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  • Kharnov
    started a topic Vancouver: 20th Anniversary Edition

    Vancouver: 20th Anniversary Edition

    Greetings everyone!

    I am starting to work on an updated version of the "WtA: Dark Alliance: Vancouver" setting, set pretty close to current day (probably a few years behind just to make paralleling RL history and WoD history easier when I'm so inclined). Still very much a work in progress; most of my focus so far has been on developing 20-25 years worth of "history" and figuring out how the political landscape might have changed in the mean time. Generally enjoying the canon/metaplot of cWoD, I'm interested in trying to portray a reasonable progression of events. The issue is that there's very little source material to work with; aside from the original book, there's just a handful of references to everything blowing up in the faces of the Garou scattered through a few books. So my first question would be whether or not anyone could point me to published material referencing Vancouver other than what's already cited on the fan wiki? In particular, there's reference to the local Garou losing their "urban caern," but I don't know if it every specifically says whether they mean the Great Caern, Smiling Buddha, or both? At the moment I'm imagining the surviving Glass Walkers have held onto it and turned it into a fortress.

    Of course, I'd also like to hear people's thoughts on what I've thought up for the setting so far. What little information Revised provides on the fallout of the Covenant collapsing seems to imply that the Garou were mostly pushed out of the city, and were contemplating their counterattack. My thought is that pretty much all of the 2000s consisted of a nasty-as-hell urban guerrilla war between the werewolves and vampires. Most of the hostilities finally start cooling off around the end of the decade, with both factions too worn out to keep actively pursuing conflict and retreating more into their respective territories.

    I imagine the vampires coming out of things better than the werewolves, for a number of reasons. The Garou are having to contended with the expanding Pentex presence in the city (centered on the Diefenbaker Casino of course). They are also dealing with a lot of nasty in-fighting that resulted from the loss of the Great Caern and the Compact of cooperation; the more warlike tribes clashing with the urban tribes over violent action against the human population now that there's no rules against it, while the Uktena and the Wendigo are PISSED and blame the "Wyrmcomers" as much or more than the Leeches for the loss of the Great Caern. All of this impedes their ability to work collectively to drive the Kindred out of the city. That said, this conflict has been HELL for Siegfried. The prestige that allowed him to maintain his independent Elysium-city was largely built on the reputation of the Covenant with the local Lupines; while the loss of the haven that Vancouver represented is upsetting, many elder vampires are quite happy to mock and deride Siegfried's "arrogance" now that the whole thing has blown up in his face. While most of Cainite society has been too occupied with other matters to capitalize on Siegfried's vulnerability, the Prince now has a group of Anarchs that have set up shop in the growing city of Surrey with no regard for his authority even within Vancouver. The combination of Lupine violence and Anarchs challenging his authority have driven the Prince even further into tyranny, with the ranks of his "Enforcers" expanding regularly, and them becoming less fearful of reprisal for abusing the authority he grants them. For the Kindred, Vancouver has become less of a safe haven for the affluent and more of a messy backwater to disappear into.

    The Garou situation started taking a bit of a turn for the better when the Bone Gnawers manage to rediscover one of the "lost caerns," which had belonged to septs wiped out by European disease and then lost to time. However, their local sept, the Underdogs, don't hold it for long before it is taken over by an alliance of other tribes led by the Shadow Lords, who managed to turn the failure of the Covenant into an opportunity to advance their own position over the local Silver Fangs. Leading a new multi-tribal sept centered around the recovered caern, they now have to bear the responsibility for fixing the mess that allowed them to seize power. Meanwhile, the Uktena also managed to find another of the lost caerns, forming a sept with the Wendigo and largely cutting themselves off from the other tribes. Finally, as noted above, the Glass Walkers (in my current version) have managed to hold onto a small urban caern in the downtown, and almost all of their focus is on keeping what they have. Whether or not the Bone Gnawers find a new caern for themselves again or not is a question I haven't answered yet.

