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  • #46
    Bump bump bump it up!

    In all seriousness, I found another mention of Vancouver in source material that I felt like sharing, along with potentially discussing some of the ideas that I've had as a result.

    Turns out, in the Revised NWO Convention Book, they mention an Operative Cell based in Vancouver, including an old HIT Mark that pretends to be a grandpa, lol.

    Which led me to consider the idea that the Technocracy's presence in the city may have expanded over the years. Previously it had become something of an HQ for the Syndicate in the Pacific Northwest (the Dief was designed in part to be an operation that all Syndicate Methodologies could participate in), and I was wondering if the Syndicate might try to strengthen their connections with Iteration X and the Progenitors by helping to fund some modest research Constructs in the area while they continue expanding their own presence. Meanwhile the Void Engineers would mostly stay down in Seattle since they have a shipyard there, while the NWO are *officially* not present in the city since the local Syndics had absolutely no interest in inviting/funding them due to the rivalry between the Conventions; *unofficially* they have a Cell nearby capable of keeping an eye on the Syndicate in addition to being able to respond to other events further north if necessary.

    Curious about what people might think of the idea Like it, dislike it? What might the implications be for the local Kindred and Garou populations?

    Also, something I've recently considered is including a Corax population in the city. The totem of the Great Caern is Raven, and there are a *lot* of crows in the city.

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    • #47
      I would definitely add Corax. The WW books always mentioned the Pacific Northwest as one of the rare strongholds of the Corax (along with England and London), and since the Great Caern does have Raven as its totem, it makes sense the Corax would be there. In fact, it should be the one caern the Corax visit most frequently. I'd make it part of the sept's pact with the caern totem that they have to welcome the Corax and never harm one.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
        Bump bump bump it up!

        In all seriousness, I found another mention of Vancouver in source material that I felt like sharing, along with potentially discussing some of the ideas that I've had as a result.

        Turns out, in the Revised NWO Convention Book, they mention an Operative Cell based in Vancouver, including an old HIT Mark that pretends to be a grandpa, lol.
        "I need your clothes, your boots, and your walking stick."

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
          Bump bump bump it up!

          In all seriousness, I found another mention of Vancouver in source material that I felt like sharing, along with potentially discussing some of the ideas that I've had as a result.

          Turns out, in the Revised NWO Convention Book, they mention an Operative Cell based in Vancouver, including an old HIT Mark that pretends to be a grandpa, lol.

          Which led me to consider the idea that the Technocracy's presence in the city may have expanded over the years. Previously it had become something of an HQ for the Syndicate in the Pacific Northwest (the Dief was designed in part to be an operation that all Syndicate Methodologies could participate in), and I was wondering if the Syndicate might try to strengthen their connections with Iteration X and the Progenitors by helping to fund some modest research Constructs in the area while they continue expanding their own presence. Meanwhile the Void Engineers would mostly stay down in Seattle since they have a shipyard there, while the NWO are *officially* not present in the city since the local Syndics had absolutely no interest in inviting/funding them due to the rivalry between the Conventions; *unofficially* they have a Cell nearby capable of keeping an eye on the Syndicate in addition to being able to respond to other events further north if necessary.

          Curious about what people might think of the idea Like it, dislike it? What might the implications be for the local Kindred and Garou populations?

          Also, something I've recently considered is including a Corax population in the city. The totem of the Great Caern is Raven, and there are a *lot* of crows in the city.

          Hello, here we are again.

          About the NWO, i can see them possibly taking an interest in the ups & downs of Werewolf-Vampire interactions in the region, for research purposes to say the least, if not outright experiment with some bits of social engineering through cat's paw, intelligence manipulation and the occasional stealth intervention here and there. Learning what buttons to push to get the monsters fighting each other, their respective strengths in different arenas and how much one rise tensions or not before it spills out too far into mundane society are all quite invaluable information the NWO might glean from Vancouver's metropolitan area and possibly make strategic applications of across urban centers throughout the whole world.

          Knowledge of how the other supernaturals think, work, main belief systems, political factions and so on could go a long way towards helping the NWO's agendas as a whole. Intel like this might go a long way toward avoiding escalation disasters like the "solar nukes for Ravnos" mess from Revised era, or at least understanding how they come to be, among other things.


          Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
          I would definitely add Corax. The WW books always mentioned the Pacific Northwest as one of the rare strongholds of the Corax (along with England and London), and since the Great Caern does have Raven as its totem, it makes sense the Corax would be there. In fact, it should be the one caern the Corax visit most frequently. I'd make it part of the sept's pact with the caern totem that they have to welcome the Corax and never harm one.
          Good points indeed and having the Corax as another shadowy group of interest involved in the city's vicissitudes can only add to the potential mayhem in balancing it all.

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          • #50
            Ok, an hilariously bad idea of a retcon just crossed my mind.....

            What if Yokoshi was the NWO's infiltrator among Vancouver vampires, the whole "observer with peculiar sense of honor from obscure kindred clan of Japan, trying to study the Lupine-Kindred peace to learn from" story simply an elaborate rationale to cover up the power replication limitations and AI logic issues of a modified Hit Mark in trying to pass itself as a vampire?
            Last edited by Baaldam; 12-29-2021, 01:20 AM.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
              I would definitely add Corax. The WW books always mentioned the Pacific Northwest as one of the rare strongholds of the Corax (along with England and London), and since the Great Caern does have Raven as its totem, it makes sense the Corax would be there. In fact, it should be the one caern the Corax visit most frequently. I'd make it part of the sept's pact with the caern totem that they have to welcome the Corax and never harm one.
              The central tenets of the agreement that the Garou have regarding the Great Caern (access to all, no fighting nearby) would probably mostly provide the Corax access without specifying them, but I don't see any reason that a Level 5 Caern couldn't impose additional conditions, and it would make sense for the totem to ensure that its children have guaranteed access to at least one Level 5 Caern in the world. Maintaining connections with the Corax would also be good for the Garou, help keep them posted on what's happening in the wider world.

              Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
              "I need your clothes, your boots, and your walking stick."
              xD I see what you did there xP

              Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
              Hello, here we are again.

              About the NWO, i can see them possibly taking an interest in the ups & downs of Werewolf-Vampire interactions in the region, for research purposes to say the least, if not outright experiment with some bits of social engineering through cat's paw, intelligence manipulation and the occasional stealth intervention here and there. Learning what buttons to push to get the monsters fighting each other, their respective strengths in different arenas and how much one rise tensions or not before it spills out too far into mundane society are all quite invaluable information the NWO might glean from Vancouver's metropolitan area and possibly make strategic applications of across urban centers throughout the whole world.

              Knowledge of how the other supernaturals think, work, main belief systems, political factions and so on could go a long way towards helping the NWO's agendas as a whole. Intel like this might go a long way toward avoiding escalation disasters like the "solar nukes for Ravnos" mess from Revised era, or at least understanding how they come to be, among other things.
              Just when you think you're free

              The NWO definitely has a lot to learn potentially, but they are hampered by the fact that they are trying to keep their presence a secret while the Syndicate have significant operations in the city. One of the more interesting features is that the lead Syndic in the city was described as having a friendly relationship with Siegfried, one that included a "gentlemen's agreement" not to dig into each other's secrets, since they both have been able to piece together that the other is definitely more than just a normal businessman. Siegfried's support for the Dief (which the Garou know is sitting on top of a Pit) is one of the things that contributed to the Covenant between the Garou and Kindred breaking down IIRC (that and one of their leaders having his pelt hanging from one of the walls...).

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              • #52
                I think a Techie presence is good, but should remain relatively small, at least on Enlightened agents. One or two members of each Convention is more than enough to make a lot of noise (or none at all), coordinate and empower a lot of Citizens, and generally make their presence felt without risk of stealing the show.

                Corax are certainly a good and very welcome addition, and I would actually implement Baaldam's bad idea and have Yokoshi as actually a Technocratic infiltrator of some kind. That wouldn't be actually a retcon: it would turn the original depiction into something that makes sense to the current lore. And anyone with some experience with Asian Kindred or Wan-Kuei would notice that things don't add up with this guy.


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                • #53
                  Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                  I think a Techie presence is good, but should remain relatively small, at least on Enlightened agents. One or two members of each Convention is more than enough to make a lot of noise (or none at all), coordinate and empower a lot of Citizens, and generally make their presence felt without risk of stealing the show.

