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  • #16
    Baaldam I honestly barely bothered to read Yokoshi pretty much for the reasons you've listed, haha; given that the Covenant was gone for like a decade in my setting, it's pretty easy to imagine him dead or gone. Tbh, a large part of the cast is being metaphorically or literally gutted in my version of events; among the Garou in particular, I've got maybe one or two survivors from the original setting (not an old character per se, but the youngest daughter of the original leader of the Get is gonna be an up-and-comer in the current day, she was still too young to have had her First Change in the 90s). Similarly, a lot of Cainites either got murdered during the conflict or ran once Vancouver stopped being a chill place to get away from it all.

    Again, I definitely agree that it just doesn't give you enough information to work with. Like, it seems WEIRD that there isn't a canon answer to "what is Siegfried's feeding limitation as a Ventrue?" Literally JUST NOW I realized that it makes sense only from the context of it being a "Werewolf" sourcebook; that kind of Machiavellian political detail just isn't relevant to the comparatively straightforward tale it's trying to tell. Also, your point about the Methuselah makes more sense in that context; I think there's an argument to be made for leaving options open to the Storyteller, but it is another case where a bit more information certainly couldn't hurt.

    And yeah, Siegfried is pretty old for a New World Prince; similarly, it's the only way that his background story of defending Vancouver against Lupines from its earliest days makes any sense at all. Which again leads to my question as to whether he'd actually stand a chance realistically. But I'd say it's probably less luck and more his penchant for keeping a low profile before becoming Prince of Vancouver; his diablerie of his Sire right at the beginning, and his rescue of Julie seem to be the only historically notable things he did before then, as being the subject of a Blood Hunt for so long kept him from getting too tied up in medieval Ventrue politics.

    Looking forward to your next response

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
      Baaldam I honestly barely bothered to read Yokoshi pretty much for the reasons you've listed, haha; given that the Covenant was gone for like a decade in my setting, it's pretty easy to imagine him dead or gone. Tbh, a large part of the cast is being metaphorically or literally gutted in my version of events; among the Garou in particular, I've got maybe one or two survivors from the original setting (not an old character per se, but the youngest daughter of the original leader of the Get is gonna be an up-and-comer in the current day, she was still too young to have had her First Change in the 90s). Similarly, a lot of Cainites either got murdered during the conflict or ran once Vancouver stopped being a chill place to get away from it all.
      My main suggestion is that you read pages 42-49, as they are the ones who give a clearer idea of what the Covenant was about, its history, terms and the context that lead to its formation. That and the overview on each of the tribes should be of great help in establishing your own updated status quo, what dirction each tribe took or not and so on. And i must say the ironic thing is - my overall impression is the Covenant breaking down is far more harmful to the Garou than it is to the prince of Vancouver (the kindred as a whole might be another matter, but no one ever said unlife is fair).

      Oh, the werewolves now attack the leeches. Some of them... sometimes.... as overall they have other priorities (Wyrm, enviroment-harming industries, Pentex & etc). It's bothersome because it makes things less reliable for Siegfried and he can't coordinate anymore with the Garou, but far from a disaster. Among other things because the Garou will still focus in limiting the undead arrivals into the city and that serves the prince's own interests anyway, as most kindred coming in groups will be Sabbat packs, anarch gangs, enterprising camarilla coteries.... exactly the kind of troublesome riff-raff the prince wants at a distance.

      Siegfried certainly lost some prestige, but i guess there would be far more noise from the Camarilla propaganda machine involved (you don't want other princes to start ignoring the Ivory Tower as the place to go for making this kind of international connections and favor-trading) than actual harm. For his power to actually deteriorate as you seem to imply it would have taken the Garou going massively into the warpath at least for some time - something that is quite possible but would probably be even more harmful from their side, for whom every life lost counts. Specially because the greater chunk of those losses would probably be among their young, where the greater proportion of the firebrands against the Covenant were. Or more simply, something happened to sent Siegfried in Torpor for a few years, what would harm immensely the image of stability he projects and in which his power and prestige hangs, not to mention give breathing for a number of kindred, inside & outside to start their power-grabbing shenanigans or intrigues. Possibly both, for maximum mess and communication problems.

      Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
      Again, I definitely agree that it just doesn't give you enough information to work with. Like, it seems WEIRD that there isn't a canon answer to "what is Siegfried's feeding limitation as a Ventrue?" Literally JUST NOW I realized that it makes sense only from the context of it being a "Werewolf" sourcebook; that kind of Machiavellian political detail just isn't relevant to the comparatively straightforward tale it's trying to tell. Also, your point about the Methuselah makes more sense in that context; I think there's an argument to be made for leaving options open to the Storyteller, but it is another case where a bit more information certainly couldn't hurt.
      Oh my, i completely missed that. Looks like i have gotten too used to Requiem's Ventrue in all those years.
      And i must disagree a bit - feeding restriction of the vampire prince is exactly the kind of tactical edge that should not be glossed over in a werewolf game, as politicking is most certainly not in the typical pack of young garou's list of priorities, shame on the writers. That said, there's mention of his favorite haven being a group of catacombs beneath the Vancouver General Hospital, so maybe his restriction focus on the sick or dying? Considering his background as a visigothic chieftain in what might have been the Battle of Adrianople, feeding on dying warriors or victims of violence would fit dramatically, while being quite the headache in a metropolis he actively takes the effort to keep peaceful.

      Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
      And yeah, Siegfried is pretty old for a New World Prince; similarly, it's the only way that his background story of defending Vancouver against Lupines from its earliest days makes any sense at all.
      Oh yeah, indeed. that said, it wouldn't take a very old vampire to have been in the city "from its earliest nights", considering the area's settlement started in the 1850s, Vancouver is a young metropolis even by american standards.

      Anyway, after some reading of his story and other bits, i guess one could arrange knowledge of his age in the following way.