    The big twist is the newest group to emerge. Known as "the Second Covenant," it is a small budding alliance of Garou and Kindred. Whereas the first Covenant was a treaty between the Garou Nation and all of the Kindred of Vancouver, the Second Covenant is closer to being a Garou sept that allows a limited form of membership to some Kindred. It began as the brainchild of a Child of Gaia (of course) who had learned of Kindred pursuit of the state of Golconda, and how some believe that achieving it would allow a Kindred to become human again. The Second Covenant was thus thought up as an option for kinfolk who had been turned into vampires, or others who might seek to escape from their condition and become human again. In return for providing a haven away from the machinations of the Jyhad, these Kindred would have to be willing to help the Garou in their struggle, whether that help come in the form of resources, information, or combat. Outside of a handful of Children of Gaia, the supporters of the Second Covenant are almost exclusively Bone Gnawers, with motivations far less benign and more practical. In their head, every vampire that can be converted into attacking the servants of the Wyrm is one less precious Garou life being put in danger; in truth, even the Children of Gaia supporting the Second Covenant believe that sacrificing oneself in service of Gaia provides a better shot at redemption for the Kindred than continuing their undead existence in the hope of a cure, but they're at least able to forgive that selfish weakness if the vampires can make themselves useful. Up until recently, there was pretty much no question among the other tribes that the Second Covenant was an irredeemably horrible idea, but that changed when an alliance between them, the Underdogs, and the Corporate Raiders (the local Glass Walker sept) managed to take down the Diefenbaker Casino a few years ago. While still generally reviled, and expected to be as much of a catastrophe as the first Covenant, the universal cries for their destruction have mostly faded.

    (One potential plot I'm imagining involves a Bone Gnawer who takes this idea further, having Pentex employees and other human servants of the Wyrm be turned into vampiric cannon fodder, brainwashed with the blood bond into becoming expendable shock troops. It began with the idea of stealing the Sabbat's tactic of mass-Embraces, but I felt that even a crazy Bone Gnawer would see that as being too risky.)

    Beyond general input and inquiring about sources, there is one particular technical question I would like some help addressing. The combat abilities of Garou and Cainites are not at all scaled against one another. Generally speaking, I'm fine with that, but there are at least one or two instances where the ability of a vampire to stand against a werewolf head-to-head matters to me. In particular, Siegfried; how well could the Prince of Vancouver do in a one-on-one against a Garou? It depends on the particular Garou of course, I'm just looking for input from people that have far more experience with the mechanics than I do to give me an idea.

    More generally, just how much physical augmentation via Disciplines does a Cainite need to hold their own against a typical werewolf, on top of Protean 2? There are Kindred described as regularly hunting Lupines, like Xaviar or Talley, but I can't be sure if the stats they have listed are actually up to par; alternatively, characters like Mithras (pre-diablerie) or Baba Yaga are way too far above average to use as the bar. I'm contemplating my own Cainite Garou Hunter as a possible antagonist, and some help figuring out the abilities he would realistically need would be appreciated. I'm not looking for someone capable of taking out an entire pack on their own, but would enjoy proving themselves against a Garou one-on-one after neutralizing their allies. There may be threads already addressing this question in detail, please feel free to just link me.

    Thanks for checking this out, everyone!


    P.S. I'm the masochist who chose to try and do a "crossover" rather than just focus on one game line, so any recommendations strictly along the lines of "don't do crossover" are a waste of everyone's time ^_^ By all means, tell me how brutally difficult and annoying it will be, but don't tell me not to do it. And similarly, I'm committed to a full/hard crossover, with Garou using Garou stats and Cainites using Cainite stats, not the watered-down versions presented for NPCs in each game line.

  • Baaldam
    replied
    Originally posted by Kharnov View Post

    It was a while back, but I actually checked out the source material. It's a very brief reference, but I'm confident it's referring to Wan Kuei, though Cainite refugees would also make sense.

    And my wariness comes down to two words: cultural appropriation. Just because it's pretty common in White Wolf material doesn't mean I need to thoughtlessly continue that pattern. I'd probably at the minimum need to do a fair amount of research to ensure that I wasn't trivializing something significant in the local Indigenous cultures for the sake of a game. Which isn't to say that I haven't looked into local materials for inspiration, but I've got a lot of work to do there before I figure out what I'm comfortable drawing on and what is better off left alone.
    Not to mention there's a bunch of things about that paragraph that don't add up very well. For starters because "smuggling people for intelligence-gathering/espionage" seems like a sort of international intrigue more in synch with Quincunx retribution jingoism than what i remember seeing on the japanese Ujis in the books themselves. Also, the HK expatriates mixing up with the japanese, when they could far more easily blend into the much larger mortal population of English, Scottish, Irish and chinese origins, well, that sounds a tad counter-intuitive to me.


    Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
    Also, I'd very much prefer something other than Baali at this point. In particular, I'd really love to find something that would be outside the "regular" experiences of vampires and werewolves, likely something from an entirely different gameline. One, because I love messy crossovers, and two, because it makes more sense that something like that could remain a mystery to both the Kindred and Garou for such a long time.
    Well, i guess wraiths/risen or some rogue-mutated Familiar resulting from an awakened dancing too far with Paradox might be fun to tinker with, but no big ideas to add in that subject really. Monteparnas' suggestions do seem pretty solid to riff from if one is familiar with the CtD stuff.
    Last edited by Baaldam; 01-02-2022, 07:51 PM.

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  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
    Thanks for the suggestion! Is there a Rede that would provide the draining effect described as afflicting the Garou that visit the city, or would that need to be custom? Changeling is one of the lines I don't know a lot about, which only supports the idea that it would work well as an Outside-Context-Problem
    From the top of my head, I think there's at least two that can do something to that effect, but you can adapt many of them to have something with such description through different mechanics.

    I like Chimera for this sort of thing because of how distinct are the mechanics they operate with, yet they're relatively easy to figure how others would interact with them. They're intuitive mechanics for the reader, but extremely counter-intuitive for the characters of other lines.

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  • Kharnov
    replied
    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    I would suggest a powerful Chimera with the Wyrd Rede. Even the Fianna don't really know much about Chimeras, and the ones that can affect the Autumn World are exceedingly rare. Both game lines have very little understanding of the Dreaming.

    And as a bonus, they don't relate to the Umbra the same way as spirits, even if you assume the Dreaming as a Zone or something. While in their chimerical state they are immaterial and invisible, but still pretty much in this world, and the rules to be able to see and interact them are pretty bizarre for both lines.
    Thanks for the suggestion! Is there a Rede that would provide the draining effect described as afflicting the Garou that visit the city, or would that need to be custom? Changeling is one of the lines I don't know a lot about, which only supports the idea that it would work well as an Outside-Context-Problem

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  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
    Also, I'd very much prefer something other than Baali at this point. In particular, I'd really love to find something that would be outside the "regular" experiences of vampires and werewolves, likely something from an entirely different gameline. One, because I love messy crossovers, and two, because it makes more sense that something like that could remain a mystery to both the Kindred and Garou for such a long time.
    I would suggest a powerful Chimera with the Wyrd Rede. Even the Fianna don't really know much about Chimeras, and the ones that can affect the Autumn World are exceedingly rare. Both game lines have very little understanding of the Dreaming.

    And as a bonus, they don't relate to the Umbra the same way as spirits, even if you assume the Dreaming as a Zone or something. While in their chimerical state they are immaterial and invisible, but still pretty much in this world, and the rules to be able to see and interact them are pretty bizarre for both lines.

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  • Kharnov
    replied
    Originally posted by White Wolf Wiki
    The Kuei-jin have a small community in the local Japanese population. Their sponsors are House Bishamon, who use the wave of immigration to smuggle their agents to the city. The main purpose of the Kuei-jin population within the city is intelligence gathering. Since 1997, expatriates from Hong Kong have fled to Vancouver to avoid the bloody conflict between the Righteous Devils of Kowloon and the Endless Whirlwind who both fight over control of the future of the Flame Court. So far, House Bishamon has accepted these refugees, but worries if the increased Kuei-jin presence could draw out hostile reactions from other factions, especially since the latest acts of aggression from the Quincunx.
    It was a while back, but I actually checked out the source material. It's a very brief reference, but I'm confident it's referring to Wan Kuei, though Cainite refugees would also make sense.

    And my wariness comes down to two words: cultural appropriation. Just because it's pretty common in White Wolf material doesn't mean I need to thoughtlessly continue that pattern. I'd probably at the minimum need to do a fair amount of research to ensure that I wasn't trivializing something significant in the local Indigenous cultures for the sake of a game. Which isn't to say that I haven't looked into local materials for inspiration, but I've got a lot of work to do there before I figure out what I'm comfortable drawing on and what is better off left alone.

