Vancouver: 20th Anniversary Edition

[Kharnov]

I kind of guessed it, but well, i'm kind of a magpie when it comes to book stuff - i may have no interest in a plotline or particular NPC, but since it's already there, you can use its actions offscreen as a way to connect some dots in your own story. Players sooner or later ask questions, so having some answers you can jump off stuff from can be good. In the case i thought that Gutooth, being a Rank 4 Theurge that was already causing trouble to the local garou leader with his anti-establishment movement, could have contributed to some of the bad turns things took, like so many tribal leaders meting their ends in a decade or two. He is just the right auspice and rank to find out about the weirdness in Victoria Island and use Covenant's silence on the subject against them, pretty much leading some into "go to deathtrap island or lose face in front of your people" scenario, for example.

Waste not, want not, you see.

As a bonus, you could have "Priesthood of Gaia" firebrands - with or without Gutooth around (martyrs serve a cause so much better than fallible living leaders) still around as a militant multi-tribal faction and sort of dark mirror/nemesis to the Second Covenant.

That's a quick and simple of evolving the timeline. Deciding on the situation of each tribe's leadership, which is solid, which contested, which divided and leaderless, would be good too.

I definitely agree about interconnecting different threads from material as much as possible. Involving him with whatever is going on in Victoria is an interesting possibility, but I was actually pondering another idea recently; a nest of Baali, which would seem to fit with it being known as the "Satanic capital" of Canada. My thought was possibly having a member of their group come over and start causing trouble, with the players being sent to investigate and deal with the mess in return for being offered Siegfried's permission to establish their own domains in the suburbs, though still ultimately subordinate to him as Prince; the idea would be using the neonates as a buffer against the Anarchs in Surrey, as most other Kindred wouldn't be interested in territory outside the heart of the city. My thought is that it allows the first chapter to be a combination of a supernatural horror mystery while also providing space for a "getting yourselves established in Kindred society" side-plot, as the resources and contacts they develop while trying to solve the mystery become the foundations of their new power base potentially. Or not; I'm a fan of free-form open-world style play, so I'd rather try and have a bunch of plot hooks floating around and see what kind of game the players choose to pursue from the options available, even if I offer a "default" storyline at the beginning. Whether or not I decide to keep Guttooth around somehow, the idea of a "Priests of Gaia" militant faction is really neat

Well, Siegfried does have Thaumaturgy 3 and a lot of other fun stuff. With a few exceptions, kindred who are not PCs don't go for straightforward/honorable combat. Ambush, traps and underhanded tricks all the way, i say. As an aside, while your view of Derek's end is ok and consistent with the adventure, sometimes i feel like the writers themselves took him a bit for granted.

The Covenant had been standing for 20 at the time described by the book. Derek arrived before that and stayed anyway, instead of looking for another city to play lupine-hunting captain.
What does it say about his sheer hatred for the mere idea of such a truce - and his patience to wait for the right time to make a move - that he actually stayed? Also, he has Politics 3. He's far more of a rat bastard than people give him the credit for, due to the "rugged fanatic anti-lupine thugboy" image.

My original idea was that he betrayed Siegfried, leading a pack of Garou to him, to either get a life boon from saving the prince or use his fall to galvanize the other kindred, becoming Stalest (or Foster's) right hand man in the following years. When Sieg wakes up, he abandons Stalest (or whoever) and offers his service "back to the rightful leader" as the easier path to keeping his position.

Oh yeah, I'm not trying to undersell Siegfried's abilities, but it does seem odd given his warrior past that he wouldn't have a single dot in the Discipline that provides physical strength. But then, Potence is probably the physical Discipline that I'd ignore if I was forced to only pick two, so I can't judge him for that, haha. His other abilities are definitely insane; I need to decide what kind of insanity I want his 6+ Disciplines to be, since the text doesn't really provide any guidelines. His Thaumaturgy is cool, but the fact that Julie's abilities with it outstrip his so thoroughly leave me feeling that it's more a backup tool in his arsenal, with her performing the serious magics he needs done (it's something I find kind of amusing given how Julie learned her Thaumaturgy first from Siegfried rather than the other Tremere, far as I can tell).

The points you make about Derek are pretty fair, I'm certainly not going to pretend that I'm not just giving a personal middle-finger to his kind of belligerent bigotry by saying "idiot got himself killed"; the fact that he's canonically supposed to have been pursuing this little crusade since the 1800s and was still undead and kicking in the 1990s means that it'd have to be more complicated than him just sticking his head into a wood-chipper.

