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  • Vancouver: 20th Anniversary Edition

    Greetings everyone!

    I am starting to work on an updated version of the "WtA: Dark Alliance: Vancouver" setting, set pretty close to current day (probably a few years behind just to make paralleling RL history and WoD history easier when I'm so inclined). Still very much a work in progress; most of my focus so far has been on developing 20-25 years worth of "history" and figuring out how the political landscape might have changed in the mean time. Generally enjoying the canon/metaplot of cWoD, I'm interested in trying to portray a reasonable progression of events. The issue is that there's very little source material to work with; aside from the original book, there's just a handful of references to everything blowing up in the faces of the Garou scattered through a few books. So my first question would be whether or not anyone could point me to published material referencing Vancouver other than what's already cited on the fan wiki? In particular, there's reference to the local Garou losing their "urban caern," but I don't know if it every specifically says whether they mean the Great Caern, Smiling Buddha, or both? At the moment I'm imagining the surviving Glass Walkers have held onto it and turned it into a fortress.

    Of course, I'd also like to hear people's thoughts on what I've thought up for the setting so far. What little information Revised provides on the fallout of the Covenant collapsing seems to imply that the Garou were mostly pushed out of the city, and were contemplating their counterattack. My thought is that pretty much all of the 2000s consisted of a nasty-as-hell urban guerrilla war between the werewolves and vampires. Most of the hostilities finally start cooling off around the end of the decade, with both factions too worn out to keep actively pursuing conflict and retreating more into their respective territories.

    I imagine the vampires coming out of things better than the werewolves, for a number of reasons. The Garou are having to contended with the expanding Pentex presence in the city (centered on the Diefenbaker Casino of course). They are also dealing with a lot of nasty in-fighting that resulted from the loss of the Great Caern and the Compact of cooperation; the more warlike tribes clashing with the urban tribes over violent action against the human population now that there's no rules against it, while the Uktena and the Wendigo are PISSED and blame the "Wyrmcomers" as much or more than the Leeches for the loss of the Great Caern. All of this impedes their ability to work collectively to drive the Kindred out of the city. That said, this conflict has been HELL for Siegfried. The prestige that allowed him to maintain his independent Elysium-city was largely built on the reputation of the Covenant with the local Lupines; while the loss of the haven that Vancouver represented is upsetting, many elder vampires are quite happy to mock and deride Siegfried's "arrogance" now that the whole thing has blown up in his face. While most of Cainite society has been too occupied with other matters to capitalize on Siegfried's vulnerability, the Prince now has a group of Anarchs that have set up shop in the growing city of Surrey with no regard for his authority even within Vancouver. The combination of Lupine violence and Anarchs challenging his authority have driven the Prince even further into tyranny, with the ranks of his "Enforcers" expanding regularly, and them becoming less fearful of reprisal for abusing the authority he grants them. For the Kindred, Vancouver has become less of a safe haven for the affluent and more of a messy backwater to disappear into.

    The Garou situation started taking a bit of a turn for the better when the Bone Gnawers manage to rediscover one of the "lost caerns," which had belonged to septs wiped out by European disease and then lost to time. However, their local sept, the Underdogs, don't hold it for long before it is taken over by an alliance of other tribes led by the Shadow Lords, who managed to turn the failure of the Covenant into an opportunity to advance their own position over the local Silver Fangs. Leading a new multi-tribal sept centered around the recovered caern, they now have to bear the responsibility for fixing the mess that allowed them to seize power. Meanwhile, the Uktena also managed to find another of the lost caerns, forming a sept with the Wendigo and largely cutting themselves off from the other tribes. Finally, as noted above, the Glass Walkers (in my current version) have managed to hold onto a small urban caern in the downtown, and almost all of their focus is on keeping what they have. Whether or not the Bone Gnawers find a new caern for themselves again or not is a question I haven't answered yet.

