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  • #31
    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
    I was introduced to V20 at my university gaming club maybe five years back. It completely blew everyone away. The guy who introduced it to us had like ten people at his table, it was obviously too much but people came anyway. We were discussing it very often because we were so invested in it. To us, DnD had nothing on V20. Of course, since it was print on demand, I had no Idea it existed till I saw a very large number of people gather around the big green book every wed. I read the whole book, cover to cover, just to get involved and run games myself, because that stuff was dope. I then went on to read virtually every non-city supplement, werewolf and mage. I even got into wraith and demon. The whole thing just... Spoke to me. A rich tapestry of literature that I could deal out and have people lap it up as if it were heroin.

    V5 has absolutely nothing on that. If V20 was released now, as a normal release, it would really give DnD a run for the money. V5 is like a British Pizza; It may taste alright but you know there's better.
    That's fair enough, I've had that reaction to games before. I'm not sure even V20 could knock D&D off it's perch (seriously, people are obsessed with that game!). Oddly it was experiencing revised at uni that pulled me in and got me interested in the wider WoD!

    Do you guys still play V20?

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    • #32
      Originally posted by blailton View Post
      I was in one game IRL until recently and it was Revised, after our ST end the story. It was perfect? Hell no. But play as a vampire feels good
      Be a powerfull dark creature is good. Cry in a corner, not so.
      It’’s my understanding that the upcoming Player’s Guide will be looking to invest in alternatives styles of play, so you may be in luck. For me, though, what you are describing here is essentially a return to the idea of wanting to play ’superheroes with fangs’. So while you may get a nod to what you want - and I’m not going to attack you for that - it’s largely the antithesis of what Vampire is trying to be: a game of 'Personal Horror’. For me, there are lots of games that can do empowered, urban fantasies out there now - many of which do that type of game better than any version of Vampire, if I’m honest. However, what I want from Vampire is a game of personal horror, with a bit of dark mystery and politics. That’s what I get with V5.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Trippy View Post
        It’’s my understanding that the upcoming Player’s Guide will be looking to invest in alternatives styles of play, so you may be in luck. For me, though, what you are describing here is essentially a return to the idea of wanting to play ’superheroes with fangs’. So while you may get a nod to what you want - and I’m not going to attack you for that - it’s largely the antithesis of what Vampire is trying to be: a game of 'Personal Horror’. For me, there are lots of games that can do empowered, urban fantasies out there now - many of which do that type of game better than any version of Vampire, if I’m honest. However, what I want from Vampire is a game of personal horror, with a bit of dark mystery and politics. That’s what I get with V5.
        If you got what you wanted that's cool. But I disagree about the superheros with fangs terminology. It's just a echo chamber meme that need to die.

        The others rpgs felt empty and shallow to me. Urban Shadows for example is just too generic. Undying don't stat what a vampire can and cannot do, and I never put my hands on Feed. Monsterearts to me was too without crunch and I don't know if I like highschool aproach. Requiem lost me on the fog of the ages thing, and D&D is "meh".

        Most of urban fantasy scenarios don't engage me when they put "...and humanity never discovered about supernatural because (insert lazy plot device here)". VtM was the exeption.
        Last edited by blailton; 01-05-2020, 10:26 PM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by blailton View Post

          If you got what you wanted that's cool. But I disagree about the superheros with fangs terminology. It's just a echo chamber meme that need to die.

          The others rpgs felt empty and shallow to me. Urban Shadows for example is just too generic. Undying don't stat what a vampire can and cannot do, and I never put my hands in Feed. Monsterearts to me was too without crunch and I don't know if I like highschool aproach. Requiem lost me on the fog of the ages thing, and D&D is "meh".

