Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

How would you stat Vasilisa?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Originally posted by False Epiphany View Post

    This is like saying Talley should never be able to beat Lucita in a fight because they're both badasses. They are, but they're also closely matched. Some fights, due to luck or circumstance, will result in Lucita winning and some will result in Talley winning. It's a coin toss.

    Jyhad among the Antediluvians is basically the same thing. They are all closely matched master manipulators. Sometimes Saulot will manipulate Absimiliard and sometimes Absimiliard will manipulate Saulot. It's basically a coin toss who will win, all other things being equal. Given the time scale and complexity of the Jyhad, I would find it impossible to believe that no Antediluvian has ever gotten played by another Antediluvian. Each one has likely played and gotten played by the others countless times. The entire point of the Jyhad is for them to manipulate each other.

    But just because you can do it once doesn't mean you can do it every time. In the next round, Absimiliard might get the better of Saulot.
    That's my point. It should be the way you wrote it and i imagine in most cases it is.

    But the comment i was responding to didnt make it sound like Saulot got the better of Absimiliard but basically made him his bitch because he is that much more powerful. So the end result would most likely be the same each time they cross paths. But like i said i havent read Transylvania Chronicles IV, so i really dont know how much more powerful Saulot was made out to be in that book.
    Last edited by blackshade; 01-24-2020, 01:36 PM.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Trollroot View Post


      I don't think anything ever specified it. There has generally been an assumption that they fought, I think. Also, Ravana struck down Zaparathsura, and Samiel went to a photo finish with Tzimisce, so I think there is a tiny overlap between the top end of the 4th generation and the 3rd. Anyway, the further back in time it happened, the less the Antediluvian advantage becomes. How long does it take to get a 10 in a discipline, especially when you are doing it all for the first time?

      The description in Clanbook Baali about how Troile would watch atrocities to see if they made her feel anything sounds a lot like she was coming off Humanity and starting to skirt wassail at the time. I would guess Moloch was trying to recruit her to the Baali and the Path of the Hive at the time. And the Roman attack cut his plans short. Troile may have wassailed during the frenzy on the battlefield when Moloch was compelled to fight beside her. Anyway, I suspect he seduced her and took advantage of her moral decline rather than overpowering her mentally. (Seems to have gone the other way there, he probably would not have entered an unwinnable fight of his own volition) It was a dangerous gambit I think but he almost pulled it off. (Maybe the risk of an Antediluvian converting to the Baali added some urgency to the Ventrues moves against Carthage)

      I've seen the date on the wiki, but I don't see any way it could possibly be accurate. Troile is in the Book of Nod. It says her diablerie of Brujah triggered the fall of the Second City. That has to have been long before 3000 BC. Cities were not that special by then, for one. There are also stories like the one of Troile and Arikel working for a century on a piece of artwork they presented to Caine. That sounds more like the First City.

      Interestingly, Sutekh has an embrace date: Around 5000 BC. (Although at least one observer puts it at 3000 BC). There is some suspicion that he was embraced as a 4th gen though, and later diablerized his way to the 3rd.
      Troile's embrace date does seems suspicious and Moloch manipulating instead of downright dominating her makes sense aswell, but still for an ante to allow her self to be used (for whatever reason) by a Methuselah (even one as powerful as Moloch) doesn't bode well for her chances in the game of Jyhad. Could you imagine Saulot or Tzimisce being used by another?

      About Sutekh. His embrace date is suspicious aswell. He is probably as old as the rest of them. I don't believe he was embraced as a fourth gen. Hell if you believe the Setites, he is the original vampire or even a god.. Which isn't as crazy as it first may sound, considering his story predates Caine and Abel.