    The big twist is the newest group to emerge. Known as "the Second Covenant," it is a small budding alliance of Garou and Kindred. Whereas the first Covenant was a treaty between the Garou Nation and all of the Kindred of Vancouver, the Second Covenant is closer to being a Garou sept that allows a limited form of membership to some Kindred. It began as the brainchild of a Child of Gaia (of course) who had learned of Kindred pursuit of the state of Golconda, and how some believe that achieving it would allow a Kindred to become human again. The Second Covenant was thus thought up as an option for kinfolk who had been turned into vampires, or others who might seek to escape from their condition and become human again. In return for providing a haven away from the machinations of the Jyhad, these Kindred would have to be willing to help the Garou in their struggle, whether that help come in the form of resources, information, or combat. Outside of a handful of Children of Gaia, the supporters of the Second Covenant are almost exclusively Bone Gnawers, with motivations far less benign and more practical. In their head, every vampire that can be converted into attacking the servants of the Wyrm is one less precious Garou life being put in danger; in truth, even the Children of Gaia supporting the Second Covenant believe that sacrificing oneself in service of Gaia provides a better shot at redemption for the Kindred than continuing their undead existence in the hope of a cure, but they're at least able to forgive that selfish weakness if the vampires can make themselves useful. Up until recently, there was pretty much no question among the other tribes that the Second Covenant was an irredeemably horrible idea, but that changed when an alliance between them, the Underdogs, and the Corporate Raiders (the local Glass Walker sept) managed to take down the Diefenbaker Casino a few years ago. While still generally reviled, and expected to be as much of a catastrophe as the first Covenant, the universal cries for their destruction have mostly faded.

    (One potential plot I'm imagining involves a Bone Gnawer who takes this idea further, having Pentex employees and other human servants of the Wyrm be turned into vampiric cannon fodder, brainwashed with the blood bond into becoming expendable shock troops. It began with the idea of stealing the Sabbat's tactic of mass-Embraces, but I felt that even a crazy Bone Gnawer would see that as being too risky.)

    Beyond general input and inquiring about sources, there is one particular technical question I would like some help addressing. The combat abilities of Garou and Cainites are not at all scaled against one another. Generally speaking, I'm fine with that, but there are at least one or two instances where the ability of a vampire to stand against a werewolf head-to-head matters to me. In particular, Siegfried; how well could the Prince of Vancouver do in a one-on-one against a Garou? It depends on the particular Garou of course, I'm just looking for input from people that have far more experience with the mechanics than I do to give me an idea.

    More generally, just how much physical augmentation via Disciplines does a Cainite need to hold their own against a typical werewolf, on top of Protean 2? There are Kindred described as regularly hunting Lupines, like Xaviar or Talley, but I can't be sure if the stats they have listed are actually up to par; alternatively, characters like Mithras (pre-diablerie) or Baba Yaga are way too far above average to use as the bar. I'm contemplating my own Cainite Garou Hunter as a possible antagonist, and some help figuring out the abilities he would realistically need would be appreciated. I'm not looking for someone capable of taking out an entire pack on their own, but would enjoy proving themselves against a Garou one-on-one after neutralizing their allies. There may be threads already addressing this question in detail, please feel free to just link me.

    Thanks for checking this out, everyone!


    P.S. I'm the masochist who chose to try and do a "crossover" rather than just focus on one game line, so any recommendations strictly along the lines of "don't do crossover" are a waste of everyone's time ^_^ By all means, tell me how brutally difficult and annoying it will be, but don't tell me not to do it. And similarly, I'm committed to a full/hard crossover, with Garou using Garou stats and Cainites using Cainite stats, not the watered-down versions presented for NPCs in each game line.

  • #2
    In the Montreal chapter of Becket Jyhad Diary (2017) there are two mentions o Vancouver. The city is still independent and ruled by Sigfried. And the characters could be in Montreal (as an adventure hook) selling an ancient weapon of the Ventrue, the Spear of Destiny, the Spear of Malediction or the Spear of something. The weapon is so dangerous that an auction could attract the atenttion of Dylan Bruce.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks Justycar! I didn't remember any reference to Vancouver in BJD, but I only read it once.