          Most of urban fantasy scenarios don't engage me when they put "...and humanity never discovered about supernatural because (insert lazy plot device here)". VtM was the exeption.
          Well, you are entitled to like what you like, and incidentally interpret any game you like to play the way you want to. And that is fine by me. But actually, what you describe to me is exactly that: 'superheroes with fangs'. Now, I don’t necessarily mean that all the characters become 'Four Color heroes’, like Superman comics and the like, but that the thrill you get from playing the game is that you play a “powerful, dark creature’ which may be a bit of an antihero, but otherwise suffers no real personal consequence for being a vampire. What you describe, equally dismissively as ‘cry in a corner’ actually represents an important aspect of the game to me: that you are a monster and you are compelled to exist in a way that is horrific. It’s a central premise of the game, as the text describes it and it’s a key to the engagement I have for the game (as well as others!).

          Now you and I may not ever come to an agreement on this, but as I said, Modiphius do plan to at least discuss the idea of ‘alternative play styles’ in their upcoming Player’s Guide. You may find some appeal on this.
          Last edited by Trippy; 01-05-2020, 09:37 PM.

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          • #35
            I liked VTM for it's political horror. I liked playing a game where paranoia was justified and I needed to try to get things exactly as I wanted to avoid consequences. It wasn't because the treasure chest was a mimick, It was because my slightest mistake could send me into a downward spiral. I liked the game because every member of our coterie had strong individual motivations and we weren't afraid to act agains eachother, yet we worked together for something completely organically without railroads. I liked that I did't need to make a combat munchkin to kick ass and could just play a boss get npcs to do my muscle work for me, if i were so inclined.

            I liked creating playing an interesting person that was relatable yet so different or even contrary to my own values. I liked making my own reasons for investing in him/her.

            I don't think v5 is this game at all. It doesn't resonate, it repulses me.


            V5 is not VTM

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            • #36
              Superheroes with Fangs is a meaningless statement.

              Bloodlines has you doing a lot of "missions" and "fighting crime" but it's the best thing in the setting.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                I liked VTM for it's political horror. I liked playing a game where paranoia was justified and I needed to try to get things exactly as I wanted to avoid consequences. It wasn't because the treasure chest was a mimick, It was because my slightest mistake could send me into a downward spiral. I liked the game because every member of our coterie had strong individual motivations and we weren't afraid to act agains eachother, yet we worked together for something completely organically without railroads. I liked that I did't need to make a combat munchkin to kick ass and could just play a boss get npcs to do my muscle work for me, if i were so inclined.

                I liked creating playing an interesting person that was relatable yet so different or even contrary to my own values. I liked making my own reasons for investing in him/her.

                I don't think v5 is this game at all. It doesn't resonate, it repulses me.
                I'm not sure I follow on how V5 prevents you running this kind of game?

                Comment


                • #38
                  There are soft reasons and hard reasons In V5
                  Lack of pressure:
                  You're basically assumed an Anarch, so the careful political manuevering is somewhat less neccessary. You don't need to dig yourself out of a political hole for endangering the masquerade or expressing a sentiment that doesn't toe the party line. Even if you're not an Anarch, it's much clearer that there's a viable alternative, so you don't need to worry about the system you're in because, if you fail it, you can just adopt another system. This is twice as true for Tremere; Before, there was no easy alternative; now you can pick and choose whatever you like. The pressure just isn't there because it's so easy to pack your bags and leave. Even thinbloods and caitiff have had a pressure release because they've now got their own niche services and are thus valued more. Just having more options weakens the options there.

                  Now, as for the second part of my post.
                  Firstly, It's hard to be forced to care for something. I "Need" a touchstone? My scary wife becomes something on my checklist. It loses the organic flavour of thinking up what I care about.
                  Second of course, is that you can't be a prick. I enjoy exploring different people. I've played venture capitalists and I've played labourers, radical feminists and rapists, environmentalists and infernalists, cops and criminals, doctors and idiots, cultists and fiercly independent people. I play people who aren't idealised versions of myself; and that just doesn't seem to be what V5 wants. You are supposed to take a pre-made set of values and told not to give yourself a morality that isn't moral or noble. The book has asked you to play a PG person, they have limited your options on purpose and have thus put a clamp upon the diversity of the party; There is no glorious clash of ideas; The coterie do not develop from one another, as they are all on the same page.