      The Christians took a lot of inspiration from the Set and Osiris story. But besides his age, i think his true power comes from other means. There are mentions that Apep was the most powerful worm of the wyrm. Sutekh slew him and ate his heart and thus got his powers. If true, his age is irrelevant. Eating Apep puts him on the same level as the most powerful Antediluvians, if not ahead. This is the main reason i mentioned him as one of the top dogs of the third generation.
      Last edited by blackshade; 01-24-2020, 03:02 PM.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by blackshade View Post

        Troile's embrace date does seems suspicious and Moloch manipulating instead of downright dominating her makes sense aswell, but still for an ante to allow her self to be used (for whatever reason) by a Methuselah (even one as powerful as Moloch) doesn't bode well for her chances in the game of Jyhad. Could you imagine Saulot or Tzimisce being used by another?
        Not by anyone not on their level. But I could imagine Troile defeating either in combat. Thats the thing, I don't believe the Antediluvians are all closely matched master manipulators. They have different areas of competence and probably different power levels. Every other generation has quite a bit of variance even between members of similar age. Absimiiliard hasn't shown much interest in the exotic powers area and falling behind for 14 thousand years is an awfully long way behind. Also... Zaparathsura/Dracian wiped out the vast majority of his clan in three nights. Tremere and Giovanni has been wiping out the Salubri and Cappadocians with a fair amount of success. Its assumed Tzimisce could devour its whole clan if it wanted to.

        Absimilliard has had the destruction of his clan as a major objective for fourteen thousand years, and the Nosferatu are doing quite well, really. Probably more numerous than ever. Thats...not good work, Absi. Its not good at all.

        But back to Moloch and Troile, the Baali actually refuse to aid Moloch because he let another gain the advantage on him; being compelled to fight at Troiles side was such a weakness to them.

        My conjecture is that when Troile arrived in Carthage for the first time and encountered Moloch, Moloch recognized that she was not quite with it, and that her humanity was going on the rocks. And he seized the opportunity to encourage that and try to subvert an Antediluvian. (And when the Ventrue found out, they freaked. Chorazin was not that far in the past at this point) If she had not met him at such a time of moral and mental vulnerability to precisely his type of seduction it may have gone very differently.

        Originally posted by blackshade View Post
        About Sutekh. His embrace date is suspicious aswell. He is probably as old as the rest of them. I don't believe he was embraced as a fourth gen. Hell if you believe the Setites, he is the original vampire or even a god.. Which isn't as crazy as it first may sound, considering his story predates Caine and Abel.
        The problem there is that Suteks mortal life, and the years immediately after his embrace is very well attested, better the all the other Antediluvians except Tremere and Giovanni. There are a number of kindred, and even kine of a sort, still extant who knew him as a mortal or his immediate mortal family. And some of his close family is still alive too. Also, moving his embrace date much messes with the Mummy timeline.

        Thing about Set is, he was a warrior who went into the western desert, one of the most hostile areas on earth and survived there. Then he came back as a vampire with animal features and a snake theme. So far, pretty Gangrel. Now he has his own discipline which was quite similar to Protean. Except his presumably oldest children does not have Serpentis at all. They got Protean.

        Osiris, a handful of years older than Set banished him from Egypt. Set later returned and kicked everyones ass, suddenly dominating everyone in power.

        The Setite history goes something like "13th millennium BC Setites moves into Africa" "5000 BC Setites control the Nile" "3000 BC Set born"

        All of which makes a lot more sense if we assume Set was someone who did a Augustus Giovanni on the Setites. (It is his style)

        Originally posted by blackshade View Post
        The Christians took a lot of inspiration from the Set and Osiris story. But besides his age, i think his true power comes from other means. There are mentions that Apep was the most powerful worm of the wyrm. Sutekh slew him and ate his heart and thus got his powers. If true, his age is irrelevant. Eating Apep puts him on the same level as the most powerful Antediluvians, if not ahead. This is the main reason i mentioned him as one of the top dogs of the third generation.
        As a though experiment, let us assume there was a clan or group of vampires in the really old nights, call it the Clan of Faiths. And its Antediluvian was called Apep...

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Trollroot View Post

          The problem there is that Suteks mortal life, and the years immediately after his embrace is very well attested, better the all the other Antediluvians except Tremere and Giovanni. There are a number of kindred, and even kine of a sort, still extant who knew him as a mortal or his immediate mortal family. And some of his close family is still alive too. Also, moving his embrace date much messes with the Mummy timeline.

          Thing about Set is, he was a warrior who went into the western desert, one of the most hostile areas on earth and survived there. Then he came back as a vampire with animal features and a snake theme. So far, pretty Gangrel. Now he has his own discipline which was quite similar to Protean. Except his presumably oldest children does not have Serpentis at all. They got Protean.