      Regarding Montreal, it's an option to consider. Even though I'm using V20 rules, I am trying to include some elements of the V5 metaplot (the parts I like, lol). So the Second Inquisition is a thing, and while I don't know the details I remember seeing mention recently that they hit Montreal pretty hard. As for Dylan Bruce, it's funny you should mention that, because infernalists are another option I'm considering for antagonists for the first part of the chronicle ^_^

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      • #4
        It has been ages since I read this book, but I remember liking it. I had to look this bit up on the White Wolf wiki, but Necross the Malkavian manages a large archive and library of kindred lore. It's status could be a plot point.

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        • #5
          Yeah, the Great Library is definitely one of the neat features of the setting. I haven't really thought of too much to do with it; I'm currently imagining that Necross and the Nosferatu are relatively unaffected by the chaos on the surface. The book describes the Uktena as being interested in the Library, but I dunno if I can imagine them leading an attack on it under the circumstances.

          Also, your comment about enjoying the setting reminded me! A good bit of my research into this setting (along with MANY other WoD related ideas) has involved digging through forum posts, and I remembered seeing some mention of the fact that "Dark Alliance" is actually rather unpopular. I was wondering if people who take issue with the Vancouver setting have something against it specifically, or if its more tied up to the kinds of problems people have with a lot of earlier material (messy NPC stats, excessive crossover, etc.)?

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          • #6
            I was thinking someone might rob, or torch, the library and try to blame some other faction. Maybe it is some desperate Tremere, maybe it is some Pentex formori, maybe it is some well-informed Second Inquisition operatives. But the finger gets pointed at the PCs.

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            • #7
              Do you want the Kuei-jin perspective?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
                Also, your comment about enjoying the setting reminded me! A good bit of my research into this setting (along with MANY other WoD related ideas) has involved digging through forum posts, and I remembered seeing some mention of the fact that "Dark Alliance" is actually rather unpopular. I was wondering if people who take issue with the Vancouver setting have something against it specifically, or if its more tied up to the kinds of problems people have with a lot of earlier material (messy NPC stats, excessive crossover, etc.)?
                In my opinion, being published under the werewolf brand maintained that book under the radar from most Vampire fans. And also, Under the blood red moon explores the crossover theme and Chicago is a more famous and central setting for the game line. For me, is like if pretending to promotion a new superhero (werewolf) they write a comic beating Batman (Chicago) and then other one fighting the new villain Mouseman. All the fans of Batman (Chicago) are going to buy the new comic, even without interest in the new hero. But with Mouseman... is a hard macht.

                With all the Rage across X happens the same. I have read every book of vampire I could, but my interest about werewolf is not so high. I only remember Baba yaga and Rustovich as important vampires of the setting. And I am sure there are more oblivious kindred characters, buy I barely remember (¿a samedi archon? ¿the Pentex board directive?) Well, I read Dark Alliance Vancouver 10 years ago, and I remember two names of characters by pure miracle.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Vancouver ain't a bad book per se but has an issue in that almost eveything on it revolves around the kindred-garou accord. There are little to no hooks in the book outside of it, with the Necross, the Nosferatu and the Library as the one noteworthy exception - beside the "there's a sleeping 4th gen that might have influenced things with its ginormous Animalism, to have kindred AND lupine chow aplenty when it does wake up" cliche, that is....). Even the asian outsider vampire is there because of the accord, that he's studying as a possible basis for his elders establishing a similar truce in whatever japanese city Yokoshi is from.

                  Take out that plotline and you have little to no story aand a bunch of NPCs that are either kind of bland, expies of Milwaukee's cast (Siegfried = Hrotulf; Derek = Mark Decker; Stalest & Necross while not that samey, also makes me think somewhat of Gracis & Esau, respectively) or both (seriously, same image for Kyle {Brujah ally/lover of Stalest} and Lyle {Ventrue eminence grise and minion of the sleeping 4th gen]?).

                  As is the book requires some tinkering on the STs part to make into a serious city scenario.