                  Furthermore you've got hunger. You are no longer responsible for your actions as the Beast is no longer manageable. In V20 you had a strong locus of control; If you screwed up it was your fault. It was your character's fault that something happened, or your character's fault that they didn't pay attention to the beast and allowed for a frenzy. It was your fault you fucked up in court, made enemies and got dominated into doing something you didn't want to do. In V5's case, unless you're murdering people (The quick way to degeneration) you always have the beast wanting to add some ovekill complications to your action that you've got no way to control. It's neither the player nor the character's fault that your subduing punch was turned into a lethal throat strike; it was the hunger dice. You just accept that sometimes you'll murder people and there's nothing at all that you can do about it, other than never roll anything of course; It robs the players of agency, it robs the masquerade's justification and it robs the Camarilla's just right to enforce it.

                  Oh yeah, and they built the disciplines around LARP and it's limitations. Simple disciplines like potence or celerity are now a collection of speed-based tricks. But dominate's been entirely gutted because I imagine the way it worked wasn't fun in LARP. Social disciplines are weaker because of LARPs limitations, and that's total bullshit. Dominate was powerful, many argue too powerful, but the way it worked was absolutely neccessary for the masquerade and, well, a creative player's fun. They could've used the same powers but made them slightly weaker, but instead they changed it in a way that... It just doesn't fucking work. There's a seperate metaphysical argument to be made about the disciplines, but the way dominate worked was vital and now they've done goofed it for the Table guys and the lore at large because the dressup lot are bad actors who can't use mesmorize in their medium. You can't use Obfuscate regularly because it requires so much blood roused. There were so many smart reasons why the disciplines were what they are in VTM, V5 is entirely ignorant of them, and the game sufferss as a result. Most powers were free of a blood cost not only because of metaphysics (That argument's for somewhere else) but because you weren't supposed to be afraid of using them unless you were misusing them. I shouldn't be ending on this point cause of the whole dumbass "superheroes with fangs" shtick so you can go back and read my first two points if you'd like, but V5 really dropped the ball when it came to everything. "Oh, I'm a vampire, oh the tragedy of being a vampire" wasn't the horror of vampire, it was more "Oh, I'm a vampire, and the whole world is against me for being who I am, I am stuck in an oppressive system and I can only fight wrongs with wrongs"
                  V5 is so horribly self indulgent it lost sight of what it was meant to be. The Oppression and injustice that characterized the world has been so viciously undermined and replaced with an episode of self pity.
                  Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 01-06-2020, 12:39 PM.


                  V5 is not VTM

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                    There are soft reasons and hard reasons In V5
                    Lack of pressure:
                    You're basically assumed an Anarch, so the careful political manuevering is somewhat less neccessary. You don't need to dig yourself out of a political hole for endangering the masquerade or expressing a sentiment that doesn't toe the party line. Even if you're not an Anarch, it's much clearer that there's a viable alternative, so you don't need to worry about the system you're in because, if you fail it, you can just adopt another system. This is twice as true for Tremere; Before, there was no easy alternative; now you can pick and choose whatever you like. The pressure just isn't there because it's so easy to pack your bags and leave. Even thinbloods and caitiff have had a pressure release because they've now got their own niche services and are thus valued more. Just having more options weakens the options there.

                    Now, as for the second part of my post.
                    Firstly, It's hard to be forced to care for something. I "Need" a touchstone? My scary wife becomes something on my checklist. It loses the organic flavour of thinking up what I care about.
                    Second of course, is that you can't be a prick. I enjoy exploring different people. I've played venture capitalists and I've played labourers, radical feminists and rapists, environmentalists and infernalists, cops and criminals, doctors and idiots, cultists and fiercly independent people. I play people who aren't idealised versions of myself; and that just doesn't seem to be what V5 wants. You are supposed to take a pre-made set of values and told not to give yourself a morality that isn't moral or noble. The book has asked you to play a PG person, they have limited your options on purpose and have thus put a clamp upon the diversity of the party; There is no glorious clash of ideas; The coterie do not develop from one another, as they are all on the same page.