      - Most kindred who have heard of the prince know he has been followed the city's growth from its earliest nights in the 1850s, meaning his fondness for it goes beyond preservation of a domain.

      - Those more personally familiar with him and his seneschal, the (rogue) Tremere Julie Foster - and not many are, as more than a few have mistaken her for a ghoul secretary of the prince - might have heard of how the Siegfried got himself in trouble with his London brethen for rescuing her from burning at the stake back in the 1540s, also when they abandoned Europe to never look back.

      - Some older kindred, from a time when the kindred were much less numerous and consequently that much more notable, might actually recollect tales his joining the ranks of the clan sometime back in the 1200s, though even then he was something of an outsider, striking a solid friendship with a rogue clanmate, the old barbarian Hrothulf.

      - But a few hoary monsters might point out that's the time the Ventrue had forgotten his crimes against the clan, the betrayal and sacking of roman lands with his visigothic followers & descendants and kinslaying of the venerable elder from the time he was brought into endless night.

      Four steps, not bad almost one per success.


      Well, as you can guess from some of the links brought up in the "timeline" of sorts i did above, i suspect Siegfried's crimes the Ventrue spent nearly nine centuries hunting him for involved a little more than diablerizing the respectable elder (that happened to be his sire). Siegfried was a chieftain at the time of his embrace and diablerized his (respected) roman sire in a bout of frenzy. Would you run away from your people with the elder's clanmates on your heels - or keep pounding on the romans they were already fighting from the helm, guiding and shaping them with your new-gained supernatural charisma & mind control powers? Personally, i would guess the second, specially considering the time of Siegfried's embrace implies he was in the Battle of Adrianople (378 AD), while the visigoths start to be name-dropped as such around the time of Alaric I, from 400s onwards. If Siegfried's early unlife indeed followed the formation, growth and eventual fall of the visigoths as a power (what would be good sense for a number of emotional and practical reasons), it would imply messing up with roman kindred for about more than 3 centuries (from 378 to about 711AD). If so, i would guess not only his clanmates, but a number of iberian Lasombra might "remember him fondly" (at least until they lost themselves in a lot of other stuff through the middle ages).

      It could also mean he left (more than) a few - now probably methuselah too, depending on how many naps did they take or not through the ages - childer here and there in these "early centuries of savage adventuring" of his he avoids talking about.

      Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
      Which again leads to my question as to whether he'd actually stand a chance realistically. But I'd say it's probably less luck and more his penchant for keeping a low profile before becoming Prince of Vancouver; his diablerie of his Sire right at the beginning, and his rescue of Julie seem to be the only historically notable things he did before then, as being the subject of a Blood Hunt for so long kept him from getting too tied up in medieval Ventrue politics.

      Looking forward to your next response
      About Siegfried chances - well, it's complicated. Garou are individually more powerful and intertribal strife notwithstanding, more cooperative as a group, so at first glance they are at an advantage on quality. That said, kindred have a number of indirect advantages in the form of the embrace and ghouling, two great tools to acquire reserves. Obviously being too free with either creates its own complications, but it is a major strategic edge on the Lupines, that cannot recoup their losses, be they Garou or kinfolk, so easily.

      So i would say the Garou are much worse for wear now, in their divided and depopulated post-Covenant status and the more militant packs posibly scrambling for Garou or spirit allies anywhere they can find them. Things can only be that much worse if most of the old leadership is now dead and gone, the more powerful gifts and rituals going away with them.

      Overall i would say that yes, Siegfried might have a chance to win against local Lupines in a total war scenario, in fact much better chances than he would have at the time of the book's writing, back in '93.

      The real issue is if he wants to do so, as actually exterminating the Garou would mean responsability for the chore of patrolling the domains borders against kindred invaders would become completely his, while at present it is completely their problem. Remember, the Lupines presence is a deterrent to the entrance of any kindred without contacts in Vancouver's court and that is a good thing for Siegfried's rule, in fact one of the major benefits of the covenant for him as ruler. So in normal circunstances Siegfried would recognize that either reforging the Covenant or preserving it in limited form with some tribes to the detriment of others, would be very politically advantageous for him.

      But that is supposing he was active and ok the whole time. A Siegfried that spent about a decade in torpor while his city frayed at the seams and now must scramble to update himself on who iss who and clean up the house at the same time might be more impatient and agressive, even more so if the torpor came through the strike of a lupine pack, in those circunstances - and i doubt some of the things you described, like the anarchs settling on a city on the other side of the river would be possible without Siegfried out of the picture for at least a few years - he might be much more amenable to total war.
      Last edited by Baaldam; 01-07-2020, 12:34 PM.

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      • #18
        In the Conventionbook: Syndicate (2nd edition), there's a chantry of the mages of Syndicate in Vancouver. They are the responsibles of the conquest of the Caern of the Glass Walkers in the city and the assasination of Roger Daly.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Magus View Post
          In the Conventionbook: Syndicate (2nd edition), there's a chantry of the mages of Syndicate in Vancouver. They are the responsibles of the conquest of the Caern of the Glass Walkers in the city and the assasination of Roger Daly.
          That actually makes a lot of sense and the killing of Roger Daly would make the Compact that much more vulnerable, as he was instrumental in making their overall strategy work. Even more serious in that Vancouver's Glass Walkers are particularly top-heavy (except for two youngsters, one of them Daly's nephew) being all in the late 30s to 50s, back in the 90s.

          Even if Daly's sucessor is a strong one, an ongoing conflict between the Corporate Raiders' Sept and a Syndicate cabal could only mean trouble, as at best it would mean they would have to divert resources from watching out for wyrm-touched corporations, making the region as a whole more vulnerable to such infiltration (that said, it's a problem that would serve to occupy the glory-seeking firebrands of the other tribes). And would change in nothing the sorry reality that the Corporate Raiders' Sept is a band of old farts living on borrowed time and with no young Glass walkers to take on their (unrecognized but inncredibily important) work when any of them does hit the bucket.

