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  • More about Cainites in the Middle Kingdom?

    First of all, this is set on a WoD which the whole KotE STILL EXISTS, my original attempt IS NOT to build a world the KotE is non-exist and replaced with Cainites, thank you all guys, this forum has many great posts about this.

    So we all know cainitesin the Middle Kingdom aren't as quiet as Wan Gui say , they do exist there all the time but not in great number, though.

    I know some books concerning this, Wind from the East, Blood and Silk, Shadow Wars do have some information. We all know Wu Zao, Anda, Ravnos, Nagaraja, and Giovanni, Tremere in modern. But, do you know more fragments about this, which is not that well-known?

    Some I can recall now:
    1. Lasombra Revised has much stuff about the Middle Kingdom. It says they have reached China around 1300 BC, Brujah and Malkavian also arrived around 1100 BC but didn't last long. It even depicts the Sabbat of Southeast Asia (Wow!) and has a chinese NPC who controls the Nanjing Sabbat(!).

    2.
    Bone Flowers Book classify Cainites in Kingdom which they most encounter:

    -The way of the insufferable Flesh Gardeners (Nagaraja)
    -The Hunderd Mask Clowns (Ravnos)
    -The Silent Tiger Brotehrhood
    - The Rut of the Pretentious Geisha
    - The Shameful Path of the Ghost Bully
    - The Inauspicious Order of Blood Devils
    -The Thousand Charming Company Men (Ventrue?)
    Do you everybody known any information like this? It may be difficult to find because it could scatter everywhere...
    Last edited by Rock113; 01-10-2020, 09:58 AM.

  • #2
    You think that's nagajara, Ravnos and Ventrue? Just from the post (I haven't read the book) I'd guess Tzmisce, Malkavian, Gangrel, Toreador/brujah (I don't think they'd be able to tell the difference), Giovanni, Tremere, Ventrue. Though Ravnos are supposed to fight the Cathayans in india, I suspect they wouldn't go so far east to reach china. Even though Nagajara are an eastern lot and I know there's a bunch in korea, bloodlines are extremely small and wouldn't really compete with a clan diaspora. I also see the list you've given as hinting at the kinda vampires that would come east for business opportunities and the expansion of urbanization (Gangrel being the exception).

    But I find KotE to be kinda juvenile. Chinese people calling westerners Geisha? Wouldn't fly. I've always thought that if A Cainite really wanted an asian city, they could take it. In a battle of attrition, they'd win, unless someone could cut the head off the snake. They just have a better time or regaining their losses. Especially when you consider how many of the major cities have had a huge foreign presence.


    V5 is not VTM

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    • #3
      Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
      You think that's nagajara, Ravnos and Ventrue? Just from the post (I haven't read the book) I'd guess Tzmisce.

      Resplendent Crane book, page 40.
      The newly founded Gardenerf of the Fleshsect teaches that the Korean failures show the necessity of breeding better human beings: smarter, more self-crtical and much more subservient.

      The "Nagaraja", as the refugees call themselves.
      But it is very easy to mistake them for
      Tzmisce.


      Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
      Though Ravnos are supposed to fight the Cathayans in india, I suspect they wouldn't go so far east to reach china.
      Well, sorry I haven't post completely, a mistake, it's from my previous quotes.

      Page 48
      The Hunderd Mask Clowns (Recently purged from India)
      And they have a branch called Kalderash which mainly stays in Middle Kingdom.

      https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Ravnos
      Kalderash- a small family of traders that has insinuated itself into the Middle Kingdom and has managed to avoid clashes with the Kuei Jin.
      Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
      Chinese people calling westerners Geisha?
      Sorry we don't call them Geisha, it's a japanese thing.

      We simply call them "Foreigner".
      Last edited by Rock113; 01-10-2020, 11:46 AM.

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      • #4
        well if you go into the earlier editions you had the Gaki and Bushi who were asian-themed Kindred bloodlines. So converting KotE to a diffrent kind of 'kindred' (not necessarily even a bloodline - assume they may have had a different progenitor entirely than Caine. But you could also work it as having a different 2nd or 3rd gen progenitor.)

        I think the main problem is the same thing you had with KotE and Kindred of the Ebony Kingdom (which might be seen as a different attempt to do this) - you can't distill non-European, non-Western cultures into a single book the way WW did back then. Experience or research could (probably) overcome that, but I anticipate it could be time consuming to match the depth of the 'western' Kindred. KotE could be a starting point with that if you correct/expand on errors and add in said 'depth'.]