[Baaldam]

Hello, back to this thing after a bunch of months of hiatus.

I definitely agree about interconnecting different threads from material as much as possible. Involving him with whatever is going on in Victoria is an interesting possibility, but I was actually pondering another idea recently; a nest of Baali, which would seem to fit with it being known as the "Satanic capital" of Canada. My thought was possibly having a member of their group come over and start causing trouble, with the players being sent to investigate and deal with the mess in return for being offered Siegfried's permission to establish their own domains in the suburbs, though still ultimately subordinate to him as Prince; the idea would be using the neonates as a buffer against the Anarchs in Surrey, as most other Kindred wouldn't be interested in territory outside the heart of the city. My thought is that it allows the first chapter to be a combination of a supernatural horror mystery while also providing space for a "getting yourselves established in Kindred society" side-plot, as the resources and contacts they develop while trying to solve the mystery become the foundations of their new power base potentially. Or not; I'm a fan of free-form open-world style play, so I'd rather try and have a bunch of plot hooks floating around and see what kind of game the players choose to pursue from the options available, even if I offer a "default" storyline at the beginning. Whether or not I decide to keep Guttooth around somehow, the idea of a "Priests of Gaia" militant faction is really neat

Throwing the PCs into Victoria should, specially if they gets hints here and there of how insanely dangerous the place might be, if 3 past lieutenants of Siegfried disappeared there in a short time period in the 90s, not to mention maybe some of the old Garou leadership, if you use the "Gutooth's baiting" angle for a little extra.

That said, it doesn't have to mean the place is a walking TPK for young neonates - it would be perfectly possible for a "Monty Coven standoff" scenario, where all the superpowers nearly neutralized each just before the PCs walk in, to happen and explain a more manageable threat level, with the Baali rebuilding their ranks or whatever.

Oh yeah, I'm not trying to undersell Siegfried's abilities, but it does seem odd given his warrior past that he wouldn't have a single dot in the Discipline that provides physical strength. But then, Potence is probably the physical Discipline that I'd ignore if I was forced to only pick two, so I can't judge him for that, haha. His other abilities are definitely insane; I need to decide what kind of insanity I want his 6+ Disciplines to be, since the text doesn't really provide any guidelines. His Thaumaturgy is cool, but the fact that Julie's abilities with it outstrip his so thoroughly leave me feeling that it's more a backup tool in his arsenal, with her performing the serious magics he needs done (it's something I find kind of amusing given how Julie learned her Thaumaturgy first from Siegfried rather than the other Tremere, far as I can tell).

Well, nothing impedes you of giving Sieg 2-4 dots of Potence, either at expense of the (never really described) elder powers or in addition to it. About his and Julie's thaumaturgy levels i usually work with the conceit that she learned from him, but would truly blossom into her full potential through access to the Library of the Forgotten.

The points you make about Derek are pretty fair, I'm certainly not going to pretend that I'm not just giving a personal middle-finger to his kind of belligerent bigotry by saying "idiot got himself killed"; the fact that he's canonically supposed to have been pursuing this little crusade since the 1800s and was still undead and kicking in the 1990s means that it'd have to be more complicated than him just sticking his head into a wood-chipper.

Or he just got a call from his equally garou-hating sire - that by canon now happens to be prince in Milwaukee - and moved there.
Makes even more sense for that request to happen in account of his main lieutenant becoming an Alastor.

It's all in what you want to reference or use.

Anyway, hope you are still interested or involved in this.

[Kharnov]

Hello, back to this thing after a bunch of months of hiatus.



Throwing the PCs into Victoria should, specially if they gets hints here and there of how insanely dangerous the place might be, if 3 past lieutenants of Siegfried disappeared there in a short time period in the 90s, not to mention maybe some of the old Garou leadership, if you use the "Gutooth's baiting" angle for a little extra.

That said, it doesn't have to mean the place is a walking TPK for young neonates - it would be perfectly possible for a "Monty Coven standoff" scenario, where all the superpowers nearly neutralized each just before the PCs walk in, to happen and explain a more manageable threat level, with the Baali rebuilding their ranks or whatever.




Well, nothing impedes you of giving Sieg 2-4 dots of Potence, either at expense of the (never really described) elder powers or in addition to it. About his and Julie's thaumaturgy levels i usually work with the conceit that she learned from him, but would truly blossom into her full potential through access to the Library of the Forgotten.




