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  • #46
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post

    I forgot, was that it? Was it the child born with red hair?
    It wasn't born at all, Afifa (Cairo by Night, pg. 117) was the one being pregnant and having the crescent shaped mark ... etc.

    I hate you, it's 5am here and I'm trying to make sense of it!

    - Saga

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Saga View Post

      It wasn't born at all, Afifa (Cairo by Night, pg. 117) was the one being pregnant and having the crescent shaped mark ... etc.

      I hate you, it's 5am here and I'm trying to make sense of it!

      - Saga
      Wasn’t it born in the Gehenna fiction or in birthing mode?

      Edit: and yeah that was literally me last night! :P


      It is a time for great deeds!

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post

        Wasn’t it born in the Gehenna fiction or in birthing mode?

        Edit: and yeah that was literally me last night! :P

        Mouseferatu never even touched the subject on Gehenna The Final Night novel, but yeah I understand you, no prob.

        Imagination is a very interesting thing.

        - Saga

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        • #49
          Originally posted by blackshade View Post
          ^ Where does the assumption that Absimilliard is weaker then younger antes come from? I would wager he is far more powerful then Tremere or Augustus. Troile could be more powerful but she succefully diablerized the brujah founder and got all his powers. Any other ante that is considered more powerful by most is from the same era as Absimilliard.
          Thats not what I said. I said he was not among the more powerful Antes. Not that he was weaker than the "pretender" Antes, Tremere and Augustus Giovanni.

          Troile is kind of in between the True Antediluvians and the Pretenders. She is also the only person to have slain an Antediluvian where there is no suspicion that it was part of the Antes plan, and it seems generally assumed that she took down the Ante in a fight. After their respective diableries, Tremere and Giovanni turtled behind their minions and new discipline, layering defences. Troile went wandering, and did not seem to worry about other members of the Fourth Generation seeing her as a potential ticket to the Third. And indeed, such ancient blood-gods as Shaitan, Ur-Shulgi, Baba Yaga, et cetera seems to have noped away quietly. All of which indicate that she was among the oldest and most terrifying members of her generation before the diablerie.

          As for where Absimilliard being behind the other true Antediluvians in the power curve, its from Transilvania Chronicles IV, which flatly stated out of character that Absimilliard was being moved around by the more powerful Saulot, who was playing with Absimilliard and using him as a pawn. (Since then, it has come to seem that this was only a fraction of Saulot)
          We could assume that Saulot was just that much more powerful than other Antediluvians, but nothing in his history makes it seem that he is much more powerful than the Antediluvian baseline.

          Absimilliard on the other hand... where the other Antes try for transcendence, devouring God etc, his concerns are his looks, getting back at his ex, and killing his clan. After fifteen thousand years of this, his clans doing perfectly ok, so his ex, and his looks are ..not doing ok.

          Originally posted by Haquim View Post

          AFAIK most of what you wrote is pure conjecture:

          1. Absimilliard embracing the nicktuku to slay the second generation? Where did you read that? No official "truth" on this exists, obviously.

          2. Absimilliard being less powerful than other Antes? I don't think this was ever stated anywhere.

          3. Absimilliard being a "jock"? He was said (no fact, legend) to be a masterful hunter and esoteric interest is not a way to determine the power of an ante in relation to another. The WoD is not D&D.
          Shouldn't you at least have read the Nosferatu clanbook? Or the Nosferatu Libeelus Sanguinus? Its in both and probably other places.

          As for Absimilliard being the jock of the Third Generation, he was said to be a mean bastard, mostly concerned with his looks and his physical pursuit/sport, hunting. His girlfriend was the prettiest of his peer group and he never got over being dumped, so clearly that was important to him. No story, legend orhistory I've ever red has shown him concerned with anything esoteric or philosophical. He couldn't be more of a jock if he tried.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Trollroot View Post

            ---Long list of coherent and organised statements----

            This was a good post explaining Absimilliard position among the third gen, care to analyse [Tzimisce], Zapathasura, Ennoia and [Lasombra] ?

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Trollroot View Post
              His girlfriend was the prettiest of his peer group and he never got over being dumped, so clearly that was important to him.
              Sorry, but can you post more about this?