        Edit: Kindred of the Ebony Kingdom might be useful as reference from a game mechanics standpoint, but just keep in mind that others have pointed out in here how relatively weaker the Ebony Kingdom vampires were compared to western (starting at 14th generation can do that, nevermind the problems with the Aya and Orun unless you creatively reinterpret that like I prefer to.)

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        • #5
          I don't have my copy of Bone Flowers handy, but as a guess from the name, "Rut of the Pretentious Geisha" sounds like a small line of Japanese Toreador, or alternately, a Japanese Setiite ecstatic cult.

          Shameful Path of the Ghost Bully sounds like the Giovanni and their family(s) that operate in China.

          Just personally, I've always suspected that there could be small pockets of surviving Cappadocians in the region. Maybe in places like Tibet, Indonesia, or the like.


          What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
          Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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          • #6
            Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
            I don't have my copy of Bone Flowers handy, but as a guess from the name, "Rut of the Pretentious Geisha" sounds like a small line of Japanese Toreador, or alternately, a Japanese Setiite ecstatic cult.

            Shameful Path of the Ghost Bully sounds like the Giovanni and their family(s) that operate in China.
            My thought is the same as you.

            And I think "The 'Silent' Tiger Brotherhood" may be something like Assamite, which have conflicts with White Tiger Court in northwestern China.

            "The Auspicious 'Order' of 'Blood' Devils" may be Tremere, or something blood magician faction.

            "The Thousand Charming Company Men" may be Venture, in fact Giovanni also resembles this, but the Shameful Path of the Ghost Bully may be more suitable for them.

            And I'm interested in Nanjing and Souteastern Asia Sabbat in Lasombra Revised, I can't find more about them (I wonder why no KotE book mentions them...), just like Wendigo Ainu, which only appears in the Eastern Shapeshfter book...

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Mister_Dunpeal View Post
              well if you go into the earlier editions you had the Gaki and Bushi who were asian-themed Kindred bloodlines.
              No, Gaki and Bushi made more use of Vampire the Masquerade mechanics but they were never Kindred. I mean the Bushi could explicitly increase their generation background by following Garou renown rules. The Gaki were even wierder.

              Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
              And I'm interested in Nanjing and Souteastern Asia Sabbat in Lasombra Revised, I can't find more about them (I wonder why no KotE book mentions them...), just like Wendigo Ainu, which only appears in the Eastern Shapeshfter book...
              It Uktena Ainu.. and is covered in the Uktena book




              Have you tried looking over Sunset empires? it presents a rather interesting take on the situation. To Sum: pre Western imperialism of the 19th century the Kj were MUCH more open to Kindred interactions including welcoming Sabbat masters of their paths to interact so that new dharmic understanding could be gleamed for example there were holdings of the Camarilla outside Hong Kong, and the Ashirra practically mixed regularly with the Golden Courts.

              Between Imperalism leading to the deaths and returns of the vast majority of the next "Generation" of KJ and who are the middle point movers and shakers as of the 20th and 21st century Broadly KJ society became more xenophobic. Under this and the backdrop of ww2 they wiped out the Vast majority of Kindred power in the Middle Kingdom(Because there's this big war going on) then claimed it never existed.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Lian View Post
                It Uktena Ainu.. and is covered in the Uktena book
                Not all that much, though, and at least for the Revised Uktena TB, it doesn't even mention them, instead broadly noting indigenous Siberians as where they keep up in Asia. Most of the word count connecting any tribe to the Ainu went to the Stargazers, and it still amounts to all of a paragraph relating a folk tale about Otter. The 2nd edition-era SG splatbook is even less wordy on the subject of how they keep up in Hokkaido.

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                • #9
                  Well, V5 Camarilla states that Tokyo is a Cam city, with one of the Old Clan in charge (119). However, elsewhere in the book, it's suggested that she is of uncertain age, generation, and lineage; and that she will not submit to having her blood tested. This suggests that she might not be Kindred. Perhaps some sort of treaty between the Cam and the Azure Dragon court? Kindred can only stay a certain amount of time before being forced to Kyoto, so this might be the case.

                  By my own reckoning, I'm guessing that the Kindred population as a percentage of the total population is greater in India proper than in the US, about 50% of that in the rest of SE Asia, and less than 10% of that in China, Japan, and the rest of East Asia, due to higher Kuei Jin influence. What was really needed was an India setting book, with possible forays into the rest of the Middle Kingdom. Source books hinted that one may have been in the pipeline, and V:tR carried out some of the interplay between castes and Clans that would've occurred. With three Clans with major influences in the area, and probably at least seven more with at least partial influence, the area would have made a great source book, fresh with ideas.


                  THWarted

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