          Osiris, a handful of years older than Set banished him from Egypt. Set later returned and kicked everyones ass, suddenly dominating everyone in power.

          The Setite history goes something like "13th millennium BC Setites moves into Africa" "5000 BC Setites control the Nile" "3000 BC Set born"

          All of which makes a lot more sense if we assume Set was someone who did a Augustus Giovanni on the Setites. (It is his style)
          Fair enough. But if he was born around 3000 bc as you believe. How do you think he would stand against the Antediluvains born around around 8000 BC? 5000 years is a lot. If his embrace date is indeed 3000 bc and you disregard the story about Apep, he woud have to be considered one of their weaker ante's ( even considering diminishing returns on age). But everything written about him makes him sound like one of the more powerful ante's. The Gehenna book (i know its no longer canon) outright mentions him as one of the more powerful Antediluvians. If i remember correctly he seemed to be leading the others in one scenario.

          The embrace date 3000 bc (or even 5000 bc) doesn't seem logical to me given the power he supposedly wielded.
          Last edited by blackshade; 01-24-2020, 06:51 PM.

          Comment


          • #65
            Adding to the contradictory published info, Apophis/Apep is also put forth as a currently extant and active deity/spirit in Midnight Circus. Now, that book is pretty far down the list of ones I'd like to quote to argue canon, but a lot of stuff about Set and Egyptian mythology in general has very different facts and interpretations depending on which game line and which individual book you look at.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by blackshade View Post

              Fair enough. But if he was born around 3000 bc as you believe. How do you think he would stand against the Antediluvains born around around 8000 BC? 5000 years is a lot. If his embrace date is indeed 3000 bc and you disregard the story about Apep, he woud have to be considered one of their weaker ante's ( even considering diminishing returns on age). But everything written about him makes him sound like one of the more powerful ante's. The Gehenna book (i know its no longer canon) outright mentions him as one of the more powerful Antediluvians. If i remember correctly he seemed to be leading the others in one scenario.

              The embrace date 3000 bc (or even 5000 bc) doesn't seem logical to me given the power he supposedly wielded.
              Well as long as we remember this is all speculation and conjecture...

              Turtling. How has Giovanni and Tremere survived so far? They have turtled behind their clan and new discipline. In Tremeres case he has made it for a millennium I think. Set does appear to have followed a similar strategy with a new discipline, a geographic area where he has claimed total dominion and a group of highly loyal 4th generation kindred concentrated there, in much closer proximity to each other than such creatures usually tolerate.

              Dodging. Back at the start of the bronze age, powers and nations did not interact across such great distances as today. The mesopotamian cities interacted mostly with each other and there was not much projection of power over long distances. It is possible that back then, you could avoid Jyhad rivals by staying far away and not opposing them directly. And keeping your plays subtle and well Obfuscated.

              Lying. There seems to be a great and confusing number of stories about Set and how powerful he is, how old he is, how he is a God and not a vampire or that he has a totally different origin from other vampires (i.e. can't be diablerized. No point in even trying. Move along nothing of interest here) Vampires are liars, who benefits from these tales?.

              Failing. There are stories that Set was slain in 33 AD, and that is why he vanished. If that is true, he would have managed to last for 3000 years, which is considerably longer than Tremere. But in a slower world.

              I personally like a history the original Antediluvians were embraced long before 8000 BC. But I also like the notions that Kindred history were not totally static between the Second City and Chorazin. That things happened in the old darkness.





              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by blackshade View Post
                Baba Yaga didn't defeat Absimiliard on her own. She had help from her friends. Given the great age difference, Vasilisa's stats should be much higher then Baba Yaga. Although i am pretty sure her (him?) being 14000 years old is a mistake from the writers. They didnt consider that being twice as old as Baba Yaga would mean she predates the antes.
                Or maybe....just maybe, The Antediluvians are older than we surmise....

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Gangrel44 View Post

                  Or maybe....just maybe, The Antediluvians are older than we surmise....

                  Well then some surmise. We already had talks of Abby encountering Mammoths and Sabertooths in his mortal days.


