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  • Wan Gui: Advanced Disciplines?

    So does anyone think their advanced disciplines are broken?

    They only appear in KotE Companion except Dance of Shiva in Bone Flower Book. And to be honest I think they’re... well, poorly designed. They’re rough, totally.

    IIRC The define of their disciplines in Rulebook is: more expensive (level*8, not *7, and you can’t buy cheaper with something like clan disciplines), more versatile (they are slightly more greater and have more functions than same-level similar kindred disciplines). Basic disciplines in that book totally follow this, but advanced ones in Companion... well.

    And authorities didn’t even write the advanced ones of some disciplines. Godbodies of Blood and Silk, Those in Heresy ways...

    So have anybody tried to fix or reshape them? Can you share some ideas?

  • #2
    I've been saying that about Cry of Blood in particular for years, as it can easily lead to dozens of levels of aggravated damage that automatically hit for next to no cost (Was it meant to be Dharma + successes instead of Dharma x successes?). Some others are just underwhelming, like the ones that produce weapons, which seem like they shouldn't be higher-level effects if they're just going to be a couple steps above claws, if that.

    The alternate shintai from the Companion are also intriguing possibilities that seem like wastes of potential for not being defined, but I haven't really had a unifying idea of where to go with it, especially since Beast Shintai leaps around and turns into a Soul Discipline in Revised for some reason.

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    • #3
      Discussion about their advanced ones are rare.

      I post one:
      http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...-kue-jin/page4

      Their elder disciplines are totally weaker than kindreds’ (in standard ones they are greater). And the higher the levels, the gap bigger.

      Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
      I've been saying that about Cry of Blood in particular for years, as it can easily lead to dozens of levels of aggravated damage that automatically hit for next to no cost (Was it meant to be Dharma + successes instead of Dharma x successes?).
      Well, Undead Rabbit in that thread had said this is not that rare in Kindred (Jaws of the Dracon (Koldunic Sorcery 7, all five Koldunic Ways at 5), Quietus 5 and 7 can handle this, WW always favors vampires making more money!)

      Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
      Some others are just underwhelming, like the ones that produce weapons, which seem like they shouldn't be higher-level effects if they're just going to be a couple steps above claws, if that.
      Some of them don’t worth their levels. They just add a few effects and the levels are higher (Remember Wan Gui disciplines are very expensive, and if you want to learn the additional effects or combo disciplines you must learn those disciplines again.)

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
        Discussion about their advanced ones are rare.

        I post one:
        http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...-kue-jin/page4

        Their elder disciplines are totally weaker than kindreds’ (in standard ones they are greater). And the higher the levels, the gap bigger.


        Well, Undead Rabbit in that thread had said this is not that rare in Kindred (Jaws of the Dracon (Koldunic Sorcery 7, all five Koldunic Ways at 5), Quietus 5 and 7 can handle this, WW always favors vampires making more money!)
        Yeah, there was always money to be made in publishing Blowshitupus. I generally take it as an indication that the whole lot of them need trimming back.

        Some of them don’t worth their levels. They just add a few effects and the levels are higher (Remember Wan Gui disciplines are very expensive, and if you want to learn the additional effects or combo disciplines you must learn those disciplines again.)
        You'd need to add on an awful lot to "make a club out of rock" to make it a Level 7, though.

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        • #5
          Elder discplines either are too powerful or a waste of time. KOTE ones are pretty par for the course there..

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
            Yeah, there was always money to be made in publishing Blowshitupus. I generally take it as an indication that the whole lot of them need trimming back.
            I complain this from time to time,

            Vampires are always owerpowerful IN ALL WAYS, compared to other splats, their disciplines is just an aspect.

            They have the most stuff to empower it (either standard or elder ones), making their disciplines very powerful. Their elder disciplines (6+) is especially wealthy (and many npcs have a great amount of elder powers).

            Their crossover rules depend on levels, making they have a great advantage (Garou reache Rank 5 is much more difficult than a vampire have 5-dots discipline). And now authorities want to make all splats same-level power balance... well.

            They are simple, their disciplines are simple and violence, making it very effective in some ways. And they don’t have much connection with spirit worlds, also making them have great advantages occasionally (Remember spirit-related powers, like wan gui disciplines always require you roll against local Gauntlet, they may not that effective compared to kindred ones!)