                    Furthermore you've got hunger. You are no longer responsible for your actions as the Beast is no longer manageable. In V20 you had a strong locus of control; If you screwed up it was your fault. It was your character's fault that something happened, or your character's fault that they didn't pay attention to the beast and allowed for a frenzy. It was your fault you fucked up in court, made enemies and got dominated into doing something you didn't want to do. In V5's case, unless you're murdering people (The quick way to degeneration) you always have the beast wanting to add some ovekill complications to your action that you've got no way to control. It's neither the player nor the character's fault that your subduing punch was turned into a lethal throat strike; it was the hunger dice. You just accept that sometimes you'll murder people and there's nothing at all that you can do about it, other than never roll anything of course; It robs the players of agency, it robs the masquerade's justification and it robs the Camarilla's just right to enforce it.

                    Oh yeah, and they built the disciplines around LARP and it's limitations. Simple disciplines like potence or celerity are now a collection of speed-based tricks. But dominate's been entirely gutted because I imagine the way it worked wasn't fun in LARP. Social disciplines are weaker because of LARPs limitations, and that's total bullshit. Dominate was powerful, many argue too powerful, but the way it worked was absolutely neccessary for the masquerade and, well, a creative player's fun. They could've used the same powers but made them slightly weaker, but instead they changed it in a way that... It just doesn't fucking work. There's a seperate metaphysical argument to be made about the disciplines, but the way dominate worked was vital and now they've done goofed it for the Table guys and the lore at large because the dressup lot are bad actors who can't use mesmorize in their medium. You can't use Obfuscate regularly because it requires so much blood roused. There were so many smart reasons why the disciplines were what they are in VTM, V5 is entirely ignorant of them, and the game sufferss as a result. Most powers were free of a blood cost not only because of metaphysics (That argument's for somewhere else) but because you weren't supposed to be afraid of using them unless you were misusing them. I shouldn't be ending on this point cause of the whole dumbass "superheroes with fangs" shtick so you can go back and read my first two points if you'd like, but V5 really dropped the ball when it came to everything. "Oh, I'm a vampire, oh the tragedy of being a vampire" wasn't the horror of vampire, it was more "Oh, I'm a vampire, and the whole world is against me for being who I am, I am stuck in an oppressive system and I can only fight wrongs with wrongs"
                    V5 is so horribly self indulgent it lost sight of what it was meant to be. The Oppression and injustice that characterized the world has been so viciously undermined and replaced with an episode of self pity.
                    About the disciplines that was my sensation too. Celerity 1 Cats grace is not supernatural... anyone can balance themselves. Its not a power is just a human ability ffs. And then, ta-dan! Celerity 2 giving you the incredible power to have 2 extra dice in actions that DON'T envolve fights. Lmao. Despite that the most useless is the 4th dot.

                    I said in another topic, the one about Helena stats, that vampires in v5 are goth mundane humans. Their flaws vastly surpass any merit. Not dangerous predators anymore.
                    Last edited by blailton; 01-06-2020, 01:14 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                      There are soft reasons and hard reasons In V5
                      Lack of pressure:
                      You're basically assumed an Anarch, so the careful political manuevering is somewhat less neccessary. You don't need to dig yourself out of a political hole for endangering the masquerade or expressing a sentiment that doesn't toe the party line. Even if you're not an Anarch, it's much clearer that there's a viable alternative, so you don't need to worry about the system you're in because, if you fail it, you can just adopt another system. This is twice as true for Tremere; Before, there was no easy alternative; now you can pick and choose whatever you like. The pressure just isn't there because it's so easy to pack your bags and leave. Even thinbloods and caitiff have had a pressure release because they've now got their own niche services and are thus valued more. Just having more options weakens the options there.
                      I don't think this is the case because if the Prince wants you dead, he no longer has to justify it if you're an Anarch because you're no longer under the protection of the Camarilla. It's now much more dangerous because the Prince has a lot more authority just to kill any vampires that displease them. Mind you, displeasing the Baron seems like it'd be every bit as dangerous as displeasing the Prince so if a Camarilla city has both then you're screwed either way.