          Oh yeah, that starts to paints a very good image of how might things go to the crapper....
          Last edited by Baaldam; 01-08-2020, 06:49 AM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Baaldam View Post

            My main suggestion is that you read pages 42-49, as they are the ones who give a clearer idea of what the Covenant was about, its history, terms and the context that lead to its formation. That and the overview on each of the tribes should be of great help in establishing your own updated status quo, what dirction each tribe took or not and so on. And i must say the ironic thing is - my overall impression is the Covenant breaking down is far more harmful to the Garou than it is to the prince of Vancouver (the kindred as a whole might be another matter, but no one ever said unlife is fair).

            Oh, the werewolves now attack the leeches. Some of them... sometimes.... as overall they have other priorities (Wyrm, enviroment-harming industries, Pentex & etc). It's bothersome because it makes things less reliable for Siegfried and he can't coordinate anymore with the Garou, but far from a disaster. Among other things because the Garou will still focus in limiting the undead arrivals into the city and that serves the prince's own interests anyway, as most kindred coming in groups will be Sabbat packs, anarch gangs, enterprising camarilla coteries.... exactly the kind of troublesome riff-raff the prince wants at a distance.

            Siegfried certainly lost some prestige, but i guess there would be far more noise from the Camarilla propaganda machine involved (you don't want other princes to start ignoring the Ivory Tower as the place to go for making this kind of international connections and favor-trading) than actual harm. For his power to actually deteriorate as you seem to imply it would have taken the Garou going massively into the warpath at least for some time - something that is quite possible but would probably be even more harmful from their side, for whom every life lost counts. Specially because the greater chunk of those losses would probably be among their young, where the greater proportion of the firebrands against the Covenant were. Or more simply, something happened to sent Siegfried in Torpor for a few years, what would harm immensely the image of stability he projects and in which his power and prestige hangs, not to mention give breathing for a number of kindred, inside & outside to start their power-grabbing shenanigans or intrigues. Possibly both, for maximum mess and communication problems.
            Most of what you've said here is basically how my version of the scenario went down The various tribes of Garou had different ideas of what the loss of the Great Caern of cooperation and the end of the Compact based around it meant; the urban tribes still favoured keeping the peace with humans and preventing resource exploitation through less violent means, while the more aggressive tribes wanted to start attacking logging companies, or murdering humans wholesale in extreme cases (*cough*REDTALONS*cough*), and the "Pure Tribes" were so royally pissed over losing the Great Caern that THEY had kept safe for centuries that only a small handful of the Uktena will even talk to the other tribes anymore. And yes, the fact that Pentex is back on the board causing trouble also forces the Garou to split their attention and fight their war on yet another front. And all of this massively hampers their ability to cooperate in the effort of keeping other vampires from getting into Vancouver.

            You're also right that much of Siegfried's diminished power is more symbolic than literal in this instance; much of it is just Camarilla propaganda and rumour-mongering. But while you're right that Petrodon is likely wrong about it being easy for him to deal with Siegfried if he wanted to, the Camarilla could get the job done if they decided it was worth it. For the time being, they have too many other fish to fry, but if he can't provide some incentive not to, there's no reason for them not to topple him just to demonstrate Camarilla supremacy even if they don't care much about replacing him due to the Lupine presence. But much of it comes down to the simple fact that Vancouver has a lot more Garou than Cainites, and the average Cainite is no match for the average Garou, who almost always run in packs. Siegfried could absolutely keep control of his city with the powers and resources available to him, but he couldn't keep it the sweet little spot to just get away from everything that it used to be when a pack of Lupines might light your haven on fire or rip you to pieces in a back alley if you get unlucky. But the resources that he now needs to invest into actively controlling the Lupine threat means he has less resources to direct against, say, a group of Anarchs that manage to move into town on the other side of the Fraser River. Not having the Covenant does hurt the Garou more, but having to fight against them again is still a considerable burden for Siegfried.

            Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
            Oh my, i completely missed that. Looks like i have gotten too used to Requiem's Ventrue in all those years.
            And i must disagree a bit - feeding restriction of the vampire prince is exactly the kind of tactical edge that should not be glossed over in a werewolf game, as politicking is most certainly not in the typical pack of young garou's list of priorities, shame on the writers. That said, there's mention of his favorite haven being a group of catacombs beneath the Vancouver General Hospital, so maybe his restriction focus on the sick or dying? Considering his background as a visigothic chieftain in what might have been the Battle of Adrianople, feeding on dying warriors or victims of violence would fit dramatically, while being quite the headache in a metropolis he actively takes the effort to keep peaceful.



            Oh yeah, indeed. that said, it wouldn't take a very old vampire to have been in the city "from its earliest nights", considering the area's settlement started in the 1850s, Vancouver is a young metropolis even by american standards.

            Anyway, after some reading of his story and other bits, i guess one could arrange knowledge of his age in the following way.

            - Most kindred who have heard of the prince know he has been followed the city's growth from its earliest nights in the 1850s, meaning his fondness for it goes beyond preservation of a domain.

            - Those more personally familiar with him and his seneschal, the (rogue) Tremere Julie Foster - and not many are, as more than a few have mistaken her for a ghoul secretary of the prince - might have heard of how the Siegfried got himself in trouble with his London brethen for rescuing her from burning at the stake back in the 1540s, also when they abandoned Europe to never look back.

            - Some older kindred, from a time when the kindred were much less numerous and consequently that much more notable, might actually recollect tales his joining the ranks of the clan sometime back in the 1200s, though even then he was something of an outsider, striking a solid friendship with a rogue clanmate, the old barbarian Hrothulf.

