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Vampire 5th Edition Dark Ages (?) V5 Discussion

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
    I would be interested in something that rather than have a single, set date and timeline, it offered a sliding scale of opportunity. Everything from the Fall of Rome (395) to the Battle of Hastings (1066) to the crowning of Charlemagne as Emperor of the Romans (800) to the Mongol invasions (mid 13th century) and so. Have the ability to play in the place, and at the time, where the PCs can do the most damage.
    That's not terribly practical, though, as quite a bit changes over the period of a thousand years. Victorian Age Vampire struggled with coherency when dealing with a few decades of social change (though, to be fair, the writers could never completely decide whether they were talking about 1750 or 1950).

    Actually, the mention of Victorian Age Vampire reminds me of a notable problem, which is that the authors of most books set in the World of Darkness since the year 2000 or so don't really have very much to say. Victorian Age Vampire was terrible (and its supplements worse), because the books had no greater plan than someone at White Wolf thinking that the period might be quite popular, and the authors had no ambitions beyond churning out the requisite number of words. Is there anything a new edition of Vampire: the Dark Ages could say? Probably, though I don't have much faith in the team behind V5 to do so.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by James_Willoughby View Post

      That's not terribly practical, though, as quite a bit changes over the period of a thousand years. Victorian Age Vampire struggled with coherency when dealing with a few decades of social change (though, to be fair, the writers could never completely decide whether they were talking about 1750 or 1950).

      Actually, the mention of Victorian Age Vampire reminds me of a notable problem, which is that the authors of most books set in the World of Darkness since the year 2000 or so don't really have very much to say. Victorian Age Vampire was terrible (and its supplements worse), because the books had no greater plan than someone at White Wolf thinking that the period might be quite popular, and the authors had no ambitions beyond churning out the requisite number of words. Is there anything a new edition of Vampire: the Dark Ages could say? Probably, though I don't have much faith in the team behind V5 to do so.
      The social and political changes post-Black Death (Cainite and mortal) would make that era a good choice for a reboot. I've been working on a sourcebook for that era for the Fief (I went with the White Wolf nomenclature) of Winchester for several years

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      • #18
        Originally posted by James_Willoughby View Post

        That's not terribly practical, though, as quite a bit changes over the period of a thousand years.
        A single book of 2000+ pages would not be viable. But something like the UA series of WotC/D&D would handle it, with different posts and articles tackling different locations and times. Or, as I mentioned above, a CoD approach, with one book section handling an era and multiple books appearing over the course of time.

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        • #19
          I would be glad with Victorian age coming back. About Dark Ages, the first edition was settled in 1197, the second in 1230 and the last one in 1250. But that was not an impediment for supplements in other years, as it was Iberia by night (1212), Sea wolves or the Transilvania and Giovanni chronicles. In my opinion, the publishers are not prepared to expand Vampire in this direction yet. They have not published some of the more awaited books for V5 and the setting is not completely consolidated, we even do not have all the clans. But, as a idea, I would prefer a IX century setting than a another one in the XIII century. They could follow the expansion of the islam, the pillages of the vikings, the creation of the Sacro Roman Empire and explore cities more unknown.
          Last edited by Justycar; 01-13-2020, 07:19 PM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
            I would be interested in something that rather than have a single, set date and timeline, it offered a sliding scale of opportunity. Everything from the Fall of Rome (395) to the Battle of Hastings (1066) to the crowning of Charlemagne as Emperor of the Romans (800) to the Mongol invasions (mid 13th century) and so. Have the ability to play in the place, and at the time, where the PCs can do the most damage.
            Seems like a Chronicles of Darkness Dark Era and their other supplements. Gotta say, it would be cool, although I don't see they doing that in the Old World of Darkness. But if to choose one I would go to Charlemagne (the mirroring or parallel of his rise would be a great starting chronicle for it). But things like Black Death or just before Renaissance would good too. I think Transylvania and Giovanni Chronicles are the only ones that explores other times besides Victorian and Dark Ages.