                  That said, that same issue gives the ST considerable freedom to rework according to your preferences without losing anything.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
                    Vancouver ain't a bad book per se but has an issue in that almost eveything on it revolves around the kindred-garou accord. There are little to no hooks in the book outside of it, with the Necross, the Nosferatu and the Library as the one noteworthy exception - beside the "there's a sleeping 4th gen that might have influenced things with its ginormous Animalism, to have kindred AND lupine chow aplenty when it does wake up" cliche, that is....). Even the asian outsider vampire is there because of the accord, that he's studying as a possible basis for his elders establishing a similar truce in whatever japanese city Yokoshi is from.
                    Which is weird, because as of later information, Gui Ren got along better with changers in the Beast Courts than the Kindred and Garou in the accord as presented. That's not exactly a high bar to clear, though.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                      Which is weird, because as of later information, Gui Ren got along better with changers in the Beast Courts than the Kindred and Garou in the accord as presented. That's not exactly a high bar to clear, though.
                      It's outdated, quite so considering Yokoshi and the Children of Susano-o were writen half a decade before there was a KotE - Gui Ren and Beast Courts did not exist in the game as such back then. What for me is one more reason not to mix Year of the Lotus related stuff with this particular book...



                      But anyway, on actually getting some use of the book instead of ignoring or disowning it like most later canon does, let me hit some bits and pieces that come to mind:

                      - Siegfried is an independent prince, with no direct affiliation to either Camarilla, Sabbat or any other more regionalized sects. No Justicars, Sabbat Inquisition or similar crap allowed (at least officially).

                      - The brazeness of this proclamation is somewhat backed by the city's (supposed) relative isolation and the fact that, while no Mithras, Siegfried is kind of close to Vitel's tier, when one accounts for both his age, generation and surviving to such an age while being hated by a significant chunk of his own clan for the destruction of his sire and other unmentioned shenanigans in the time of Rome's fall.

                      - That statement of his serves to support the idea of Vancouver as "political exile resort/retirement home" for kindred who want distance from the Jyhad (or sect authorities). So its population might be a peculiar mix philosopher-mystics who might be members or potential recruits of the Inconnu (who knows, he might have contacts with the Inconnu or at least princes like Guillaume), the escapees of a thousand intrigues across the world and ages seeking a place for a bit of respite and taking their bearings and the many Ronnie Biggs of kindred society, with maybe even an active (or supposedly destroyed) Anathema (or two) among them.

                      - The Covenant fits perfectly with his interests, as the Lupine presence acts as a major deterrent to any direct sect shenanigans or advance on his territory. Having them around to harass any kindred that come to the area - without him or a trusted associate vouching for them, that is - helps to reinforce his position and prestige.

                      - It also means Siegfried and his thugboys can overall keep their hands surprisingly clean, as he can point out any kindred that he comes to see as a potential threat to the status quo as a potential threat to the Garou too.

                      - This independence/neutrality makes the city an awesome place for exchange of all kinds of information (remember the "escapees of a thousand intrigues across the world and ages" bit?) or a springboard for innumerable intrigues of kindred with a good cache of long-distance agents and mind tricks.

                      - You don't get that old being too trusting - you can bet Siegfried will make some under the table deals with justicars, inquisition or any other sect powers if he feels one of the kindred locals has become too unruly or too much of an enemy magnet (like a badly hidden anathema) to be worth the trouble.

                      - Considering how much of his power & influence are dependent in balancing powers to keep the area around him controled and sedate, not to mention the city on itself is not all that populous, I believe Siegfried's control goes beyond the city proper and probably would cover Metro Vancouver as a whole. The details of how he keeps a lid on things and through whom - childer (his, Foster's, both?), centuries old associates, ghoul families, other could serve as basis for some fun plots on its own.



                      Now speaking of some of the plotlines that we do get in the book:

                      - Let the Covenant stand. Kindred x Garou warzones are dime-a-dozen since Milwaukee by Night & Under a Blood Red Moon. A major city with great untapped potential for awesomely weird crossover plots resulting from kindred & garou old and young having the opportunity to meet, debate and exchange gossip, lore and stuff in a (relatively) polite setting, one unique to it, why waste that?

                      - What if the Great Library was the remnant of something else and Necross not quite what the Nosferatu think it is?