            All I can recall now.

            Originally posted by Lian View Post
            Elder discplines either are too powerful or a waste of time. KOTE ones are pretty par for the course there..
            I can see perfunctory and curtness there.

            In fact no further stuff about them. Some disciplines like Godbodies of Fourth Age which should have elder version are also disrupted because of no expansion. In my opinion I want to see more about original wan xian powers. To lesser disciplines in Heretical Dharmas, I’m not sure they have advanced ones or not.
            Last edited by Rock113; 01-10-2020, 11:50 PM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
              I complain this from time to time,

              Vampires are always owerpowerful IN ALL WAYS, compared to other splats, their disciplines is just an aspect.
              Including how it takes until about Protean 8 until one can match Crinos piece for piece? Because after going through a lot of Disciplines, the "overwhelming power" seemed to be overwhelmingly overblown. Mokole can start out with a form that can utterly wreck some lick with Vicissitude 9, though that, too, might be re-addressed as an anomaly of hands-off rules being too hands-off. Just five Archid traits into Tall, and boom! The Mokole towers 96 meters over everyone...

              They have the most stuff to empower it (either standard or elder ones), making their disciplines very powerful. Their elder disciplines (6+) is especially wealthy (and many npcs have a great amount of elder powers).

              Their crossover rules depend on levels, making they have a great advantage (Garou reache Rank 5 is much more difficult than a vampire have 5-dots discipline). And now authorities want to make all splats same-level power balance... well.
              I chalk that up to V:tM being extremely and belligerently unreasonable with regard to interaction with the other games. There's no compelling reason for vampires to be more powerful than other monsters, other than to assuage a few bruised egos here and there. The "tradition" for it is paper-thin.

              They are simple, their disciplines are simple and violence, making it very effective in some ways. And they don’t have much connection with spirit worlds, also making them have great advantages occasionally (Remember spirit-related powers, like wan gui disciplines always require you roll against local Gauntlet, they may not that effective compared to kindred ones!)

              All I can recall now.


              I can see perfunctory and curtness there.

              In fact no further stuff about them. Some disciplines like Godbodies of Fourth Age which should have elder version are also disrupted because of no expansion. In my opinion I want to see more about original wan xian powers. To lesser disciplines in Heretical Dharmas, I’m not sure they have advanced ones or not.
              Regrettably, the window for more of the old powers probably closed a while back. Though, I also have difficulty imagining that the WW of the 90s and 2000s would have even provided that, since they regarded certain sections of material as subjects that they would never explore. It was only in the 20th anniversary editions that this attitude was overturned, and that was primarily in how White Howlers were detailed and got their own pre-Revised style tribebook. There was going to be one for the Bunyip, too, but then ParaWolf happened.

              (Oddly, the Croatan managed to sneak in as officially detailed as part of an aborted arc of late 2nd edition where W:tA was going to have a secondary historical setting in the pre-Columbian Americas. Empires of the Jaguar, regrettably, also never happened.)

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              • #8
                Well, and their advanced rites scatter in all books, mainly dharma books and blood and silk, some are... really interesting, but most of them are very difficult and costly:

                Devil Tiger:
                Ritual of Heavenly Defilement (Level 6): This power can be used to corrupt a dragon nest.

                Bone Flower:
                The Inauspicious Gate (Level 8): This can allow one enter Hell and determine which, much like Hellweaving 9. But who will practice it?...

                Thousand Whispers (And most of their advanced powers are almost sucide because of their traditions...):
                Loose the Wandering Spirit (Level 6): Make you can Yulan-jin (a gui ren must change body from time to time), not that practical

                Embracing the True Death (Level 7): Make you a 5th gens bodihesattva, but you will meet final death, very very likely...

                Thrashing Dragon:
                Welcoming the Penangallan (Level 7): one penangallan version of Crowing the Ancestor. You must pass a series of very difficlut tests to become a true "society" penangallan, but you may also die in progress. You can get some advantages if you succeed, not bad.

                Resplendent Crane:
                Naming the Ancestor (Level 7): See above, another version of Crowing the Ancestor.

                Blood and Silk (Most of them disappeared or changed, no more accessible in modern):
                General Rites:
                Crowning the Ancestor (Level 7): See above. In my opinion I think gui ren who can pass this kind of test must be very rare, you must be permitted by other ancestors first, then take the test.