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            • #21
              Well, as Cult of the Blood Gods reminds us, Caine was supposed to come back in 1239 so that might be a possible venue. Like it's Gehenna time (again, 3rd/4th time hahaha), or at least something like religious wars everywhere, Inquisition going "what's all the ruckus" and Mongols conquering by the East.
              But it would not be my predilection nor best bet. And yes I think a Dark Ages would't be announced in at least 2 years from now.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Banu_Saulot View Post
                Seems like a Chronicles of Darkness Dark Era and their other supplements. Gotta say, it would be cool, although I don't see they doing that in the Old World of Darkness. But if to choose one I would go to Charlemagne (the mirroring or parallel of his rise would be a great starting chronicle for it). But things like Black Death or just before Renaissance would good too. I think Transylvania and Giovanni Chronicles are the only ones that explores other times besides Victorian and Dark Ages.
                In L´heresie cathare there are many references to the Pleroma, the second messiah and the Golconda as viewed by the gnoctics Salubri. Probably, the albigensian crusade could be considered part of the cyclical Gehenna.

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                • #23
                  Let’s avoid storyography for a moment and let’s focus on the in game terms used to describe these periods. The era between the fall of the western roman empire and the 4th crusade (the end of Michael’s “Dream”) was called “the long night”. The period that begun after that was “the war of princes”, which basically ended when the “burning times” (and the inquisition) went into full swing and with them the anarch revolt. These periods have all been done by WW. They may be fun to revisit But they are nothing new and therefore their appeal is limited. Personally I think it would be interesting to be given a game about The Rome of Augustus, the birth of the empire and the highest point of Venture power. The setting is still familiar enough and at the same time allows for a different take on clans in the Empire and beyond.

                  I realize Requiem for Rome exists, But That’s a completely different game and there’s not much material about it (and requiem’s nature makes everything in the book highly optional anyway), so the game line would not impact on a new masquerade historical game line

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                  • #24
                    Haquim
                    I would love Chronicle for the Roman Empire, as you say it's wide open territory for VTM and would be happy to buy a series of books to use for ideas. I don't have a lot of faith in V5 though. If it's not historically accurate or it's filled with modern day sensibilities what's the point? Watching the reaction to complaints about stuff like neonazi Brujah I doubt they have the balls. We'd probably end up with a much kinder and gentler Rome where women co rule and slavery is outlawed.

                    Probably better to hope for someone to do a lot of research and make a series in the Storytellers Vault for DAV20.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Vamps Like Us View Post
                      Haquim
                      I would love Chronicle for the Roman Empire, as you say it's wide open territory for VTM and would be happy to buy a series of books to use for ideas. I don't have a lot of faith in V5 though. If it's not historically accurate or it's filled with modern day sensibilities what's the point? Watching the reaction to complaints about stuff like neonazi Brujah I doubt they have the balls. We'd probably end up with a much kinder and gentler Rome where women co rule and slavery is outlawed.

                      Probably better to hope for someone to do a lot of research and make a series in the Storytellers Vault for DAV20.
                      Well, WW has never been terribly historically accurate (but that’s besides the point to a certain extent, it’s still a work of fiction after all). Since V5 is a contemporary setting I also don’t think it fair to characterize it as historically inaccurate. Then of course, slavery was widespread during the late empire and it’s offende cited as one of the reasons for it’s eventual economic failure. In the time of Augustus slavery existed but wasn’t prevalent yet. And as for women in roman society it may surprise you but roman women held more power than for example greek ones (inside their homes at least). As a general sentiment I agree with the idea that such themes should be present in the setting and certainly not watered down to appeal to modern ideology of any kind.

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                      • #26
                        Going before the High middle Age would be problematic in terms of balance. Too many 4th and 5th gen around. Before the fall of the Roman Empire 5th and 6th were the most common generations, even more with the rules of V5 that could be a problem.