                      - The classic/overdone "hidden sleeping methuselah playing all strings" subplot i would turn on its head - it's a rumor Siegfried himself has furtively spread, a misdirection move make anyone with something against him or his city a little less confident or more reticent to strike, due to the possibility of there being a bigger, badder endboss behind the, already old and powerful on its own, prince.

                      - Stalest as presented is a little cagier than your generic contender for prince, but not by much, what for me always felt like a horrid waste of a vampire supposedly older than Critias - if she were your generic power-hungry Ventrue she could take over the city of a weaker blooded elder instead of another methuselah of more potent blood. Anyway i would maintain her role as antagonist while inverting her agenda. She's an ancient that's 100% there to enjoy a leisure unlife and has no desire whatsoever for the headache of being prince - in fact she's scared of becoming prince because she's old (and rabidly paranoid) enough to take the rumors about the sleeping methuselah utterly seriously and her moves are actually attempts to track the hoary hungry monster before it awakens and devours them all.

                      - the Brujah Kyle and the Ventrue Lyle don't have "just" the same face and almost same name - they are the same vampire and almost nobody notices, because he abuses his mental disciplines that much. Except Stalest, who after decades of a relationship with Kyle came to notice her "clanmate" (she present suspects they might be neither) Lyle's uncanny resemblance and mannerisms and the sudden awareness of the shadowy figure playing with the city's kindred and stalking her has brought Stalest's recent bout of psycho-bender paranoia and intrigue. And how could she not be scared s**tless with what only she knows and sees?

                      (ok, it seems not satisfied with only inverting Stalest's motives i had to go and also twisted pretty much her whole dynamic with Kyle, Lyle and Siegfried it seems, being pushed into the throne by a stalker with a crush while messing up every step of the way because she's completely aware but too terrified not to misinterpret everything or directly confront the source of her troubles. Still undecided if i should or not make Kyle/Lyle personas of Necross )


                      Just a bunch of scattershot ideas here and there i'm throwing about, just to see if anything sticks. Hope it is of some use or at least you have fun with them.
                      Last edited by Baaldam; 01-09-2020, 11:11 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Thanks for the responses everyone!

                        @Lian: Are you referring to the Kuei-Jin presence/opinion of Vancouver, or of something more general? As someone noted above, the original Vancouver sourcebook was written before Kuei-Jin were a thing; there's reference to one Asian vampire who is a member of the "Bushi" bloodline (which I feel has been updated or removed in later editions). Whether or not to bring Kuei-Jin into the city wasn't something I had given serious consideration yet, but it's definitely a possibility

                        @Justycar: I'm not sure I understand your point; I *think* you're saying it's unpopular because it's the kind of setting that would be disliked Werewolf players, but it was published under their line instead of Vampire so most people who know about it don't like it?

                        @Baaldam: I can definitely agree that the book tells pretty much ONE story; mostly I like it because it gives me some background description of what Vancouver might look like through a Gothic Punk lens. I must admit I'm not especially familiar with other settings like Chicago By Night, more knowing factoids about particular characters I've researched than what the setting itself is like. As for the "hidden Methuselah," I agree it's a little cliche, but it's kinda like calling dragons cliche in Dungeons and Dragons xD Vicious old elders waiting to wake up and eat younger Kindred is a staple of the game. They also do provide one other potential plot hook: Victoria is apparently a death-trap of some kind, and I'm trying to decide if/what I want to do with that.

                        Unfortunately, my own plot progression does undermine a lot of the facts you've referenced; the metaplot itself declares the Covenant dead, and I've made it my business to accept the canon ruling and move forward rather than rewrite it. Atm the thing I'm torn on is whether Siegfried would be willing to support efforts to reestablish it, or if he'd hit a "kill them all" point after the first deal fell through. In the background details of the Covenant being negotiated, it's explicitly mentioned that if Siegfried was offered a deal that the rest of the Garou then turned down, he'd consider it a point of honour to exterminate them (a REALLY TALL ORDER, Jesus). But as you noted, he has to be aware that keeping peace with the Lupines has a lot to do with him being allowed to keep "his" city without trouble from the sects. I'm leaning towards pride and aggression because it justifies having his Humanity start to slip a little more and create tension with his lover Julie Foster.