                  It is a time for great deeds!

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    And I don't think Abby is trying as hard as the Nosferatu think he is concerning genociding his kids. I think he hates them and every now and then a bunch get wiped out because he or his Nicktuku were in the Area and killed them all while passing by doing other things. I don't think he is trying as hard to wipe them all out, that doesn't seem to be his goal, its the clan's legends concerning his goals though. But those are just stories.

                    I do think Abby is probably one of the best Sneaks of the Antes, Saulot may be more advanced then him in a number of areas, but a lot of it could be Abi just didn't develop as apocalyptically in the Mental department. Just because he is an Ante doesn't mean his Intelligence has to be at least 8 or 9. Even if he has Intelligence 5, that would still be a genius. Also if he is cursed with unpleasantness... well a lot of his time would be occupied maybe in misery, having arthritis and open sores can be a distraction after all.


                    It is a time for great deeds!

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Personally, I think that the biggest question that Vasilisa raises is, how ha Absimilliard not won the Jyhad yet?
                      The Wiki gives him 9 other loyal Nicktuku. If they are all just half as strong as Vasilisa, they should be hunting down Antediluvians, not his own clan.

                      Not to mention the unbelievable mental Disciplines he should have access to in order to control childer this powerful. The Bond only goes so far, as the Anarch Rebellion demonstrated.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
                        Personally, I think that the biggest question that Vasilisa raises is, how ha Absimilliard not won the Jyhad yet?
                        The Wiki gives him 9 other loyal Nicktuku. If they are all just half as strong as Vasilisa, they should be hunting down Antediluvians, not his own clan.

                        Not to mention the unbelievable mental Disciplines he should have access to in order to control childer this powerful. The Bond only goes so far, as the Anarch Rebellion demonstrated.
                        Baba Yaga's stats weren't really that impressive for a Methuselah her age tbh. Probably because she came from earlier editions. Just compare her character sheet with, say, Huitzilopochtli's or Enkidu's. Doubt Vasilisa could've pulled the same stunt.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
                          Personally, I think that the biggest question that Vasilisa raises is, how ha Absimilliard not won the Jyhad yet?
                          The Wiki gives him 9 other loyal Nicktuku. If they are all just half as strong as Vasilisa, they should be hunting down Antediluvians, not his own clan.
                          Yeah, that's another reason I tend not to believe "twice her age."

                          I mean, you can rationalize it. Other Antediluvians have potent powers too, Absimiliard is better at hiding people than finding people, killing his own clan is still his foremost goal... but 9+ Nicktuku who can wipe the floor with one of the most ancient methuselahs out there feels overkill. No other Antediluvian gets a comparable number of comparably potent servants detailed.

                          Originally posted by Logothétēs View Post

                          Baba Yaga's stats weren't really that impressive for a Methuselah her age tbh. Probably because she came from earlier editions. Just compare her character sheet with, say, Huitzilopochtli's or Enkidu's. Doubt Vasilisa could've pulled the same stunt.
                          Huitzilopochtli was basically supposed to be a Nicktuku or ur-Shulgi equivalent, as I took him. Just ridiculously powerful and able to curbstomp anything short of Antediluvian.
                          Last edited by False Epiphany; 01-27-2020, 05:11 AM.


                          Blood and Bourbon, my New Orleans-based Vampire chronicle.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
                            Personally, I think that the biggest question that Vasilisa raises is, how ha Absimilliard not won the Jyhad yet?
                            The Wiki gives him 9 other loyal Nicktuku. If they are all just half as strong as Vasilisa, they should be hunting down Antediluvians, not his own clan.

                            Not to mention the unbelievable mental Disciplines he should have access to in order to control childer this powerful. The Bond only goes so far, as the Anarch Rebellion demonstrated.

                            Honestly That actually was my first take ages past... Toss in he grows his own Kaiju and ooompfff! And it took till 5th ed for my take on man Setites have gathered the greatest amount of favors to be expressed.


                            It is a time for great deeds!