            - But a few hoary monsters might point out that's the time the Ventrue had forgotten his crimes against the clan, the betrayal and sacking of roman lands with his visigothic followers & descendants and kinslaying of the venerable elder from the time he was brought into endless night.

            Four steps, not bad almost one per success.


            Well, as you can guess from some of the links brought up in the "timeline" of sorts i did above, i suspect Siegfried's crimes the Ventrue spent nearly nine centuries hunting him for involved a little more than diablerizing the respectable elder (that happened to be his sire). Siegfried was a chieftain at the time of his embrace and diablerized his (respected) roman sire in a bout of frenzy. Would you run away from your people with the elder's clanmates on your heels - or keep pounding on the romans they were already fighting from the helm, guiding and shaping them with your new-gained supernatural charisma & mind control powers? Personally, i would guess the second, specially considering the time of Siegfried's embrace implies he was in the Battle of Adrianople (378 AD), while the visigoths start to be name-dropped as such around the time of Alaric I, from 400s onwards. If Siegfried's early unlife indeed followed the formation, growth and eventual fall of the visigoths as a power (what would be good sense for a number of emotional and practical reasons), it would imply messing up with roman kindred for about more than 3 centuries (from 378 to about 711AD). If so, i would guess not only his clanmates, but a number of iberian Lasombra might "remember him fondly" (at least until they lost themselves in a lot of other stuff through the middle ages).

            It could also mean he left (more than) a few - now probably methuselah too, depending on how many naps did they take or not through the ages - childer here and there in these "early centuries of savage adventuring" of his he avoids talking about.

            About Siegfried chances - well, it's complicated. Garou are individually more powerful and intertribal strife notwithstanding, more cooperative as a group, so at first glance they are at an advantage on quality. That said, kindred have a number of indirect advantages in the form of the embrace and ghouling, two great tools to acquire reserves. Obviously being too free with either creates its own complications, but it is a major strategic edge on the Lupines, that cannot recoup their losses, be they Garou or kinfolk, so easily.
            I think that's an AMAZING idea for his feeding restriction, I am quite possibly going to use that, with your permission! Fair enough about not including it being a general failure; shame DA: Vancouver, shame. I also really like that excellent list of successes you've provided for someone investigating the Prince! The idea that his crimes also included going to war against the Roman Ventrue for the sake of his mortal kin even after the Embrace is interesting, but I'll need to think about it. The question of childer is also an interesting one, which would definitely tie in to potential conflicts with his Roman brethren.

            Oh yes, my commentary on defending Vancouver from its origin has nothing to do with how old the city is. It has to do with what would have been involved in doing it before the turn of the 20th century, when he wouldn't have had a large population to sustain a horde of vampiric and ghoul retainers, but would have to be largely relying on his own personal strength; IIRC there's a source that talks about him literally patrolling the edge of town at night. All those advantages you've listed are precisely why I imagine him being able to hold his ground against the Garou despite being outnumbered, but it does put him into a bit of a siege mentality. But back then, he would have been without many followers, without modern weapons and relatively limited access to silver. My questions about Siegfried's chances have more to do about his raw individual power than the wider resources he can muster, because his story seems to require some periods where it was necessary, and it seems like it might be necessary in the context of my setting; in essence, can Siegfried go full Victor-from-Underworld on a Garou? lol

            Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
            So i would say the Garou are much worse for wear now, in their divided and depopulated post-Covenant status and the more militant packs posibly scrambling for Garou or spirit allies anywhere they can find them. Things can only be that much worse if most of the old leadership is now dead and gone, the more powerful gifts and rituals going away with them.

            Overall i would say that yes, Siegfried might have a chance to win against local Lupines in a total war scenario, in fact much better chances than he would have at the time of the book's writing, back in '93.

            The real issue is if he wants to do so, as actually exterminating the Garou would mean responsability for the chore of patrolling the domains borders against kindred invaders would become completely his, while at present it is completely their problem. Remember, the Lupines presence is a deterrent to the entrance of any kindred without contacts in Vancouver's court and that is a good thing for Siegfried's rule, in fact one of the major benefits of the covenant for him as ruler. So in normal circunstances Siegfried would recognize that either reforging the Covenant or preserving it in limited form with some tribes to the detriment of others, would be very politically advantageous for him.

            But that is supposing he was active and ok the whole time. A Siegfried that spent about a decade in torpor while his city frayed at the seams and now must scramble to update himself on who iss who and clean up the house at the same time might be more impatient and agressive, even more so if the torpor came through the strike of a lupine pack, in those circunstances - and i doubt some of the things you described, like the anarchs settling on a city on the other side of the river would be possible without Siegfried out of the picture for at least a few years - he might be much more amenable to total war.
            I honestly agree that actively pursuing peace with the Garou again would make the most sense for Siegfried, but the text of DA: Vancouver seems to suggest that he has issues with his pride that can get in the way of pragmatism, which also fits your earlier comments about his neonate-like silliness helping mislead people about how old he really is. It comments on how when Roger Daly presented to deal to Necross to take to Siegfried, Necross warned that they would only have one shot, because Siegfried would never make peace again if the werewolves even chose to snub the deal after he'd put his stamp of approval on it; if what sounds like a typical diplomatic flub would put him on the warpath, it makes me wonder if he'd be willing to make peace with people who tore up "his city" for ten years, no matter how practical it might be?

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            • #21
              I forget - did Siegfried permit Tremere into the city?

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              • #22
                Yes, but the rules against clans and sects organizing basically prevent them from having any kind of established foothold; it tends to be individuals who have heard of the Great Library and want to try and get access. The exception of course being Julie Foster, who's effectively a runaway with no clan loyalties; she still manages to have fully developed Thaumaturgy skills between some lessons from Siegfried and then studies in the Great Library, the latter bit especially being one I find fascinating but also puzzling. Questions around the relationship that Siegfried and Julie have with Necross and the Great Library is one area I feel they didn't do a good job of being clear; it's sometimes treated as a very obscure secret, other times something that a reasonable amount of people know about and can access.