Or he just got a call from his equally garou-hating sire - that by canon now happens to be prince in Milwaukee - and moved there.
Makes even more sense for that request to happen in account of his main lieutenant becoming an Alastor.

It's all in what you want to reference or use.

Anyway, hope you are still interested or involved in this.

Welcome back! I must admit that this idea has been on the back-burner for a while, but I haven't given up on it by any means.

In particular, I think I have come around to your argument about removing Siegfried from the equation in order to upset the status quo a bit more. I don't think I'll have him definitely be in torpor, but rather wherever he is/whatever he is doing is pretty much a mystery, except to Julie perhaps. I'm probably thinking it will have something to do with events in Victoria, but I still haven't made a solid decision regarding what I want the story to be there.

And it's been a long time, I forgot or didn't know about Derek's sire. I don't know if I much care about what happens to him if he's not actually active in Vancouver, beyond vague curiosity about the network of connections and possibilities, but putting him on a bus to Milwaukee is pretty straightforward lol.

[Baaldam]

Welcome back! I must admit that this idea has been on the back-burner for a while, but I haven't given up on it by any means.

In particular, I think I have come around to your argument about removing Siegfried from the equation in order to upset the status quo a bit more. I don't think I'll have him definitely be in torpor, but rather wherever he is/whatever he is doing is pretty much a mystery, except to Julie perhaps. I'm probably thinking it will have something to do with events in Victoria, but I still haven't made a solid decision regarding what I want the story to be there.

Thing there could go a bunch of ways depending on what you feel are the needs for your chronicle exactly because the matter was left as a cypher - maybe there's a whole Baali nest or some methuselah-level hidden threat there. Or the 3 lieutenants never came back because 1 of them is partly behind the matter and turned on the unsuspecting others. It's as big or as small as one needs it to be.

And it's been a long time, I forgot or didn't know about Derek's sire. I don't know if I much care about what happens to him if he's not actually active in Vancouver, beyond vague curiosity about the network of connections and possibilities, but putting him on a bus to Milwaukee is pretty straightforward lol.

Yes, it's easy to forget at times how many of the NPCs across the early books would be stealthly interconnected, such as Derek in DA: Vancouver being the childe of Mark Decker, now prince of Milwaukee - and himself the childe of Lucien in Gary. What makes for a quick and simple way to take him out of Vancouver to Milwaukee as you pointed out.

Alternatively, if your players are more interested in shooting down rabid mutts than dealing with them, Derek could make a mentor figure for one or more of them, though i think Simon takes this role in your timeline with the death of Illyana, no? Or a distant ally/rival that can make things interesting "I know a guy who knows a prince down south near the Lakes, hates them lupines more than all of us put together. Time to see if he can bring us some extra heat."

(Also, have to reread Dread Names one of those days, to check if Decker's lieutenant, Thomas Gerhieren, actually became an Alastor or that is just my overactive imagination....)

[Kharnov]

In the Conventionbook: Syndicate (2nd edition), there's a chantry of the mages of Syndicate in Vancouver. They are the responsibles of the conquest of the Caern of the Glass Walkers in the city and the assasination of Roger Daly.

I owe Magus a huge apology for not acknowledging this a while back, because it hits on a point that now has me pondering. Much of my previous history has been constructed on the premise that the Great Caern in Stanley Park was lost. That's based on something written on the wiki. But following up on the various cited texts, it only mentions Roger Daly dying in defence of "his urban caern - a caern that was lost" in A World of Rage. That does indeed sound more like the Smiling Buddha Caern of the Corporate Raiders than the Great Caern shared collectively by all of the Garou in the region. Does anyone know of any other sources that might include information clarifying, or is it actually up in the air and the wiki writers made a potentially mistaken assumption?

[Magus]

I think it refers to the Smiling Buddha Caern, not to the Great Caern.

[Baaldam]

I owe Magus a huge apology for not acknowledging this a while back, because it hits on a point that now has me pondering. Much of my previous history has been constructed on the premise that the Great Caern in Stanley Park was lost. That's based on something written on the wiki. But following up on the various cited texts, it only mentions Roger Daly dying in defence of "his urban caern - a caern that was lost" in A World of Rage. That does indeed sound more like the Smiling Buddha Caern of the Corporate Raiders than the Great Caern shared collectively by all of the Garou in the region. Does anyone know of any other sources that might include information clarifying, or is it actually up in the air and the wiki writers made a potentially mistaken assumption?