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              • #52
                Absimilliard is such a prototypical, woman-hating, antisocial turbo-incel it's not even funny. Friendly reminder that Baba Yaga and, arguably, the entirety of moden Nosferatu clan, are a result of him embracing a Gaia priestess in a fit of impotent rage after she told him he's literally too fugly to look at.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Logothétēs View Post
                  Absimilliard is such a prototypical, woman-hating, antisocial turbo-incel it's not even funny. Friendly reminder that Baba Yaga and, arguably, the entirety of moden Nosferatu clan, are a result of him embracing a Gaia priestess in a fit of impotent rage after she told him he's literally too fugly to look at.
                  Not really. A long time ago they revealed Baba Yaga isn’t the Matriarch of the Clan. And Abby hates everyone, but probably hates himself the most. And he likely scored a lot before being deformed, so Incel doesn’t fit. He was a victim of Zillah so it’s more a case of abused becoming abuser in a vicious cycle taken to the extreme.


                  It is a time for great deeds!

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post

                    Not really. A long time ago they revealed Baba Yaga isn’t the Matriarch of the Clan. And Abby hates everyone, but probably hates himself the most. And he likely scored a lot before being deformed, so Incel doesn’t fit. He was a victim of Zillah so it’s more a case of abused becoming abuser in a vicious cycle taken to the extreme.

                    Absolom seems to fit best as a Narcissist. He was more than a little obsessed over his looks. He was also cruel and had a thing for breaking taboo. Look at the themes of his childer. As for the abuse, I blame Ishtar for most of it. In my personal head canon, she and Absolom were lovers prior to his embrace and it was Ishtar that put Absolom up to hunting Zillah. After his embrace she continued to use him and kept him on a short leash. I oscillate between believing that her love for him was genuine (and probably the only individual she ever truly loved) and her love was a false front to manipulate like him she did so many others. I think Ishtar kept him on a pretty short leash. I believe she and Absolom's childer were terribly abused by him. Ishtar and Absolom were probably the original toxic relationship.

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                    • #55
                      It has been the headcanon of some that Absimiliard isn’t really grotesque to look at but he obfuscates a mask of the ugliest form he can create out of self loathing. And if pierced he only has a superficial scar from Zillah. This does for better with his role as progenitor of the Guruhi.


                      It is a time for great deeds!

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Chris Wilson View Post


                        Absolom seems to fit best as a Narcissist. He was more than a little obsessed over his looks. He was also cruel and had a thing for breaking taboo. Look at the themes of his childer. As for the abuse, I blame Ishtar for most of it. In my personal head canon, she and Absolom were lovers prior to his embrace and it was Ishtar that put Absolom up to hunting Zillah. After his embrace she continued to use him and kept him on a short leash. I oscillate between believing that her love for him was genuine (and probably the only individual she ever truly loved) and her love was a false front to manipulate like him she did so many others. I think Ishtar kept him on a pretty short leash. I believe she and Absolom's childer were terribly abused by him. Ishtar and Absolom were probably the original toxic relationship.

                        Man you are making me feel bad for the guy . I take it Ishtar is the Toreador antedilluvian? But the orignal toxic relationship was Caine and Lilith maybe even Adam and Lilith.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Trollroot View Post

                          Thats not what I said. I said he was not among the more powerful Antes. Not that he was weaker than the "pretender" Antes, Tremere and Augustus Giovanni.

                          Troile is kind of in between the True Antediluvians and the Pretenders. She is also the only person to have slain an Antediluvian where there is no suspicion that it was part of the Antes plan, and it seems generally assumed that she took down the Ante in a fight. After their respective diableries, Tremere and Giovanni turtled behind their minions and new discipline, layering defences. Troile went wandering, and did not seem to worry about other members of the Fourth Generation seeing her as a potential ticket to the Third. And indeed, such ancient blood-gods as Shaitan, Ur-Shulgi, Baba Yaga, et cetera seems to have noped away quietly. All of which indicate that she was among the oldest and most terrifying members of her generation before the diablerie.