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                • #23
                  Julie Foster might be targeted for recruitment by one faction of the remaining Tremere (Carna, Karl, the Anarch Tremere) after the fall of Vienna.

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                  • #24
                    An interesting idea for sure, though in practice I'd pity whoever tried to propose it thoughtlessly; it could be seen as a blatant breach of Siegfried's law against Kindred politics in his city being proposed to his most devoted follower. Maybe after someone died horribly discovering this reality, they might come up with a plan to take her by force so they can employ more forceful "persuasion."

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
                      Julie Foster might be targeted for recruitment by one faction of the remaining Tremere (Carna, Karl, the Anarch Tremere) after the fall of Vienna.

                      It might be possible, but considering the near half a millenium of distance from her clan and her own lover's laws against clan gatherings and such, a really foolhardy path to pursue.

                      That said, trying to make a contact out of her, to exchange lore, gossip & stuff, might be less risky, more viable and maybe even interest her a little in the doings of her long estranged clanmates. Who knows, she might even get a good word with the Great Library wardens' on your name if you're really lucky.
                      Last edited by Baaldam; 01-08-2020, 01:57 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        In fact he could make a pretty good factor behind the end of a good chunk of the tribal leadership, by pointing out failures on their part such as the mystery of Victoria Island, making a challenge that could turn into either public shame or death trap, depending on their confronting or not of the matter. And newfound awareness of Victoria Island could become another drain on attention/resources, for that matter.

                        Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
                        You're also right that much of Siegfried's diminished power is more symbolic than literal in this instance; much of it is just Camarilla propaganda and rumour-mongering. But while you're right that Petrodon is likely wrong about it being easy for him to deal with Siegfried if he wanted to, the Camarilla could get the job done if they decided it was worth it. For the time being, they have too many other fish to fry, but if he can't provide some incentive not to, there's no reason for them not to topple him just to demonstrate Camarilla supremacy even if they don't care much about replacing him due to the Lupine presence. But much of it comes down to the simple fact that Vancouver has a lot more Garou than Cainites, and the average Cainite is no match for the average Garou, who almost always run in packs. Siegfried could absolutely keep control of his city with the powers and resources available to him, but he couldn't keep it the sweet little spot to just get away from everything that it used to be when a pack of Lupines might light your haven on fire or rip you to pieces in a back alley if you get unlucky. But the resources that he now needs to invest into actively controlling the Lupine threat means he has less resources to direct against, say, a group of Anarchs that manage to move into town on the other side of the Fraser River. Not having the Covenant does hurt the Garou more, but having to fight against them again is still a considerable burden for Siegfried.
                        About the Camarilla taking over Vancouver, yes it could certainly be done - but it would take at least as much effort as recovering or taking an Anarch or Sabbat-dominated city, that would be definite priorities of any sensible Justicar, specially because Siegfried shows no signs of trying to advance a cause beyond the borders of his domain, unlike the previous groups. Petrodon himselm - who might not even exist anymore, as i think his destruction is cited in Revised and V5 both - only really cared mostly because he considered it close to his "home base" in Seattle for his ego to ignore.

                        And yeah i must agree, Siegfried might be quite pressured by some concerted agression on the part of the Garou depending on the tribes involved, if i remember the numbers of Garou in the Vancouver area right, even if a bunch of them are more precisely speaking peppered out across the whole state. While now they have even more priorities with the peace gone, it takes just a few packs of persistent knuckleheads to make things bothersome for him, specially if they are cunning or luck out.

                        Supposing numbers are mostly the same, that is. It has been 20+ years since the book came out, age, the grind of the war against the Wyrm and brewing internecine conflict take their toll and Garou have a much harder time recouping losses than the kindred or even mundane humanity. There's also the matter that those tribes in the same general camps in relation to the Covenant not exactly see eye to eye and work well together (Shadow Lords or Red Talons and pretty much everybody else, for example).

                        Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
                        I think that's an AMAZING idea for his feeding restriction, I am quite possibly going to use that, with your permission! Fair enough about not including it being a general failure; shame DA: Vancouver, shame. I also really like that excellent list of successes you've provided for someone investigating the Prince! The idea that his crimes also included going to war against the Roman Ventrue for the sake of his mortal kin even after the Embrace is interesting, but I'll need to think about it. The question of childer is also an interesting one, which would definitely tie in to potential conflicts with his Roman brethren.
                        Good that you liked, then feel free to go for it.

                        About the "Siegfried facts" progression, i think you could add "a local Ventrue called Siegfried took over the, up to that point utterly rulerless, domain sometime in the 1940s, to preserve order in what was at the time becoming a progressively more unruly city due to anarchs and a number of other factions" as one success sample, to round out 5 levels with the others.

                        Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
                        Oh yes, my commentary on defending Vancouver from its origin has nothing to do with how old the city is. It has to do with what would have been involved in doing it before the turn of the 20th century, when he wouldn't have had a large population to sustain a horde of vampiric and ghoul retainers, but would have to be largely relying on his own personal strength; IIRC there's a source that talks about him literally patrolling the edge of town at night. All those advantages you've listed are precisely why I imagine him being able to hold his ground against the Garou despite being outnumbered, but it does put him into a bit of a siege mentality. But back then, he would have been without many followers, without modern weapons and relatively limited access to silver. My questions about Siegfried's chances have more to do about his raw individual power than the wider resources he can muster, because his story seems to require some periods where it was necessary, and it seems like it might be necessary in the context of my setting; in essence, can Siegfried go full Victor-from-Underworld on a Garou? lol
                        The fact he has no levels in Potence would seem to indicate that, physical atributes and skills notwithstanding, he's not exactly a fan of mano-a-mano and more of a "live to fight(ambush) another day", but based on his stats in the book, yeah, he can definitely go "full Victor" if need be. In more ways than the Garou might expect, considering he has Thaumaturgy, thought not at anything close to his ludricous (and undescribed) Presence and Dominate elder powers.