    Also, I'd very much prefer something other than Baali at this point. In particular, I'd really love to find something that would be outside the "regular" experiences of vampires and werewolves, likely something from an entirely different gameline. One, because I love messy crossovers, and two, because it makes more sense that something like that could remain a mystery to both the Kindred and Garou for such a long time.
    Last edited by Kharnov; 12-31-2021, 01:34 PM.

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  • Baaldam
    replied
    Originally posted by Kharnov View Post

    It's not like I'm super committed to Yokoshi even being in the city anymore. But House Bishamon is a group of Japanese Wan Kuei (an "uji" of "Gaki") who are very briefly described as being present in the city; the Hong Kongers are newcomers who are complicating matters.
    Big question - are those Hong Kongers Wan Kuei that didn't fit with the chinese elders for spiritual or political reasons or are we talking of the HK kindred that jumped ship with the end of british authority over the territory? Because those are two quite different groups that can bring much different things to the table and in the case of the later you might be able to pilfer some NPC ideas from 1st ed a World of Darkness.


    Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
    There may have been mention of a caern, I can't recall. My interest in Victoria/Vancouver Island mostly has to do with the Mysterious-Something that leaves most visiting Garou looking like the life has been sucked out of them afterwards, and Kindred just plain disappearing. I've thought about digging into local mythology for inspiration, but I'm a bit wary about that.
    Any reason in particular beside satanists being easy to relate to Baali, whose material is more acessible to a VtM ST than MtA or WtA stuff?
    Last edited by Baaldam; 12-31-2021, 01:08 PM.

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  • Kharnov
    replied
    Originally posted by Baaldam View Post


    The point with that idea is that Yokoshi would still be an outside observer as written and his agenda still the same, main difference is that "his origin is a lie" makes it so you have to rework less of his background, that is quite outdated and incompatible with the Wan Kuei in more than a few parts.Also, his masters and contacts far more immediate and close by matter than everybody might be expecting, what's not bad either. But well, it's your game and totally up to your preferences anyway. Being japanese in the first place how much contact Yokoshi can be expected to have to have or not with any Hong Kong emigrees is very much up for debate i guess.


    On an unrelated note, i think the Dark Alliance book mentions in passing something about a caern that might have existed but been lost in Victoria Island, so whatever is happening there could connect to the wyrm or elements of local native american supernatural. Just a thought.
    It's not like I'm super committed to Yokoshi even being in the city anymore. But House Bishamon is a group of Japanese Wan Kuei (an "uji" of "Gaki") who are very briefly described as being present in the city; the Hong Kongers are newcomers who are complicating matters.

    There may have been mention of a caern, I can't recall. My interest in Victoria/Vancouver Island mostly has to do with the Mysterious-Something that leaves most visiting Garou looking like the life has been sucked out of them afterwards, and Kindred just plain disappearing. I've thought about digging into local mythology for inspiration, but I'm a bit wary about that.

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  • Baaldam
    replied
    Originally posted by Kharnov View Post

    I agree, I was thinking that the It-X/Progenitor Amalgams would likely be only one or two Enlightened Agents, the rest Extraordinary Citizens or regular scientists. The Syndic presence is probably a bit bigger, just because it's already pre-established that they have more of a presence in the area.

    I'm honestly not a fan Yokoshi-as-Technocrat-infiltrator. I'd prefer to stick to the spirit of his presence rather than radically twist it to something else. If he's around, he'll either be a Gaki or a more up-to-date example of a Cainite from Asia. The fact that there is some discussion of both Gaki and refugees from Hong Kong entering the city gives me stuff to work with. Not exactly sure how I want to handle the Wan Kuei yet, tbh.

    The point with that idea is that Yokoshi would still be an outside observer as written and his agenda still the same, main difference is that "his origin is a lie" makes it so you have to rework less of his background, that is quite outdated and incompatible with the Wan Kuei in more than a few parts.Also, his masters and contacts far more immediate and close by matter than everybody might be expecting, what's not bad either. But well, it's your game and totally up to your preferences anyway. Being japanese in the first place how much contact Yokoshi can be expected to have to have or not with any Hong Kong emigrees is very much up for debate i guess.