                          As for where Absimilliard being behind the other true Antediluvians in the power curve, its from Transilvania Chronicles IV, which flatly stated out of character that Absimilliard was being moved around by the more powerful Saulot, who was playing with Absimilliard and using him as a pawn. (Since then, it has come to seem that this was only a fraction of Saulot)
                          We could assume that Saulot was just that much more powerful than other Antediluvians, but nothing in his history makes it seem that he is much more powerful than the Antediluvian baseline.

                          Absimilliard on the other hand... where the other Antes try for transcendence, devouring God etc, his concerns are his looks, getting back at his ex, and killing his clan. After fifteen thousand years of this, his clans doing perfectly ok, so his ex, and his looks are ..not doing ok.



                          Shouldn't you at least have read the Nosferatu clanbook? Or the Nosferatu Libeelus Sanguinus? Its in both and probably other places.

                          As for Absimilliard being the jock of the Third Generation, he was said to be a mean bastard, mostly concerned with his looks and his physical pursuit/sport, hunting. His girlfriend was the prettiest of his peer group and he never got over being dumped, so clearly that was important to him. No story, legend orhistory I've ever red has shown him concerned with anything esoteric or philosophical. He couldn't be more of a jock if he tried.

                          Good post. I haven't read Transilvania Chronicles IV. This does make him sound weak( relatively speaking ofcourse). Honeslty it sounds like bad writing to me. No ante should be used as a pawn by another antediluvian.

                          About Troile. Hard to believe she took down Brujah in single combat. Seems very unlikely to me, she probably had help or it was a ambush killing (or was this mentioned somewhere?).

                          Also the wiki mentions she was embraced around 3000 bc (relatively young) but i am not sure how accurate that is and lets not forget its generally assumed she was under the influence of Moloch during the times of Carthage. That tells me she wasn't on the same level as the Baali Methuselah's. Maybe in raw power but she was clearly not as strong mentally, which is probably even more important.

                          All in all i would consider her to be a middle of the road antediluvian. Definitely not on the same level as the top dogs of the 3rd generation, Saulot, Sutekh, Haqim or Tzimisce.
                          Last edited by blackshade; 01-20-2020, 01:51 PM.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by lbeaumanior View Post


                            This was a good post explaining Absimilliard position among the third gen, care to analyse [Tzimisce], Zapathasura, Ennoia and [Lasombra] ?
                            I don't know as much about them. Its mostly speculation. Theres a lot more agreement in the old tales when it comes to Absimilliard.

                            Tzimisce seems to be very much into the "exotic powers and philosophy" going for a transcendence strategy in the Jyhad. This may be why he and Saulot seems to get in each others way so much. They follow a similar strategy and that may make the other look like the closest competition.

                            Zaparathsura/Dracian is obviously deeply pre-veddic. I am not sure why everyone insists on making him "Indian" he is far older than that. Many of his childer would be too. They wouldn't have more of an association with castes etc than Ur-Shulgi would with Christianity.

                            The vampire legend we know, the Eastern European one, actually originated in India and came to Eastern Europe along the silk road. Indian vampires had glowing red eyes, turned into bats and had claws. Which says "Gangrel" to me. The Gangrel and Ravnos have an age-old hatred going, but the younger kindred have not apparently been told why, theres several stories. Which makes me speculate that the Ravnos may have arrived in India fairly recently and kicked the Gangrel out. "Recently" being something like the time the Indo-European language arrived. Maybe the Gangrel were not always a wilderness clan and maybe the City Gangrel is an older line than we thought.

                            Ennoia is in an Edda, interesting enough.

                            Lasombra... I don't know, he feels like a fuckup to me. Maybe he was not embracing childer who had the same traits as himself, but the ones he desperately wished he had. Probably deep in the Nuragic civilization.

                            All of that is mostly speculation though.

                            Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
                            Sorry, but can you post more about this?
                            There are lots of stories about the two being lovers for a while. When Saulot gives Absimilliard a chance at nukes, Absimilliard immediately goes for them so he can throw them at Arikel who he thinks is in New York. Thats maybe 13 - 14 thousand years after they broke up, and the one thing we know he tried to do in the Jyhad. Nuke Arikel. Come on dude, time to get over her.