                      COTERIES OF NEW YORK did a good job of how utterly messed up it is to be caught between feuding sects in the same city.

                      Furthermore you've got hunger. You are no longer responsible for your actions as the Beast is no longer manageable.
                      This just doesn't make sense. Vampires were always responsible for their Beast, even if it was just because they didn't choose to meet the Sun every morning.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                        Superheroes with Fangs is a meaningless statement.

                        Bloodlines has you doing a lot of "missions" and "fighting crime" but it's the best thing in the setting.
                        No it’s not. It succinctly makes the point that people are choosing to play with the benefits of having (superhuman) vampire powers, while downplaying the horror aspects of being a vampire.
                        Last edited by Trippy; 01-06-2020, 02:13 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post



                          Oh but it's not me. On this forum is roughly the majority, as you will see if you look through the old threads about the V5.
                          But, if you wish, you can take a peak at the biggest RPG forum out there, which is RPG.net, and see with your eyes that the reaction to V5 has been... divisive... at best.
                          This is the latest big thread about it on RPG.Net

                          https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?thre...ncerns.847604/


                          Older entries are also quite informative.

                          https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?thre...merged.839108/


                          https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?thre...guides.836416/

                          https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?thre...edited.837179/

                          https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?thre...atcher.833120/

                          https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?thre...dition.832247/




                          The matter has been widely discussed here.
                          I could point you here.

                          http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...v5-sour-grapes

                          http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...from-all-sides

                          http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...ivil-this-time

                          http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...to-5th-edition


                          My point was this at the time






                          RPG.net was so exhaustively negative, about almost everything, that I had to delete my account and quit going there.

                          That's the LAST place I'd look for info on the quality of a book(or video game).
                          Last edited by Fat Larry; 01-06-2020, 08:11 PM.


                          The Final Frontier

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            There are soft reasons and hard reasons In V5
                            Lack of pressure:
                            You're basically assumed an Anarch,
                            What is your basis for this assumption?

                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            so the careful political manuevering is somewhat less neccessary.
                            I'm not sure what Anarch game's you've played, but in the ones I've ran or played have quite a bit of political wrangling, it's just a slightly different sort.
                            In one I'm currently running, an outside Anarch it trying to claim the players Domain, but the other Baron's don't want to intervene and weaken their positions, so they are currently wrangling support to try and hold on to what they have.

                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            You don't need to dig yourself out of a political hole for endangering the masquerade or expressing a sentiment that doesn't toe the party line.
                            On the contrary the Masquerade is upheld by the Anarch's even pre-V5, and just as much in the V5 era without the yoke of the Camarilla.
                            The added extra threat of the SI provides additional motive to keep it.

                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            Even if you're not an Anarch, it's much clearer that there's a viable alternative, so you don't need to worry about the system you're in because, if you fail it, you can just adopt another system. This is twice as true for Tremere; Before, there was no easy alternative; now you can pick and choose whatever you like. The pressure just isn't there because it's so easy to pack your bags and leave.
                            But that was already true with the Sabbat and Autarkis.
                            But that aside, if you flip flop between sides no-one will trust you because you have no loyalty, there is still the communal pressure of the sect that you belong, and if you up and leave you have to start from scratch.

                            Like most things this isn't a fundamental design of the game, this is down to how you run your games.

                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            Even thinbloods and caitiff have had a pressure release because they've now got their own niche services and are thus valued more. Just having more options weakens the options there.
                            I guess this comes down to personal preference, as for me this makes them more viable to play, Caitiff were always kinda tolerated, and that's mostly the same.
                            But opening up the option to have Thinbloods be relevent is an interesting dynamic. However it does say that Thinbloods are still persecuted and even outright executed in Domains.
                            Like many things, this is down to how you run your game and what story you want to tell, rather than a mechanic.