                  Corax are certainly a good and very welcome addition, and I would actually implement Baaldam's bad idea and have Yokoshi as actually a Technocratic infiltrator of some kind. That wouldn't be actually a retcon: it would turn the original depiction into something that makes sense to the current lore. And anyone with some experience with Asian Kindred or Wan-Kuei would notice that things don't add up with this guy.
                  I agree, I was thinking that the It-X/Progenitor Amalgams would likely be only one or two Enlightened Agents, the rest Extraordinary Citizens or regular scientists. The Syndic presence is probably a bit bigger, just because it's already pre-established that they have more of a presence in the area.

                  I'm honestly not a fan Yokoshi-as-Technocrat-infiltrator. I'd prefer to stick to the spirit of his presence rather than radically twist it to something else. If he's around, he'll either be a Gaki or a more up-to-date example of a Cainite from Asia. The fact that there is some discussion of both Gaki and refugees from Hong Kong entering the city gives me stuff to work with. Not exactly sure how I want to handle the Wan Kuei yet, tbh.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Kharnov View Post

                    I agree, I was thinking that the It-X/Progenitor Amalgams would likely be only one or two Enlightened Agents, the rest Extraordinary Citizens or regular scientists. The Syndic presence is probably a bit bigger, just because it's already pre-established that they have more of a presence in the area.

                    I'm honestly not a fan Yokoshi-as-Technocrat-infiltrator. I'd prefer to stick to the spirit of his presence rather than radically twist it to something else. If he's around, he'll either be a Gaki or a more up-to-date example of a Cainite from Asia. The fact that there is some discussion of both Gaki and refugees from Hong Kong entering the city gives me stuff to work with. Not exactly sure how I want to handle the Wan Kuei yet, tbh.

                    The point with that idea is that Yokoshi would still be an outside observer as written and his agenda still the same, main difference is that "his origin is a lie" makes it so you have to rework less of his background, that is quite outdated and incompatible with the Wan Kuei in more than a few parts.Also, his masters and contacts far more immediate and close by matter than everybody might be expecting, what's not bad either. But well, it's your game and totally up to your preferences anyway. Being japanese in the first place how much contact Yokoshi can be expected to have to have or not with any Hong Kong emigrees is very much up for debate i guess.


                    On an unrelated note, i think the Dark Alliance book mentions in passing something about a caern that might have existed but been lost in Victoria Island, so whatever is happening there could connect to the wyrm or elements of local native american supernatural. Just a thought.
                    Last edited by Baaldam; 12-31-2021, 12:49 AM.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Baaldam View Post


                      The point with that idea is that Yokoshi would still be an outside observer as written and his agenda still the same, main difference is that "his origin is a lie" makes it so you have to rework less of his background, that is quite outdated and incompatible with the Wan Kuei in more than a few parts.Also, his masters and contacts far more immediate and close by matter than everybody might be expecting, what's not bad either. But well, it's your game and totally up to your preferences anyway. Being japanese in the first place how much contact Yokoshi can be expected to have to have or not with any Hong Kong emigrees is very much up for debate i guess.


                      On an unrelated note, i think the Dark Alliance book mentions in passing something about a caern that might have existed but been lost in Victoria Island, so whatever is happening there could connect to the wyrm or elements of local native american supernatural. Just a thought.
                      It's not like I'm super committed to Yokoshi even being in the city anymore. But House Bishamon is a group of Japanese Wan Kuei (an "uji" of "Gaki") who are very briefly described as being present in the city; the Hong Kongers are newcomers who are complicating matters.

                      There may have been mention of a caern, I can't recall. My interest in Victoria/Vancouver Island mostly has to do with the Mysterious-Something that leaves most visiting Garou looking like the life has been sucked out of them afterwards, and Kindred just plain disappearing. I've thought about digging into local mythology for inspiration, but I'm a bit wary about that.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Kharnov View Post

                        It's not like I'm super committed to Yokoshi even being in the city anymore. But House Bishamon is a group of Japanese Wan Kuei (an "uji" of "Gaki") who are very briefly described as being present in the city; the Hong Kongers are newcomers who are complicating matters.
                        Big question - are those Hong Kongers Wan Kuei that didn't fit with the chinese elders for spiritual or political reasons or are we talking of the HK kindred that jumped ship with the end of british authority over the territory? Because those are two quite different groups that can bring much different things to the table and in the case of the later you might be able to pilfer some NPC ideas from 1st ed a World of Darkness.