                            Originally posted by blackshade View Post

                            Good post. I haven't read Transilvania Chronicles IV. This does make him sound weak( relatively speaking ofcourse). Honeslty it sounds like bad writing to me. No ante should be used as a pawn by another antediluvian.

                            About Troile. Hard to believe she took down Brujah in single combat. Seems very unlikely to me, she probably had help or it was a ambush killing (or was this mentioned somewhere?).
                            I don't think anything ever specified it. There has generally been an assumption that they fought, I think. Also, Ravana struck down Zaparathsura, and Samiel went to a photo finish with Tzimisce, so I think there is a tiny overlap between the top end of the 4th generation and the 3rd. Anyway, the further back in time it happened, the less the Antediluvian advantage becomes. How long does it take to get a 10 in a discipline, especially when you are doing it all for the first time?

                            Originally posted by blackshade View Post
                            Also the wiki mentions she was embraced around 3000 bc (relatively young) but i am not sure how accurate that is and lets not forget its generally assumed she was under the influence of Moloch during the times of Carthage. That tells me she wasn't on the same level as the Baali Methuselah's. Maybe in raw power but she was clearly not as strong mentally, which is probably even more important.
                            The description in Clanbook Baali about how Troile would watch atrocities to see if they made her feel anything sounds a lot like she was coming off Humanity and starting to skirt wassail at the time. I would guess Moloch was trying to recruit her to the Baali and the Path of the Hive at the time. And the Roman attack cut his plans short. Troile may have wassailed during the frenzy on the battlefield when Moloch was compelled to fight beside her. Anyway, I suspect he seduced her and took advantage of her moral decline rather than overpowering her mentally. (Seems to have gone the other way there, he probably would not have entered an unwinnable fight of his own volition) It was a dangerous gambit I think but he almost pulled it off. (Maybe the risk of an Antediluvian converting to the Baali added some urgency to the Ventrues moves against Carthage)

                            I've seen the date on the wiki, but I don't see any way it could possibly be accurate. Troile is in the Book of Nod. It says her diablerie of Brujah triggered the fall of the Second City. That has to have been long before 3000 BC. Cities were not that special by then, for one. There are also stories like the one of Troile and Arikel working for a century on a piece of artwork they presented to Caine. That sounds more like the First City.

                            Originally posted by blackshade View Post
                            All in all i would consider her to be a middle of the road antediluvian. Definitely not on the same level as the top dogs of the 3rd generation, Saulot, Sutekh, Haqim or Tzimisce.
                            Interestingly, Sutekh has an embrace date: Around 5000 BC. (Although at least one observer puts it at 3000 BC). There is some suspicion that he was embraced as a 4th gen though, and later diablerized his way to the 3rd.
                            Last edited by Trollroot; 01-23-2020, 06:34 PM.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by blackshade View Post
                              Honeslty it sounds like bad writing to me. No ante should be used as a pawn by another antediluvian.
                              This is like saying Talley should never be able to beat Lucita in a fight because they're both badasses. They are, but they're also closely matched. Some fights, due to luck or circumstance, will result in Lucita winning and some will result in Talley winning. It's a coin toss.

                              Jyhad among the Antediluvians is basically the same thing. They are all closely matched master manipulators. Sometimes Saulot will manipulate Absimiliard and sometimes Absimiliard will manipulate Saulot. It's basically a coin toss who will win, all other things being equal. Given the time scale and complexity of the Jyhad, I would find it impossible to believe that no Antediluvian has ever gotten played by another Antediluvian. Each one has likely played and gotten played by the others countless times. The entire point of the Jyhad is for them to manipulate each other.

                              But just because you can do it once doesn't mean you can do it every time. In the next round, Absimiliard might get the better of Saulot.
                              Last edited by False Epiphany; 01-24-2020, 12:46 PM.


                              Blood and Bourbon, my New Orleans-based Vampire chronicle.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by False Epiphany View Post
                                Some fights, due to luck or circumstance, will result in Lucita winning and some will result in Talley winning. It's a coin toss.
                                Or.... wait for it..... wait for it.....

                                ... a roll of the dice.

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