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Logothétēs View Post

                              Baba Yaga's stats weren't really that impressive for a Methuselah her age tbh. Probably because she came from earlier editions. Just compare her character sheet with, say, Huitzilopochtli's or Enkidu's. Doubt Vasilisa could've pulled the same stunt.
                              I think you miss the fact that most of her power revolves around her sorcery, which they only expressed as Thaumaturgy 9... There is more to it than that, considering her first recorded acts post embrace was summoning a Talon of the Wyrm and super badass Dragon Gang...

                              Honestly I wager her sorcery was beefier then Ur-Shulgis, and likely could best be expressed as a masterful cultivation of Kraina. She's impressive on the physical side of things, but not for Methuselah who specialize such things.

                              It was a stupid story that had interesting ideas like the Salt Queen and the Bogtyr picture. But I don't see Shaitan, that was Huitzilpochtli right?, and Ur-Shulgi giving her Wedges. And remember Huitzilpochtli got his Arse kicked by the Sabbat, Baba Yaga kicked their asses while also being a foe that rallied the Garou of Russia against her and taking the brunt of their assault head on with her forces... till it got to much for her. But the Vas story was bad...


                              It is a time for great deeds!

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                                Honestly I wager her sorcery was beefier then Ur-Shulgis, and likely could best be expressed as a masterful cultivation of Kraina. She's impressive on the physical side of things, but not for Methuselah who specialize such things.
                                Well, she is impressive also on that side.


                                Animalism 7, Auspex 7, Celerity 3, Dominate 8, Fortitude 8, Obfuscate 7, Potence 7, Presence 8,Thaumaturgy 9, Protean 3

                                67 dot of disciplines. 9 dots more than Enkidu. 14 more than Mahatma, 8 more than Menele.

                                She is the fourth highest statted vampire ever (the first 3 are Huxtli, Japhet and Kemintiri).

                                (That said, Baba was nevertheless understatted, just like Mithras).

                                In any case, for sure Baba's magic has been more impressive than Ur-Shulgi. Actually, Baba's feats of magic are among the most impressive ever, even taking in account other mystical feats of other game lines.
                                She summoned spirits of untold power with ease, including Koschey, a Talon of the Wyrm, which is not a "simple" incarna.
                                And the Shadow Curtain was one of the most impressive feat of magic ever accomplished, true Archmage level.
                                We are not talking about breaking a curse, casting one, or causing the erruption of a volcano. We are talking of isolating the biggest country on heart, in the Umbra and in the material world alike.


                                It was a stupid story that had interesting ideas like the Salt Queen and the Bogtyr picture. But I don't see Shaitan, that was Huitzilpochtli right?, and Ur-Shulgi giving her Wedges. And remember Huitzilpochtli got his Arse kicked by the Sabbat, Baba Yaga kicked their asses while also being a foe that rallied the Garou of Russia against her and taking the brunt of their assault head on with her forces... till it got to much for her. But the Vas story was bad...
                                Well Huitzilpochtlii was killed by an army of conquistadored and by lack of blood, since his herd was killed and poisoned by the western. The Black Hand (not the Sabbat) gave the final strike (and remember that we do not know who were the Black Hand agents who were sent. The hand has members like Izhim, Aajav, Djuha, Ezeikel , Soldat and so on. Do not figure that Huxtli fought a bunch of shovelhead).



                                Mexico City By NIght

                                Huitzilpochtli was still immense, but substantially weakened from hunger. His herd was starving or dying of smallpox, thinning the potency of their vitae.
                                It didn't take Cortés long to force Tenochtitlàn into submission. In the following week, the Spaniards and their allies ransacked the city, slaughering two thirds of its 200.000 inhabitants. Likewise, the pack used ghouls to set Huitzilpochtli temple ablaze during the day; Tlaloc, now reconnected with fresh water supplies after Cortés reopened several aqueducts, summoned a rain shower to douse the blaze and flood the city, thus allowing him to escape into the lake, where he vanisehd. The fire hurt Huitzilpochtli enough to send him into torpor, however, leaving the leviathan Cainite at the mercy of the Nigrum Tirste. The pack claims it tooke them four whole nights just to stake and diablerize the so called hmmingbird god. Despite this, they never uncovered his nature
                                Last edited by Undead rabbit; 01-29-2020, 07:39 AM.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X