                Devil-Tiger:
                Memories to the Merciless Ministers (Level 7): A true plot-device, impressive and interesting power. You can ask the ministers of the Heaven to help you by writing a memorial (also costly), the effects is up to ST. But what's the ministers of the Heaven? In my opnion they may be the Angels from Demon, according to the Hunter.

                Resplendent Crane:
                Purify of Rice and Garlic (Level 6): Only one (as far as I can recall) power gifting you True Faith artificially. An one-way ticket. Most of your organs are removed, and you must have 50 successes in crafting status, but you will only get first level of True Faith if you finally succeed... this will be lost if you fail a soul state roll, and you are screwed.

                Shadow Song:
                The Righteous Hunt (Level 6): Mark and punish victims subtly.

                Thousand Whispers:
                Reeds in the Cycle of Seasons (Level 7): Another sucide rite...

                Thrashing Dragon:
                The Breathing Mask (Level 7): Make you a "fake" living mortal again... expensive literally.
                Last edited by Rock113; 01-28-2020, 12:03 PM.

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                • #9
                  They need an advanced reworking of the powers, ala Changeling C20 corebook.


                  It is a time for great deeds!

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                  • #10
                    A lot of elder Disciplines really work better as upper-end 1-5 ones. Stuff in the 6+ range is harder to use in games.


                    Blood and Bourbon, my New Orleans-based Vampire chronicle.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by False Epiphany View Post
                      A lot of elder Disciplines really work better as upper-end 1-5 ones. Stuff in the 6+ range is harder to use in games.
                      One of the old world of darkness isms is that since powers were rated 1-5 and you couldn't get alternate powers till 6 th level they made powers that would fit in the 1-5 levels as over 6 because it was the only way to get alternate powers, I'm looking at you double jump and hand prints in concrete potence powers.

                      But the Wan Gui powers were made early like Arcanoi in that their meat and potatoes was alternate basic powers... so they really screwed up with higher tier powers... Look I'm an Arhat and my boss power is turn into a tree!


                      It is a time for great deeds!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                        One of the old world of darkness isms is that since powers were rated 1-5 and you couldn't get alternate powers till 6 th level they made powers that would fit in the 1-5 levels as over 6 because it was the only way to get alternate powers, I'm looking at you double jump and hand prints in concrete potence powers.

                        But the Wan Gui powers were made early like Arcanoi in that their meat and potatoes was alternate basic powers... so they really screwed up with higher tier powers... Look I'm an Arhat and my boss power is turn into a tree!
                        In some ways 5E limits disciplines up to level 5 is not that bad. If I really need advanced disciplines, I will leave two another level at most. Level 6 for Methseulah, level 7 for Antes...

                        As Saur Ops Specialist said above, in older editions "overpowered" 6+ powers always become overblown, they seem to be much... more silly.

                        I think M20 sphere magick deals this better. They make level 1-5 reach 99.9%, and leave archspheres an extremely option. For me I will make spheres up to 7 dots. 6 dots make impossible possible, and 7 dots become completely plot device, just like 10 dots disciplines.

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                        • #13
                          I like some of the fan ideas for Archspheres where its simpler, and it makes weaker magic easier while also allowing for impossible stuff.


                          It is a time for great deeds!

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                          • #14
                            Yeah. The higher level discipline stuff seems to be a remnant from the earlier days (2nd editon systems) whereas with Revised and such they wanted to move away from that (and most of the subsequent ones moved away from stuff like Elder/Methuselah disciplines, Archspheres, etc.) Attributes might still get to high levels (see MtR and their powers tied to hekau and/or their Balance score) but as far as special power go they capped at 5 in most cases like abilities (Demon and Hunter primarily, though Mage Revised moved away from Archspheres. Although again Mummy seemed to be the exception here as you could reach higher levels of Hekau with their revised equivalent, and the Shih in Time of Judgement had higher level powers too.

                            Wtih V5 I've started thinking diversity of powers and versatility is the way to go (lateral growth more than vertacal growth. Other systems could simulate that in other ways (Demon tried doing that with the Earthbound too IIRc. They could have the same lores as Fallen but they had more options for boosting the parameters with their faith)

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