That said, the death of Daly - and loss of a good chunk of the local Glass Walkers that would follow a loss of the Smiling Buddha caern - could have considerable indirect repercussions for the maintenance of the Compact, making it more vulnerable to firebrands like the Priest of Gaia and some in the Shadow Lord & Red Talons' leaderships among others.

[Kharnov]

That said, the death of Daly - and loss of a good chunk of the local Glass Walkers that would follow a loss of the Smiling Buddha caern - could have considerable indirect repercussions for the maintenance of the Compact, making it more vulnerable to firebrands like the Priest of Gaia and some in the Shadow Lord & Red Talons' leaderships among others.

Agreed. It does matter to the extent that the presence of the Great Caern motivates the unusual amount of cooperation amongst the local Garou Tribes, in addition to the Compact with humanity and the Covenant with vampires. Whatever disagreements they may have, fighting *between* Garou should not be happening near Vancouver so long as the Great Caern still stands.

I'm also pondering Victoria again. Baali Nest was an ok idea off the cuff, but I'm contemplating something more unusual now, though I'm not certain what yet. In particular, I'm thinking that the Mystery in Victoria was the source of Guttooth's protections, whether or not the Theurge knew it or not. I definitely don't want it to be another Vampire Ancient, and I'd kind of like it to not be of the Wyrm either so it's a confusing out-of-context problem for the Garou as well.

Also, given how frequently this thread incorporates material from 2+ gamelines, maybe a mod might want to move it into the core World of Darkness section?

[Kharnov]

Bumping this topic, kind of, but I have some new things to discuss!

The original Syndicate Convention book adds some interesting details about what happened to Roger Daly and the Smiling Buddha Caern; it wasn't actually an attack by obviously Wyrmish forces, but was instead a favour called in by Pentex from the Syndicate/Technocracy, through their SPD connection, in return for Pentex's efforts "cleaning up" the site of the Diefenbakker Casino, as far as I can tell.

Which leads in to the larger topic I'm interested in discussing today: the Syndicate's Special Projects Division, a Methodology allied with (and almost thoroughly corrupted by) Pentex. Canon has the SPD pretty much vanishing during the Avatar Storm/Dimensional Anomaly; Pentex keeps sending the Syndicate cheques, but anyone who tries to investigate deeper tends to have their head sent in a box to the Syndicate leadership, who are too afraid of letting their allies find out the details to draw attention to it by declaring open war on Pentex.

This is where things get a bit messy. It turns out that the Diefenbakker Casino was set up to be something of a "regional headquarters" for the Syndicate, with all the Methodologies supposed to be represented. Moreover, the actual Pentex presence in the location is comparatively subtle. While the wiki outright declares it a site of Fomori production, the actual source material has been much more iffy about what might be going on under the Dief, possible Wyrm Pit aside.

With the SPD disappearing into smoke, but it and Pentex having some tangible connections with the establishment at the Dief, I'm wondering how I want to handle the progression of two decades. Should it still be there? Should it be overrun by Wyrm cultists, or should they have been purged when the SPD disappeared? Whatever the case, the local Garou had their eyes on the Dief, and a part of me has wondered if giving it the "Liston treatment" (the Garou blow it up) might be simpler. But it's a juicy plot thread to waste.

[Saur Ops Specialist]

Bumping this topic, kind of, but I have some new things to discuss!

The original Syndicate Convention book adds some interesting details about what happened to Roger Daly and the Smiling Buddha Caern; it wasn't actually an attack by obviously Wyrmish forces, but was instead a favour called in by Pentex from the Syndicate/Technocracy, through their SPD connection, in return for Pentex's efforts "cleaning up" the site of the Diefenbakker Casino, as far as I can tell.

All of those parties could easily be pretty nakedly Wyrmish, since it involves the Syndicate and its SPD.

Which leads in to the larger topic I'm interested in discussing today: the Syndicate's Special Projects Division, a Methodology allied with (and almost thoroughly corrupted by) Pentex. Canon has the SPD pretty much vanishing during the Avatar Storm/Dimensional Anomaly; Pentex keeps sending the Syndicate cheques, but anyone who tries to investigate deeper tends to have their head sent in a box to the Syndicate leadership, who are too afraid of letting their allies find out the details to draw attention to it by declaring open war on Pentex.

This is where things get a bit messy. It turns out that the Diefenbakker Casino was set up to be something of a "regional headquarters" for the Syndicate, with all the Methodologies supposed to be represented. Moreover, the actual Pentex presence in the location is comparatively subtle. While the wiki outright declares it a site of Fomori production, the actual source material has been much more iffy about what might be going on under the Dief, possible Wyrm Pit aside.