                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            Now, as for the second part of my post.
                            Firstly, It's hard to be forced to care for something. I "Need" a touchstone? My scary wife becomes something on my checklist. It loses the organic flavour of thinking up what I care about.
                            I've known a more than a few games that don't care about the life a Vampire leaves behind, or mortals they are linked to. The Touchstone system is a way of helping shape a link back to humanity against the ravages of the beast and give that person a form and a reason. Many of my players have lauded this particular aspect of the system as it helps them shape ideas.

                            Ultimately I think this one is personal preference, if it feels like too much of a crutch it can be ignored as long as you retain the Convictions. Wouldn't be the first Masquerade game that had home rules added to.

                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            Second of course, is that you can't be a prick. I enjoy exploring different people. I've played venture capitalists and I've played labourers, radical feminists and rapists, environmentalists and infernalists, cops and criminals, doctors and idiots, cultists and fiercly independent people. I play people who aren't idealised versions of myself; and that just doesn't seem to be what V5 wants. You are supposed to take a pre-made set of values and told not to give yourself a morality that isn't moral or noble. The book has asked you to play a PG person, they have limited your options on purpose and have thus put a clamp upon the diversity of the party; There is no glorious clash of ideas; The coterie do not develop from one another, as they are all on the same page.
                            I think you might have got the wrong end of the stick on how Convictions work. They represent what the character and Coterie believe. If you want to play Murderous Rapist Infernalists, you need to pick Convictions that match the story you have decided to tell. Even the Touchstones can be worked into this, one example I can think is the abusive Drug Dealer who raised you as an homeless orphan. Your link to him isn't a warm fuzzy glow, it's that he represents why you take no shit and dso what you want, and when you break the conviction, it isn't that your dissapointing him, it's your letting him win.

                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            Furthermore you've got hunger. You are no longer responsible for your actions as the Beast is no longer manageable. In V20 you had a strong locus of control; If you screwed up it was your fault. It was your character's fault that something happened, or your character's fault that they didn't pay attention to the beast and allowed for a frenzy. It was your fault you fucked up in court, made enemies and got dominated into doing something you didn't want to do. In V5's case, unless you're murdering people (The quick way to degeneration) you always have the beast wanting to add some ovekill complications to your action that you've got no way to control. It's neither the player nor the character's fault that your subduing punch was turned into a lethal throat strike; it was the hunger dice. You just accept that sometimes you'll murder people and there's nothing at all that you can do about it, other than never roll anything of course; It robs the players of agency, it robs the masquerade's justification and it robs the Camarilla's just right to enforce it.
                            So the exact effect of a Bestial Failure or Messy Critical is determined by the Storyteller, if every response is to go on a killing spree that is a failing of the Storyteller not the system. I've made great use of Compulsions as a means of expressing BF's and MC's.

                            If you read the lore there are many instances where characters lose control to the beast, it is always talked about as this knawing hunger within, even the tagline 'A Beast I am, lest a Beast I Become' highlights this, but with the old Blood Point system it rarely came into play. With the Hunger mechanic you have a more central mechanic that can represent this danger. In older Vampire Feeding was sometimes entirely optional for a large chunk of a chapter, where in this it is an ever present demon that stalks you. You can push yourself, but there's always the risk when you tempt the Beast.

                            It robs the players of agency in that it adds a risk/reward balance to using the Blood, but again if it results in masquerade breaches or death every time, that is a failing of the Storyteller. There are far more interesting ways of expressing it.

                            If what you are looking for is a less restrictive system that allows you to use lots of powers with minimal risk and let you feel powerful (And to be fair, haven't we all wanted that at one time or another), then I can see this system won't work for you.