                        My thought is that the city has something of a spectrum politically:

                        Vampires in conflict with Garou / Vampires mostly ignoring Garou / The Second Covenant / Garou mostly ignoring Vampires / Garou in conflict with Vampires

                        Siegfried's followers are currently at war with the Garou, though it's become more of a cold war than an open conflict atm.
                        The Anarchs who set up shop across the river ignore the Garou when they can, but defend themselves when attacked.
                        The Second Covenant supports a degree of cooperation and coexistence, but they're barely tolerated by the "moderate" factions and actively hunted by the warring ones.
                        Most of the urban tribes, along with the Wendigo and Uktena, tend to ignore the Kindred, focused on defending the territory they hold rather than trying to push the Leeches out.
                        The Shadow Lords are leading the other tribes in active hostility against the Kindred of the city, as well as the human population to a lesser extent.

                        Also, I don't know if I want to go that far, but the idea regarding the Keeper of the Faith/Library of the Forgotten is super cool! I've become a bit of a Tzimisce fanboy over the last couple years, so a reference to their lore like that makes me happy

                        P.S. I forgot to mention, I didn't explain too many details of the setting to the players, but I did ask where on the above spectrum they wanted their group to be located, and "Vampires are war with the Werewolves" was what the players chose. So now I'm trying to think of storylines I can run that aren't going to put a handful of rookie neonate players in the sights of a Garou war party xD I really don't like the idea of just using ST fiat to make sure they survive an encounter they'd have no way of surviving, so I'm trying to think of plot hooks that they can investigate until they have a bit more experience, or at least can not always be forced to accompany a band of NPCs with automatic weapons loaded with silver lol.
                        Last edited by Kharnov; 01-06-2020, 03:14 PM.

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                        • #13
                          What I was trying to explain is that Under a blood red moon and Dark Alliance Vancouver are crossover books confronting Vampires with the new heroes recently published (the garou). They tried to attract the Vampire fans to a new game with the garou beating a great character who is a bestseller (is a common trope in the comics). But where Under a Blood red moon could have the benefit of being played in a known city, with a few adventures published and shacking the Vampire status quo (killing Lodin and a long list of characters), Dark Alliance Vancouver was not so interesting to the Vampire fandom. And furthermore it was published under the werewolf label, so did not achieve the influence of any other By bight book. So, my opinion is, that Vancouver was unattractive for Vampire players.
                          Last edited by Justycar; 01-06-2020, 05:40 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Justycar View Post
                            What I was trying to explain is that Under a blood red moon and Dark Alliance Vancouver are crossover books confronting Vampires with the new heroes recently published (the garou). They tried to attract the Vampire fans to a new game with the garou beating a great character who is a bestseller (is a common trope in the comics). But where Under a Blood red moon could have the benefit of being played in a known city, with a few adventures published and shacking the Vampire status quo (killing Lodin and a long list of characters), Dark Alliance Vancouver was not so interesting to the Vampire fandom. And furthermore it was published under the werewolf label, so did not achieve the influence of any other By bight book. So, my opinion is, that Vancouver was unattractive for Vampire players.
                            I can see what you mean, but wouldn't say being published under the werewolf label had that much of a effect - it certainly did not hurt the sales of Rage Across Russia with either group of players. no matter how over the top and jarring the book might have been in comparison to Vampire city books. The issues were many and a little more complex, i would guess, at least from my own experience as one who actually owns the book.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Here's a few thoughts and ideas related to your answers, Kharnov:

                              Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
                              @Lian: Are you referring to the Kuei-Jin presence/opinion of Vancouver, or of something more general? As someone noted above, the original Vancouver sourcebook was written before Kuei-Jin were a thing; there's reference to one Asian vampire who is a member of the "Bushi" bloodline (which I feel has been updated or removed in later editions). Whether or not to bring Kuei-Jin into the city wasn't something I had given serious consideration yet, but it's definitely a possibility
                              Yokoshi is not a great character, being pretty much defined by his function as foreign observer and "super-honorable japanese guy" stereotype role. The Bushi's signature discipline as written is also very much a bag of stereotypes and i'll admit the main reason i still remember them is their mythic origin tale relating to the conflict between Amaterasu (sun goddess) & Susano-o (storm god & her younger mercurial brother), that i do like.
                              My suggestion is either completely ignore the Bushi and make some Kuei-Jin & their own agenda from scratch – a quite valid option in a metropolis where almost 20% of the population is of chinese descent, might be said – or use the myth of Children of Susano-o to make your bloodline/clan/sect of japanese kindred (for a twist in the weakness and myth i might be tempted to relate them to setites, of all things). Trying to shoehorn them into KotE is something i don't reccomend would probably be a disservice to both books, imho.

                              Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
                              @Baaldam: I can definitely agree that the book tells pretty much ONE story; mostly I like it because it gives me some background description of what Vancouver might look like through a Gothic Punk lens. I must admit I'm not especially familiar with other settings like Chicago By Night, more knowing factoids about particular characters I've researched than what the setting itself is like.
                              I do not dislike the story per se (as you can guess of my interest in a setting where the Covenant still stands), the lack of much else in the book with which to enrich it and make more of an actual chronicle is what bothers me – figures with character, their motivations, relations, likes & dislikes, things to paint a strong image of the NPC in the ST's head, so he can improvise and extrapolate on its own. Unfortunately I’m the first to admit DA:Vancouver is no goldmine in that subject.

                              Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
                              As for the "hidden Methuselah," I agree it's a little cliche, but it's kinda like calling dragons cliche in Dungeons and Dragons xD Vicious old elders waiting to wake up and eat younger Kindred is a staple of the game. They also do provide one other potential plot hook: Victoria is apparently a death-trap of some kind, and I'm trying to decide if/what I want to do with that.
                              To be clear, it’s the “Doctor No – no name, no story, no motivation, no personality, no stats – playing all strings" cliche I’m mostly against. Sleeping ancients can be cool – I love Menele, Helena, Mithras, Vitel/Sejanus, Mictlan, Tiamat and a number of others. They are quite fleshed out figures and yet don’t neuter the cast of their respective cities/books. Some nameless/statless nobody being “behind it all”… meh, can do without. A fake rumor about one distracting potential rivals – and leading a paranoid ally to cause trouble when she does find a secret ancient (that was actually doing nothing), that’s something more my taste. NPCs producing messes that the PCs may try to correct – or make even worse, because players, uh?

                              (Incidentally, reading bits here and there across the book i noticed that apparently Siegfried got lucky sometime between middle ages and contemporary times and while not outright hiding it, most kindred seem to have forgotten just how damn old he actually is. Petrodon, who's from the 1340s, seems to believe he would have no problem doing so, if not pressed by more urgent matters with the anarch movement in North America. My guess is that most kindred think he's about the same age as Julie Foster (1540s) or just a bit older, due to that ludricous "getting yourself into your clan's bad graces again by saving a pretty neonate from execution by fire and escape to a boat for the Americas" stunt of his, that's totally the kind of stupid impulsive thing a neonate or hot-headed ancilla would do)

                              Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
                              They also do provide one other potential plot hook: Victoria is apparently a death-trap of some kind, and I'm trying to decide if/what I want to do with that.
                              Oh yeah, Victoria Island. Too many years without reading the book made me conflate it with the 4th gen’s resting place, good to know i was wrong on that. Siegfried losing 3 lieutenants, that sounds like a bit too much at first glance, but then there’s also talk of a caern in the isle that supposedly lost power and disappeared, according to the oldest among the Wendigo (not Uktena, curiously), so, it might be something big indeed (maybe related to the “Priest of Gaia’s” immunity to truth/mind-reading gifts?). The "satanic capital of Canada" bit is funny and curious and, I guess based on a quick Google search, might relate to this, as i think the book hadn't been quite debunked back in the early '90s, when DA: Vancouver was written.

                              That's it for now, but you can rest assured i'll most definitely enter on the stuff you answered to me in my next post. See ya.
                              Last edited by Baaldam; 01-07-2020, 02:33 AM.

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