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                        • #27
                          My main interest wouldn't be in balance especially because the game as it is is balanced (for me at least), throwing around bigger and badder people is just a matter of "well, now you either play smart or play dead". Yes it constricts the game, and that is why in meta reasoning (and other reasons of course) they sent elders far away, and left the fragile individuals to make story, but at the same time there always will be some Older and Badder vampire around in a city most of the time. What would happen (if V5 was mostly the same for Dark Ages) is that players would begin pretty much more powerful, there would be much more Generation (and Blood Potency) diversity, and there would be more dice rolling and HUNGRY vampires killing people to satisfy their lowest hunger. But hey, vampires are beasts and monsters. Maybe some new form of touchstone could be made, one of religious ideal that if broken take your Humanity automatically since morality wasn't as rationally and humanly postulated as now, it was a godly concept, something bigger and independent than the human kind.
                          Which is something Dark Ages lacked, hardly anybody played medieval characters, we always play way too much anachronistic characters in this game (and that's not a terrible issue, you can't force people to be actors or sociological historians) and I never saw a character that didn't seem atheist in a medieval setting, so making that part of the Belief mechanics would be interesting, Touchstones or not.

                          But one thing I would be really interested is the presentation. Since they moved to a "naturalist simulacrum representation" art style (at least I would call that) with contemporary medias, this means any Dark Ages material wouldn't use photos, modern art styles or techniques. They would simulate a medieval, renaissance or at max victorian art style in the books, at least supposedly. And with V5s production value it would be awesome. But that remains in the realm of ideas until any whiff of a Dark Ages V5 is touched upon by official authorities of the matter.

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                          • #28
                            Well the elders/Methuselahs would still be more powerful (just have different ways to develop that power) - I suppose that depends on how they handle it (maybe not even bothering to give dots beyond a certain generation. 7th maybe, but 6th-4th could be effectively un-statted. I could just see trying to do that causing more trouble than its worth, anyhow.

                            This thread maks me think of the Bernard Cornwell take on Arthurian Legends (a blend of dark ages medievel and the tail end of the Roman empire) I could see something like that working for DAV.

                            Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post

                            How so? Weather control was one of Dracula's original powers. Numerous vampires are shown to have the ability to make all the candles in the room light up, and cause doors to open and close. Movies as recent as "Hotel Transylvania" and as old as "Fright Night II" and "Vampire in Brooklyn" have examples of vampires performing what is essentially witchcraft. "Mockingbird Lane" also had a version of Dracula who also knew witchcraft.

                            About the only thing unvampiric about them is the Hermetic trappings. Vampires tend to have a Satanic Witchcraft vibe to their magic.

                            Hell Dracula by Bram Stoker had mention of the Scholomance:

                            Originally posted by Dracula
                            ​The Draculas were, says Arminius, a great and noble race, though now and again were scions who were held by their coevals to have had dealings with the Evil One. They learned his secrets in the Scholomance, amongst the mountains over Lake Hermanstadt, where the devil claims the tenth scholar as his due. In the records are such words as ‘stregoica’ witch, ‘ordog’ and ‘pokol’ Satan and hell, and in one manuscript this very Dracula is spoken of as ‘wampyr,’which we all understand too well.
                            The line between disciplines and many forms of hedge magic was never that strict in my thinking (its like saying whether thin blood/caitiff inceptorship is any different from Thaumaturgy's Rego Magica (the one that allows new paths/rituals to be created IIRC).
                            Last edited by Mister_Dunpeal; 01-14-2020, 11:16 PM.

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                            • #29
                              Either way, Koldunic (if it doesn't turn into Blood Sorcery powers and rituals) would probably be more appropriate to nature magic than BoSo. And I still don't know if they will make the different Paths of Blood Sorcery at some point, turn them all in rituals, or just make different Disciplines for them. But I'm happy with everything BoSo is at the moment, a little handful of rituals and cool powers, and thats that. Disciplines and Blood powers are not what I would be most interested in a new Dark Ages, more so the setting itself and its characters. Besides, with the new Background, Loresheets and Merits system, having a demesne and a castle seem much more manageable and cool.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
                                Going before the High middle Age would be problematic in terms of balance. Too many 4th and 5th gen around. Before the fall of the Roman Empire 5th and 6th were the most common generations, even more with the rules of V5 that could be a problem.
                                I think having a setting with lots of Methusealhs running around and dealing with each other “in the open” would be a nice change of pace in comparison with the current modern setting. Expanding elder rules would not be a problem while at the same time it could be a good way to introduce a variation on the morality system of V5.

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