                        Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
                        I honestly agree that actively pursuing peace with the Garou again would make the most sense for Siegfried, but the text of DA: Vancouver seems to suggest that he has issues with his pride that can get in the way of pragmatism, which also fits your earlier comments about his neonate-like silliness helping mislead people about how old he really is. It comments on how when Roger Daly presented to deal to Necross to take to Siegfried, Necross warned that they would only have one shot, because Siegfried would never make peace again if the werewolves even chose to snub the deal after he'd put his stamp of approval on it; if what sounds like a typical diplomatic flub would put him on the warpath, it makes me wonder if he'd be willing to make peace with people who tore up "his city" for ten years, no matter how practical it might be?
                        One thing to remember about Necross is that, as indicated by the description of the "Siegfried personality", his perception and understanding can be at the same time frigteningly insightful but sometimes terribly flawed, so a ST has considerable leeway in deciding for itself how much mileage to give or not to the ancient's view of facts. It could be based as much in centuries or millenia of personal experience with more stereotypical egocentric ventrue princes - what Siegfried may look like, but in a number of ways is not quite (remember, the spent almost a century as "just another local elder" before actually claiming Praxis over the rulerless city, even though he was around from the beginning).

                        Way i see it, if Siegfried was active for the whole time since DAl: Vancouver, the overall status quo you describe in your chronicle would be quite improbable, not to say impossible, as he's experienced and ruthless enough to have done a bunch of underhanded stuff (*cof* *cof* strategic assassination of some and mind-bending of certain kinfolk to feed misinformation to allies or enemies *cof* *cof*) to help keep the old Garou leadership in place, or start to mess with some of the militant tribes before they strike, if the Covenant starts to look untenable due to their internal strife. Doubly so with the anarchs encroaching into the Greater Vancouver area.

                        Ergo, something - like a well-placed bombing of a haven, ambush by an ambitious pack of Garou or both and more - happened to take him out of the picture for at least a few years and let things "smothly degrade" for the region in the power vacuum (Stalest attempts at filling his shoes further compounding problems optional).
                        For a bonus (for the ST who wants to play with such a conflict, that is) a Siegfried "just" returned from torpor would be far from amused and far less level-headed or tolerant of everybody'sshenanigans, not to mention, quite resentful of the Garou if he felt in some way betrayed by them, like if his torpor came from a pack's ambush, even moreif he had some reason to blame either the old leadership (Lukasz or some other recognizable figure was involved) or the new one (Gutooth is now one of those in power).

                        My thoughts in ssome of the stuff you brought up - a little more haphazard than i would prefer, but at least it highlighted some turbid spots that needed adressing, i hope.
                        Last edited by Baaldam; 01-09-2020, 08:49 AM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
                          It might be possible, but considering the near half a millenium of distance from her clan and her own lover's laws against clan gatherings and such, a really foolhardy path to pursue.
                          There is a lot of drama possibilities, or game story possibilities, in someone going after what is clearly a bad idea.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

                            There is a lot of drama possibilities, or game story possibilities, in someone going after what is clearly a bad idea.

                            Yeah, no denying that - but knowing when to fold to bet your chips at a slightly luckier hand is important too.

                            Baby steps, baby steps - talking shop and exchanging gossip one-on-one are good tools of politics without being political per se.
                            Everything inoffensive.... as long as the prince doesn't get in his head you might be flirting with his girlfriend-seneschal at least.

                            What as a aside made me remember of a ST that had a funny houserule for exactly that - if a very skilled PC spent a number of scenes with one NPC in particular, the ST would make a roll to see if an associate of either would notice. Depending on the result, the associate might suspect a relationship is budding (actual romance or not notwithstanding), reaction varying depending on the associate's relation to either PC or NPC. So half "i ship it", half "green-eyed monster", depending on the PC's (bad) luck.

                            As an aside, found things in the wiki, that help give a clearer image of the canon events.
                            Last edited by Baaldam; 01-10-2020, 09:31 AM.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
                              In fact he could make a pretty good factor behind the end of a good chunk of the tribal leadership, by pointing out failures on their part such as the mystery of Victoria Island, making a challenge that could turn into either public shame or death trap, depending on their confronting or not of the matter. And newfound awareness of Victoria Island could become another drain on attention/resources, for that matter.



                              About the Camarilla taking over Vancouver, yes it could certainly be done - but it would take at least as much effort as recovering or taking an Anarch or Sabbat-dominated city, that would be definite priorities of any sensible Justicar, specially because Siegfried shows no signs of trying to advance a cause beyond the borders of his domain, unlike the previous groups. Petrodon himselm - who might not even exist anymore, as i think his destruction is cited in Revised and V5 both - only really cared mostly because he considered it close to his "home base" in Seattle for his ego to ignore.

                              And yeah i must agree, Siegfried might be quite pressured by some concerted agression on the part of the Garou depending on the tribes involved, if i remember the numbers of Garou in the Vancouver area right, even if a bunch of them are more precisely speaking peppered out across the whole state. While now they have even more priorities with the peace gone, it takes just a few packs of persistent knuckleheads to make things bothersome for him, specially if they are cunning or luck out.

                              Supposing numbers are mostly the same, that is. It has been 20+ years since the book came out, age, the grind of the war against the Wyrm and brewing internecine conflict take their toll and Garou have a much harder time recouping losses than the kindred or even mundane humanity. There's also the matter that those tribes in the same general camps in relation to the Covenant not exactly see eye to eye and work well together (Shadow Lords or Red Talons and pretty much everybody else, for example).
                              Good that you liked, then feel free to go for it.

