nothing" is also something of a dumb decision as well. There's a happy medium I'm sure between, "vampires are the masters of all humanity" and "our world is completely unchanged the addition of by powerful elites of mind-controlling parasites."


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                      I think that "vampires accomplish nothing" is also something of a dumb decision as well. There's a happy medium I'm sure between, "vampires are the masters of all humanity" and "our world is completely unchanged the addition of by powerful elites of mind-controlling parasites."
                      The World of Darkness is a darker reflection of our own precisely because things like vampires (or Pentex, or the Technocracy) are "real" there. Vampires create nothing good, they make things worse for basically everyone that comes in contact with them. These are things that were repeated time and again during revisited era and seems like V5 has taken these same concepts to heart. Personally I fully agree with them.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Haquim View Post

                        The World of Darkness is a darker reflection of our own precisely because things like vampires (or Pentex, or the Technocracy) are "real" there. Vampires create nothing good, they make things worse for basically everyone that comes in contact with them. These are things that were repeated time and again during revisited era and seems like V5 has taken these same concepts to heart. Personally I fully agree with them.
                        Eh, you can theoretically have a vampire make things better but it's like 99% unlikely given they're a bunch of homicidal blood addicts.


                        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                        • #42
                          Or you could have them making things better in some places whilst other places go completely to shit. I mean thats kinda how it is in real life what with the different standards of living, life expectancy/mortality, economic equality, etc. The differences would just be magnified in the WoD: Fewer 'good' places and/or the good places would be less well off, and more 'bad' places and/or the bad places are worse off. I've been toying with this idea in 5th that the 'Empire of Blood' is not one thing but a bunch of antedilivuan run 'kingdoms' across the globe seeking to conquer the rest of it (whilst fighting each other) as other factions (including other vampires) fight to hold it back (hence you still have areas of civilization and 'normalcy' although they may be in decline as the conflicts grow and get 'closer to home' so to speak.)

                          You could even do the flip side where everything is Fallout-esque (everything fell apart, but things have slowly been building back to a semblance of what we were used to, if not as consistently so as in real life. see New California Republic, etc.)

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