With the SPD disappearing into smoke, but it and Pentex having some tangible connections with the establishment at the Dief, I'm wondering how I want to handle the progression of two decades. Should it still be there? Should it be overrun by Wyrm cultists, or should they have been purged when the SPD disappeared? Whatever the case, the local Garou had their eyes on the Dief, and a part of me has wondered if giving it the "Liston treatment" (the Garou blow it up) might be simpler. But it's a juicy plot thread to waste.

The SPD isn't strictly going to have cultists as such. At least, they won't think of themselves in that light; they're going to be mostly suits and professionals, who just happen to occasionally throw around some pretty terrible shit in order to get paid.

[Kharnov]

All of those parties could easily be pretty nakedly Wyrmish, since it involves the Syndicate and its SPD.

That's fair, it could have been. I'd have to re-read it maybe, but the "vibe" I got was more of a generic Technocracy attack, including troops and equipment from other Conventions, rather than forces predominantly belonging to the Syndicate. But it's left pretty open.

The SPD isn't strictly going to have cultists as such. At least, they won't think of themselves in that light; they're going to be mostly suits and professionals, who just happen to occasionally throw around some pretty terrible shit in order to get paid.

Fair nuff, was using the term "Wyrm cultist" fast and loose.

Which also brings up another detail. IIRC the name of the SPD member in the "Pit Bosses" Amalgam that is based in the Dief is Mack Brolin. And he is described as being mostly unaware of what Pentex is really up to. And to the extent that he seems to be more of a "money-man" than a researcher, I'm not sure how much he actually understands regarding the technological accomplishments of the SPD. Setting aside questions about Mack specifically, I've been pondering those sorts of cases in relation to the entire SPD vanishing into thin air. The "vibe" I always got was that (on our side of the Gauntlet at least) the disappearance of SPD members was voluntary, that they chose to go into hiding. But that gets complicated if you have SPD members who don't necessarily understand the reason for hiding (which was never entirely explained to the players either, a "mystery" to play out).

So, how much of the SPD do you imagine as being mostly "dupes," how many have some idea of what they're dealing with but haven't been fully corrupted, and how many do you figure are fully corrupted?

[Saur Ops Specialist]

That's fair, it could have been. I'd have to re-read it maybe, but the "vibe" I got was more of a generic Technocracy attack, including troops and equipment from other Conventions, rather than forces predominantly belonging to the Syndicate. But it's left pretty open.




Fair nuff, was using the term "Wyrm cultist" fast and loose.

Which also brings up another detail. IIRC the name of the SPD member in the "Pit Bosses" Amalgam that is based in the Dief is Mack Brolin. And he is described as being mostly unaware of what Pentex is really up to. And to the extent that he seems to be more of a "money-man" than a researcher, I'm not sure how much he actually understands regarding the technological accomplishments of the SPD. Setting aside questions about Mack specifically, I've been pondering those sorts of cases in relation to the entire SPD vanishing into thin air. The "vibe" I always got was that (on our side of the Gauntlet at least) the disappearance of SPD members was voluntary, that they chose to go into hiding. But that gets complicated if you have SPD members who don't necessarily understand the reason for hiding (which was never entirely explained to the players either, a "mystery" to play out).

So, how much of the SPD do you imagine as being mostly "dupes," how many have some idea of what they're dealing with but haven't been fully corrupted, and how many do you figure are fully corrupted?

Since Pentex pays off the Syndicate via SPD, they're probably committed to using resources to dealing with any problems, which means that they can keep an awful lot of people in the dark. At least, more in the dark than sending fomori hit squads. They make things like the GENEs that go to Deepwater, so they probably want a lot less scrutiny on SPD so it keeps making "BOWs" for their efforts in various theaters of actual combat. That means that very few people are going to be outright ridden or possessed, but they're all likely to register as at least lightly tainted given the time that they spend rubbing elbows with much worse people.

[Kharnov]

Since Pentex pays off the Syndicate via SPD, they're probably committed to using resources to dealing with any problems, which means that they can keep an awful lot of people in the dark. At least, more in the dark than sending fomori hit squads. They make things like the GENEs that go to Deepwater, so they probably want a lot less scrutiny on SPD so it keeps making "BOWs" for their efforts in various theaters of actual combat. That means that very few people are going to be outright ridden or possessed, but they're all likely to register as at least lightly tainted given the time that they spend rubbing elbows with much worse people.

"GENEs"? "BOWs"? Sorry, my WoD knowledge is broad but shallow, don't recall the meanings for those.