                              About the "Siegfried facts" progression, i think you could add "a local Ventrue called Siegfried took over the, up to that point utterly rulerless, domain sometime in the 1940s, to preserve order in what was at the time becoming a progressively more unruly city due to anarchs and a number of other factions" as one success sample, to round out 5 levels with the others.



                              The fact he has no levels in Potence would seem to indicate that, physical atributes and skills notwithstanding, he's not exactly a fan of mano-a-mano and more of a "live to fight(ambush) another day", but based on his stats in the book, yeah, he can definitely go "full Victor" if need be. In more ways than the Garou might expect, considering he has Thaumaturgy, thought not at anything close to his ludricous (and undescribed) Presence and Dominate elder powers.



                              One thing to remember about Necross is that, as indicated by the description of the "Siegfried personality", his perception and understanding can be at the same time frigteningly insightful but sometimes terribly flawed, so a ST has considerable leeway in deciding for itself how much mileage to give or not to the ancient's view of facts. It could be based as much in centuries or millenia of personal experience with more stereotypical egocentric ventrue princes - what Siegfried may look like, but in a number of ways is not quite (remember, the spent almost a century as "just another local elder" before actually claiming Praxis over the rulerless city, even though he was around from the beginning).

                              Way i see it, if Siegfried was active for the whole time since DAl: Vancouver, the overall status quo you describe in your chronicle would be quite improbable, not to say impossible, as he's experienced and ruthless enough to have done a bunch of underhanded stuff (*cof* *cof* strategic assassination of some and mind-bending of certain kinfolk to feed misinformation to allies or enemies *cof* *cof*) to help keep the old Garou leadership in place, or start to mess with some of the militant tribes before they strike, if the Covenant starts to look untenable due to their internal strife. Doubly so with the anarchs encroaching into the Greater Vancouver area.

                              Ergo, something - like a well-placed bombing of a haven, ambush by an ambitious pack of Garou or both and more - happened to take him out of the picture for at least a few years and let things "smothly degrade" for the region in the power vacuum (Stalest attempts at filling his shoes further compounding problems optional).
                              For a bonus (for the ST who wants to play with such a conflict, that is) a Siegfried "just" returned from torpor would be far from amused and far less level-headed or tolerant of everybody'sshenanigans, not to mention, quite resentful of the Garou if he felt in some way betrayed by them, like if his torpor came from a pack's ambush, even moreif he had some reason to blame either the old leadership (Lukasz or some other recognizable figure was involved) or the new one (Gutooth is now one of those in power).

                              My thoughts in ssome of the stuff you brought up - a little more haphazard than i would prefer, but at least it highlighted some turbid spots that needed adressing, i hope.
                              Something I hadn't thought to state up to this point, I have been operating on the assumption that the "plot" of Dark Alliance is effectively "played out"; some group of Garou or Kindred dealt with the plot of Stalest and Guttooth. War was prevented, the Wyrm-creature was fought on the Expo Site, etc. My sense of what I've read from the sources on the events that follow kind of seem to assume it, though I couldn't say for sure.

                              In the current version of my setting, only one or two of the Garou characters presented in Dark Alliance have survived to the present day; Jim George of the Wendigo has survived and continues to be a leader among his tribe; the youngest daughter mentioned in the text of the then-leader of the Get, Ewald, is now a young up-and-comer in her tribe. Pretty much every other Garou mentioned in the text is gone. Several tribes have also been pushed from the city entirely, though they still have their presence in the wider province; the Black Furies and the Red Talons don't really have a tribal presence anymore, and the Silent Striders and Stargazers don't really bother after the loss of the Great Caern. On the subject of numbers, I basically wrote down approximate totals of each tribe's presence in the city according to Dark Alliance, then shaved 5 or so off of each tribe's population, which was part of how I determined that the Black Furies and Red Talons were effectively pushed out, and part of how I decided the Silver Fangs were effectively out of power (they only had like 5 left). Part of this is because, as I noted, I agreed with your assessment that this would be an ugly war for the Garou, while part has to do with the general tendency for mortality due to their violent lifestyle.

                              The fact that Siegfried has no dots in Potence is a big deal, and something I hadn't noticed before now, thanks for pointing it out. It's also fair to point out that anything Necross is described as stating in-character definitely needs to be taken with a grain of salt; I've kind of been operating on the assumption that there is a core "Necross" personality that is comparatively aware and rational, with the trick being to get a hold of him when that particular personality is at the wheel. Among the Kindred, I don't assume the losses to be as bad, but most people who aren't tough or good at hiding are gone. Necross, Rex, and the Nosferatu are relatively unbothered. Ilana of the Gangrel was killed, and her childer Simon is now an vengeful Garou-hunter. Meanwhile, Siegfried's Gangrel enforcer Derek ended up getting himself killed at some point, because he was an egotistical loony. Daphne of the Toreador is gone (dead or left, not sure) but her childe Andrew has stuck around. Lyle is still doing his thing of course. Most of the others listed in the book are gone.