                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            Oh yeah, and they built the disciplines around LARP and it's limitations. Simple disciplines like potence or celerity are now a collection of speed-based tricks. But dominate's been entirely gutted because I imagine the way it worked wasn't fun in LARP. Social disciplines are weaker because of LARPs limitations, and that's total bullshit. Dominate was powerful, many argue too powerful, but the way it worked was absolutely neccessary for the masquerade and, well, a creative player's fun. They could've used the same powers but made them slightly weaker, but instead they changed it in a way that... It just doesn't fucking work. There's a seperate metaphysical argument to be made about the disciplines, but the way dominate worked was vital and now they've done goofed it for the Table guys and the lore at large because the dressup lot are bad actors who can't use mesmorize in their medium.
                            First of all I don't think there's any call for bad mouthing the LARPer's. It add's nothing to your argument.

                            I'm confused as to why you think Dominate has been ruined, it auto-work's on mortals, no roll required. So the Masquerade is very easy to preserve in that regard.
                            The powers at the various levels more or less correspond to what was in V20 with some adjustments. Plus the addition of Cloud Memory as an ability that requires no rouse check is one of the best powers in the game! (In my opinion at least, I'm sure others have their favourites).
                            Likewise Presence also auto-works on Mortals.

                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            You can't use Obfuscate regularly because it requires so much blood roused.
                            For obfuscate it really depends on how well you roll, but I will cede the point that I think the cost for moving unseen is a bit steep, especially as the Nosferatu rely on it to get around without breaking the masquerade.

                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            There were so many smart reasons why the disciplines were what they are in VTM, V5 is entirely ignorant of them, and the game sufferss as a result. Most powers were free of a blood cost not only because of metaphysics (That argument's for somewhere else) but because you weren't supposed to be afraid of using them unless you were misusing them. I shouldn't be ending on this point cause of the whole dumbass "superheroes with fangs" shtick so you can go back and read my first two points if you'd like,
                            I agree the phrase "Superheroes with Fangs" is derogatory, there is a valid play style that is more nuanced that it captures.

                            I think this is down to personal preference, I found many of the powers in V20 and earlier were over the top, and being free of cost made many of them far too abusable without consequence.
                            However if you are more interested in a game that lets you use most of the powers without risk or consequence for the most part I can see why V5 would not appeal as much as V20.

                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            but V5 really dropped the ball when it came to everything. "Oh, I'm a vampire, oh the tragedy of being a vampire" wasn't the horror of vampire, it was more "Oh, I'm a vampire, and the whole world is against me for being who I am, I am stuck in an oppressive system and I can only fight wrongs with wrongs"
                            V5 is so horribly self indulgent it lost sight of what it was meant to be. The Oppression and injustice that characterized the world has been so viciously undermined and replaced with an episode of self pity.
                            To me that isn't horror, the fight against oppression, against Hunters and injustice is certainly a core part of Vampire, but I wouldn't classify that as Horror.

                            There is a stronger focus on personal Horror in V5, but it is far from the only aspect of the game, it has just become more prominent than it used to be, as before it was mostly overshadowed.
                            The Curse is what the Vampire condition is referred to in the game, so the tragedy of vampiric existence is a central part of the game. Those who act like Monsters or who re-define the curse as a blessing, or the other myriad things, are all seeking justification for their tragic existence.

                            If you see it as being an episode of self pity then I'm afraid to say that the fault lies with the players and the storyteller. Me and my players have had fun exploring the personal horror angle, but that has only been a small part of our game. The themes you decide to explore are your own to choose.

                            I can see how it would not appeal if personal horror is not your thing, as the mechanics do support that as a part of the game without an option to remove it. But I think it is unfair to say that it removes any other theme from the game.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Fat Larry View Post


                              RPG.net was so exhaustively negative, about almost everything, that I had to delete my account and quite going there.

                              That's the LAST place I'd look for info on the quality of a book(or video game).
                              And where should you look for infos if not on the biggest Rpg site on the web?

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Trippy View Post

                                No it’s not. It succinctly makes the point that people are choosing to play with the benefits of having (superhuman) vampire powers, while downplaying the horror aspects of being a vampire.
                                EH, vampire is set up as a medium. Your powers are meant to be awesome but accompanying the monstrous horror and cost.


                                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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