I guess the question is, do the members of the SPD still see themselves as part of the Syndicate, and if they do, what reason do they have for "going dark"? Unless the talk of "the entire Methodology vanishing" is hyperbolic, it seems that the SPD as a whole has no open contact with the Syndicate anymore; maybe individual SPD members have maintained connections with a handful of insiders, but the situation is broadly seen as a mystery. SPD members are either choosing not to communicate on their own, or are being discouraged or prevented in some fashion. And the whys intrigue me. And I wonder if the Pentex sending the Syndicate money isn't just an incentive for the Technocrats to keep out of their business, but also a gesture that Pentex can point to and tell SPD members who think they are still loyal Technocrats "see, we're all on the same side still," even as Pentex tricks them into believing there is a good reason for them to be in hiding ("your work is too important for word to get out!").

But to get a bit more on topic again, your point about Pentex not wanting to draw attention to the SPD would probably mean that they probably would not put a bunch of Wyrm-tainted fingerprints all over a major Syndicate facility. But of course, whatever might be happening with the Pit below is anyone's guess... I probably need to check the Dief's security features again to be sure, but I suspect a lot of subtle taint could spread around the place without getting picked up by the resident Syndics.

[Saur Ops Specialist]

"GENEs"? "BOWs"? Sorry, my WoD knowledge is broad but shallow, don't recall the meanings for those.

GENEs are from Blood-Dimmed Tide. They're amphibious shocktroop fomori passed off as constructs to the TU personnel on site at Project Deepwater (a deep-sea habitat around the deepest part of the ocean). Most members of the TU, even the VEs who head the Earth Frontiers Division, don't have the cosmological awareness to second-guess their nature, so they fly under the TU's radar.

BOW is a term from Resident Evil that I co-opted for that post. It stands for Bio-Organic Weapon, and would probably be what Technocrats think that fomori are in the absence of a point of view that allows for the concept of "malign spirits twist a host's physiology past the breaking point".

I guess the question is, do the members of the SPD still see themselves as part of the Syndicate, and if they do, what reason do they have for "going dark"? Unless the talk of "the entire Methodology vanishing" is hyperbolic, it seems that the SPD as a whole has no open contact with the Syndicate anymore; maybe individual SPD members have maintained connections with a handful of insiders, but the situation is broadly seen as a mystery. SPD members are either choosing not to communicate on their own, or are being discouraged or prevented in some fashion. And the whys intrigue me. And I wonder if the Pentex sending the Syndicate money isn't just an incentive for the Technocrats to keep out of their business, but also a gesture that Pentex can point to and tell SPD members who think they are still loyal Technocrats "see, we're all on the same side still," even as Pentex tricks them into believing there is a good reason for them to be in hiding ("your work is too important for word to get out!").

That could work. There are a lot of ways that they can just throw around money to make some approximation of the old status quo.

But to get a bit more on topic again, your point about Pentex not wanting to draw attention to the SPD would probably mean that they probably would not put a bunch of Wyrm-tainted fingerprints all over a major Syndicate facility. But of course, whatever might be happening with the Pit below is anyone's guess... I probably need to check the Dief's security features again to be sure, but I suspect a lot of subtle taint could spread around the place without getting picked up by the resident Syndics.

As noted, the Technocracy isn't too particularly informed or in the mood to believe in a grimdark Trimurti that knocked the cosmos off-balance. It would require them to acknowledge that they're not in control of everything, first and foremost, and, well, that's kind of a big stumbling block for mages in general, but the ruling order in particular.

[Kharnov]

A bit of a bump, but there's a couple interesting things regarding this topic I wanted to share:

First of all, we got a mention on Reddit! I don't have an account there so I haven't posted, but apparently someone appreciated some of the ideas and realizations that have come out of our back-and-forth here

Updated Vancouver B.C. setting? : WhiteWolfRPG (reddit.com)

Particularly noteworthy within that thread, probably the main reason that I'm posting here, is that someone has apparently published an update to the Vancouver setting in the Storyteller's Vault!

Soul Fire - White Wolf | Storytellers Vault

If I'm being honest, I feel rather iffy about a number of the ideas I'm seeing advertised in the description, and I'm a little too broke at the moment to throw down money for a product I'm not sure I'm going to enjoy. But maybe it's just my personal taste, maybe I'm just a bit jealous that someone's gone a step further than I'd probably have dared with the same idea. If anyone has read it, or if anyone in this thread wants to check it out, I'd be interested to hear what people think