                              Also, I don't have any notions about the Camarilla taking over Vancouver; it seems that keeps coming across too strong in my posts. It's not that I want Siegfried's position to be truly destabilized as much as uncomfortable; he was someone who had it all from the Kindred perspective, and now suddenly he has to struggle again, with that being a frustrating blow to his ego. I just want him to be metaphorically sweating. Given how his policies as Prince are described as benignly despotic under the ideal conditions of the Covenant, it doesn't seem like it would take much of a blow to his ego to push him to clamp down pretty hard, which is all I'm really trying to achieve with all the talk of his situation being unstable. I'm not especially keen on the idea of him having been knocked out of the picture for a while, so with that in mind I'd rather address the parts of my scenario you consider particularly improbable with him still in play? The whole Second Covenant is by it's very nature a tremendous stretch in itself, but I don't necessarily understand why Siegfried being active would make it especially untenable if they were a) not doing anything to antagonize him (until relatively recently at least, depending on how you imagine he'd view the attack on the Dief), and b) not operating within the bounds of downtown Vancouver, but instead out in the 'burbs, etc. Given that my players have opted for a Vampire-centred game, it's not even necessary for serving as a support group for a crossover party, so it's something that could be done away with if it's especially egregious. Similarly, I feel like long-term battle against an elder Kindred like Siegfried (among other things) has been precisely as devastating to Garou leadership as you'd expect; they're just the types to, generally speaking, put new leaders in charge and keep throwing themselves at the problem, so they haven't entirely ceased to be a bother for Siegfried even if hostilities have cooled off significantly.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Kharnov View Post

                                Something I hadn't thought to state up to this point, I have been operating on the assumption that the "plot" of Dark Alliance is effectively "played out"; some group of Garou or Kindred dealt with the plot of Stalest and Guttooth. War was prevented, the Wyrm-creature was fought on the Expo Site, etc. My sense of what I've read from the sources on the events that follow kind of seem to assume it, though I couldn't say for sure.
                                I kind of guessed it, but well, i'm kind of a magpie when it comes to book stuff - i may have no interest in a plotline or particular NPC, but since it's already there, you can use its actions offscreen as a way to connect some dots in your own story. Players sooner or later ask questions, so having some answers you can jump off stuff from can be good. In the case i thought that Gutooth, being a Rank 4 Theurge that was already causing trouble to the local garou leader with his anti-establishment movement, could have contributed to some of the bad turns things took, like so many tribal leaders meting their ends in a decade or two. He is just the right auspice and rank to find out about the weirdness in Victoria Island and use Covenant's silence on the subject against them, pretty much leading some into "go to deathtrap island or lose face in front of your people" scenario, for example.

                                Waste not, want not, you see.

                                As a bonus, you could have "Priesthood of Gaia" firebrands - with or without Gutooth around (martyrs serve a cause so much better than fallible living leaders) still around as a militant multi-tribal faction and sort of dark mirror/nemesis to the Second Covenant.

                                Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
                                In the current version of my setting, only one or two of the Garou characters presented in Dark Alliance have survived to the present day; Jim George of the Wendigo has survived and continues to be a leader among his tribe; the youngest daughter mentioned in the text of the then-leader of the Get, Ewald, is now a young up-and-comer in her tribe. Pretty much every other Garou mentioned in the text is gone. Several tribes have also been pushed from the city entirely, though they still have their presence in the wider province; the Black Furies and the Red Talons don't really have a tribal presence anymore, and the Silent Striders and Stargazers don't really bother after the loss of the Great Caern. On the subject of numbers, I basically wrote down approximate totals of each tribe's presence in the city according to Dark Alliance, then shaved 5 or so off of each tribe's population, which was part of how I determined that the Black Furies and Red Talons were effectively pushed out, and part of how I decided the Silver Fangs were effectively out of power (they only had like 5 left). Part of this is because, as I noted, I agreed with your assessment that this would be an ugly war for the Garou, while part has to do with the general tendency for mortality due to their violent lifestyle.
                                That's a quick and simple of evolving the timeline. Deciding on the situation of each tribe's leadership, which is solid, which contested, which divided and leaderless, would be good too.

                                Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
                                The fact that Siegfried has no dots in Potence is a big deal, and something I hadn't noticed before now, thanks for pointing it out. It's also fair to point out that anything Necross is described as stating in-character definitely needs to be taken with a grain of salt; I've kind of been operating on the assumption that there is a core "Necross" personality that is comparatively aware and rational, with the trick being to get a hold of him when that particular personality is at the wheel. Among the Kindred, I don't assume the losses to be as bad, but most people who aren't tough or good at hiding are gone. Necross, Rex, and the Nosferatu are relatively unbothered. Ilana of the Gangrel was killed, and her childer Simon is now an vengeful Garou-hunter. Meanwhile, Siegfried's Gangrel enforcer Derek ended up getting himself killed at some point, because he was an egotistical loony. Daphne of the Toreador is gone (dead or left, not sure) but her childe Andrew has stuck around. Lyle is still doing his thing of course. Most of the others listed in the book are gone.
                                Well, Siegfried does have Thaumaturgy 3 and a lot of other fun stuff. With a few exceptions, kindred who are not PCs don't go for straightforward/honorable combat. Ambush, traps and underhanded tricks all the way, i say. As an aside, while your view of Derek's end is ok and consistent with the adventure, sometimes i feel like the writers themselves took him a bit for granted.

                                The Covenant had been standing for 20 at the time described by the book. Derek arrived before that and stayed anyway, instead of looking for another city to play lupine-hunting captain. What does it say about his sheer hatred for the mere idea of such a truce - and his patience to wait for the right time to make a move - that he actually stayed? Also, he has Politics 3. He's far more of a rat bastard than people give him the credit for, due to the "rugged fanatic anti-lupine thugboy" image.

                                My original idea was that he betrayed Siegfried, leading a pack of Garou to him, to either get a life boon from saving the prince or to exploit his fall, counting on the ascension of a less consolidated prince (Stalest, Foster, Lyle or whoever) and a general climate of uncertainty to keep the ball rolling while playing reliable right hand man to whoever assumed the throne during the following years. And when Sieg wakes up, he abandons the "interine prince" in a display of loyalty to the "good times prince" and posibly preventing a more extended dispute for the throne for starting. Bonus that a Siegfried just out of torpor (one caused by Garou, to boot) might be that much amenable to listening to the "war leader" this time around.

                                Just a suggestion - it would be simple to break it apart and make a bunch of nasty stuff to leave buried from intervening years.
                                Last edited by Baaldam; 01-11-2020, 01:37 PM.

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