    On an unrelated note, i think the Dark Alliance book mentions in passing something about a caern that might have existed but been lost in Victoria Island, so whatever is happening there could connect to the wyrm or elements of local native american supernatural. Just a thought.
    Last edited by Baaldam; 12-31-2021, 12:49 AM.

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  • Kharnov
    replied
    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    I think a Techie presence is good, but should remain relatively small, at least on Enlightened agents. One or two members of each Convention is more than enough to make a lot of noise (or none at all), coordinate and empower a lot of Citizens, and generally make their presence felt without risk of stealing the show.

    Corax are certainly a good and very welcome addition, and I would actually implement Baaldam's bad idea and have Yokoshi as actually a Technocratic infiltrator of some kind. That wouldn't be actually a retcon: it would turn the original depiction into something that makes sense to the current lore. And anyone with some experience with Asian Kindred or Wan-Kuei would notice that things don't add up with this guy.
    I agree, I was thinking that the It-X/Progenitor Amalgams would likely be only one or two Enlightened Agents, the rest Extraordinary Citizens or regular scientists. The Syndic presence is probably a bit bigger, just because it's already pre-established that they have more of a presence in the area.

    I'm honestly not a fan Yokoshi-as-Technocrat-infiltrator. I'd prefer to stick to the spirit of his presence rather than radically twist it to something else. If he's around, he'll either be a Gaki or a more up-to-date example of a Cainite from Asia. The fact that there is some discussion of both Gaki and refugees from Hong Kong entering the city gives me stuff to work with. Not exactly sure how I want to handle the Wan Kuei yet, tbh.

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  • monteparnas
    replied
    I think a Techie presence is good, but should remain relatively small, at least on Enlightened agents. One or two members of each Convention is more than enough to make a lot of noise (or none at all), coordinate and empower a lot of Citizens, and generally make their presence felt without risk of stealing the show.

    Corax are certainly a good and very welcome addition, and I would actually implement Baaldam's bad idea and have Yokoshi as actually a Technocratic infiltrator of some kind. That wouldn't be actually a retcon: it would turn the original depiction into something that makes sense to the current lore. And anyone with some experience with Asian Kindred or Wan-Kuei would notice that things don't add up with this guy.

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  • Kharnov
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
    I would definitely add Corax. The WW books always mentioned the Pacific Northwest as one of the rare strongholds of the Corax (along with England and London), and since the Great Caern does have Raven as its totem, it makes sense the Corax would be there. In fact, it should be the one caern the Corax visit most frequently. I'd make it part of the sept's pact with the caern totem that they have to welcome the Corax and never harm one.
    The central tenets of the agreement that the Garou have regarding the Great Caern (access to all, no fighting nearby) would probably mostly provide the Corax access without specifying them, but I don't see any reason that a Level 5 Caern couldn't impose additional conditions, and it would make sense for the totem to ensure that its children have guaranteed access to at least one Level 5 Caern in the world. Maintaining connections with the Corax would also be good for the Garou, help keep them posted on what's happening in the wider world.

    Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
    "I need your clothes, your boots, and your walking stick."
    xD I see what you did there xP

    Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
    Hello, here we are again.

    About the NWO, i can see them possibly taking an interest in the ups & downs of Werewolf-Vampire interactions in the region, for research purposes to say the least, if not outright experiment with some bits of social engineering through cat's paw, intelligence manipulation and the occasional stealth intervention here and there. Learning what buttons to push to get the monsters fighting each other, their respective strengths in different arenas and how much one rise tensions or not before it spills out too far into mundane society are all quite invaluable information the NWO might glean from Vancouver's metropolitan area and possibly make strategic applications of across urban centers throughout the whole world.