                        Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
                        There may have been mention of a caern, I can't recall. My interest in Victoria/Vancouver Island mostly has to do with the Mysterious-Something that leaves most visiting Garou looking like the life has been sucked out of them afterwards, and Kindred just plain disappearing. I've thought about digging into local mythology for inspiration, but I'm a bit wary about that.
                        Any reason in particular beside satanists being easy to relate to Baali, whose material is more acessible to a VtM ST than MtA or WtA stuff?
                        Last edited by Baaldam; 12-31-2021, 01:08 PM.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by White Wolf Wiki
                          The Kuei-jin have a small community in the local Japanese population. Their sponsors are House Bishamon, who use the wave of immigration to smuggle their agents to the city. The main purpose of the Kuei-jin population within the city is intelligence gathering. Since 1997, expatriates from Hong Kong have fled to Vancouver to avoid the bloody conflict between the Righteous Devils of Kowloon and the Endless Whirlwind who both fight over control of the future of the Flame Court. So far, House Bishamon has accepted these refugees, but worries if the increased Kuei-jin presence could draw out hostile reactions from other factions, especially since the latest acts of aggression from the Quincunx.
                          It was a while back, but I actually checked out the source material. It's a very brief reference, but I'm confident it's referring to Wan Kuei, though Cainite refugees would also make sense.

                          And my wariness comes down to two words: cultural appropriation. Just because it's pretty common in White Wolf material doesn't mean I need to thoughtlessly continue that pattern. I'd probably at the minimum need to do a fair amount of research to ensure that I wasn't trivializing something significant in the local Indigenous cultures for the sake of a game. Which isn't to say that I haven't looked into local materials for inspiration, but I've got a lot of work to do there before I figure out what I'm comfortable drawing on and what is better off left alone.

                          Also, I'd very much prefer something other than Baali at this point. In particular, I'd really love to find something that would be outside the "regular" experiences of vampires and werewolves, likely something from an entirely different gameline. One, because I love messy crossovers, and two, because it makes more sense that something like that could remain a mystery to both the Kindred and Garou for such a long time.
                          Last edited by Kharnov; 12-31-2021, 01:34 PM.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
                            Also, I'd very much prefer something other than Baali at this point. In particular, I'd really love to find something that would be outside the "regular" experiences of vampires and werewolves, likely something from an entirely different gameline. One, because I love messy crossovers, and two, because it makes more sense that something like that could remain a mystery to both the Kindred and Garou for such a long time.
                            I would suggest a powerful Chimera with the Wyrd Rede. Even the Fianna don't really know much about Chimeras, and the ones that can affect the Autumn World are exceedingly rare. Both game lines have very little understanding of the Dreaming.

                            And as a bonus, they don't relate to the Umbra the same way as spirits, even if you assume the Dreaming as a Zone or something. While in their chimerical state they are immaterial and invisible, but still pretty much in this world, and the rules to be able to see and interact them are pretty bizarre for both lines.


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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                              I would suggest a powerful Chimera with the Wyrd Rede. Even the Fianna don't really know much about Chimeras, and the ones that can affect the Autumn World are exceedingly rare. Both game lines have very little understanding of the Dreaming.

                              And as a bonus, they don't relate to the Umbra the same way as spirits, even if you assume the Dreaming as a Zone or something. While in their chimerical state they are immaterial and invisible, but still pretty much in this world, and the rules to be able to see and interact them are pretty bizarre for both lines.
                              Thanks for the suggestion! Is there a Rede that would provide the draining effect described as afflicting the Garou that visit the city, or would that need to be custom? Changeling is one of the lines I don't know a lot about, which only supports the idea that it would work well as an Outside-Context-Problem

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
                                Thanks for the suggestion! Is there a Rede that would provide the draining effect described as afflicting the Garou that visit the city, or would that need to be custom? Changeling is one of the lines I don't know a lot about, which only supports the idea that it would work well as an Outside-Context-Problem
                                From the top of my head, I think there's at least two that can do something to that effect, but you can adapt many of them to have something with such description through different mechanics.

                                I like Chimera for this sort of thing because of how distinct are the mechanics they operate with, yet they're relatively easy to figure how others would interact with them. They're intuitive mechanics for the reader, but extremely counter-intuitive for the characters of other lines.


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