    Knowledge of how the other supernaturals think, work, main belief systems, political factions and so on could go a long way towards helping the NWO's agendas as a whole. Intel like this might go a long way toward avoiding escalation disasters like the "solar nukes for Ravnos" mess from Revised era, or at least understanding how they come to be, among other things.
    Just when you think you're free

    The NWO definitely has a lot to learn potentially, but they are hampered by the fact that they are trying to keep their presence a secret while the Syndicate have significant operations in the city. One of the more interesting features is that the lead Syndic in the city was described as having a friendly relationship with Siegfried, one that included a "gentlemen's agreement" not to dig into each other's secrets, since they both have been able to piece together that the other is definitely more than just a normal businessman. Siegfried's support for the Dief (which the Garou know is sitting on top of a Pit) is one of the things that contributed to the Covenant between the Garou and Kindred breaking down IIRC (that and one of their leaders having his pelt hanging from one of the walls...).

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  • Baaldam
    replied
    Ok, an hilariously bad idea of a retcon just crossed my mind.....

    What if Yokoshi was the NWO's infiltrator among Vancouver vampires, the whole "observer with peculiar sense of honor from obscure kindred clan of Japan, trying to study the Lupine-Kindred peace to learn from" story simply an elaborate rationale to cover up the power replication limitations and AI logic issues of a modified Hit Mark in trying to pass itself as a vampire?
    Last edited by Baaldam; 12-29-2021, 01:20 AM.

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  • Baaldam
    replied
    Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
    Bump bump bump it up!

    In all seriousness, I found another mention of Vancouver in source material that I felt like sharing, along with potentially discussing some of the ideas that I've had as a result.

    Turns out, in the Revised NWO Convention Book, they mention an Operative Cell based in Vancouver, including an old HIT Mark that pretends to be a grandpa, lol.

    Which led me to consider the idea that the Technocracy's presence in the city may have expanded over the years. Previously it had become something of an HQ for the Syndicate in the Pacific Northwest (the Dief was designed in part to be an operation that all Syndicate Methodologies could participate in), and I was wondering if the Syndicate might try to strengthen their connections with Iteration X and the Progenitors by helping to fund some modest research Constructs in the area while they continue expanding their own presence. Meanwhile the Void Engineers would mostly stay down in Seattle since they have a shipyard there, while the NWO are *officially* not present in the city since the local Syndics had absolutely no interest in inviting/funding them due to the rivalry between the Conventions; *unofficially* they have a Cell nearby capable of keeping an eye on the Syndicate in addition to being able to respond to other events further north if necessary.

    Curious about what people might think of the idea Like it, dislike it? What might the implications be for the local Kindred and Garou populations?

    Also, something I've recently considered is including a Corax population in the city. The totem of the Great Caern is Raven, and there are a *lot* of crows in the city.

    Hello, here we are again.

    About the NWO, i can see them possibly taking an interest in the ups & downs of Werewolf-Vampire interactions in the region, for research purposes to say the least, if not outright experiment with some bits of social engineering through cat's paw, intelligence manipulation and the occasional stealth intervention here and there. Learning what buttons to push to get the monsters fighting each other, their respective strengths in different arenas and how much one rise tensions or not before it spills out too far into mundane society are all quite invaluable information the NWO might glean from Vancouver's metropolitan area and possibly make strategic applications of across urban centers throughout the whole world.

    Knowledge of how the other supernaturals think, work, main belief systems, political factions and so on could go a long way towards helping the NWO's agendas as a whole. Intel like this might go a long way toward avoiding escalation disasters like the "solar nukes for Ravnos" mess from Revised era, or at least understanding how they come to be, among other things.


    Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
    I would definitely add Corax. The WW books always mentioned the Pacific Northwest as one of the rare strongholds of the Corax (along with England and London), and since the Great Caern does have Raven as its totem, it makes sense the Corax would be there. In fact, it should be the one caern the Corax visit most frequently. I'd make it part of the sept's pact with the caern totem that they have to welcome the Corax and never harm one.
    Good points indeed and having the Corax as another shadowy group of interest involved in the city's vicissitudes can only add to the potential mayhem in balancing it all.

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  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
    Bump bump bump it up!

    In all seriousness, I found another mention of Vancouver in source material that I felt like sharing, along with potentially discussing some of the ideas that I've had as a result.

    Turns out, in the Revised NWO Convention Book, they mention an Operative Cell based in Vancouver, including an old HIT Mark that pretends to be a grandpa, lol.
    "I need your clothes, your boots, and your walking stick."

    Leave a comment:

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