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Is the Methuselah Lazarus the same as the Biblical Lazarus?

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  • #61
    I actually knew that lol. One of my friends told me. He’s Orthodox Jewish and considered becoming a rabbi before he found out he’d have to give up gaming (and his non-Jewish girlfriend) to do it.


    “No one holds command over me. No man, no god, no Prince. Call your damn Hunt. We shall see who I drag screaming down to hell with me.” The last Ahrimane says this when Mithras calls a Blood Hunt against her.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Penelope View Post
      I actually knew that lol. One of my friends told me. He’s Orthodox Jewish and considered becoming a rabbi before he found out he’d have to give up gaming (and his non-Jewish girlfriend) to do it.
      Well, speaking of all around nonsense, let's explore a bit the amazing Byzar/Mahatma correlation - that makes little to no sense whatsoever, since a big chunk of Mahatma's backstory is about wandering the world after being exiled from Byzantium and throwing all kinds of pawns, mortal kindred & other at the Triad, while Byzar was put in torpor by Alexia before the Triad's arrival, or the fact that, while he does have Fortitude & Necromancy, he has higher levels in Obeah, Obfuscate and Presence, & Dominate on par with Necromancy.

      Also, there's a little problem with the idea of Mahatma's sire as Cappadocius....

      As you can guess, i'm strongly in favor of them as separate indviduals - in fact if not for the lack of Obtenebration i would be sorely tempted to consider Mahatma as Ectoris, the betrayed sire of Magnus, leader of the scion family of Lasombra of the same name (after some diablerie on the side in the centuries between his defeat and meeting Saulot).
      Last edited by Baaldam; 09-15-2020, 11:20 AM.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Baaldam View Post

        Well, speaking of all around nonsense, let's explore a bit the amazing Byzar/Mahatma correlation - that makes little to no sense whatsoever, since a big chunk of Mahatma's backstory is about wandering the world after being exiled from Byzantium and throwing all kinds of pawns, mortal kindred & other at the Triad, while Byzar was put in torpor by Alexia before the Triad's arrival, or the fact that, while he does have Fortitude & Necromancy, he has higher levels in Obeah, Obfuscate and Presence, & Dominate on par with Necromancy.

        Also, there's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laodice_(Greek_myth)"]a little problem[/URL] with the idea of Mahatma's sire as Cappadocius....

        As you can guess, i'm strongly in favor of them as separate indviduals - in fact if not for the lack of Obtenebration i would be sorely tempted to consider Mahatma as Ectoris, the betrayed sire of Magnus, leader of the scion family of Lasombra of the same name (after some diablerie on the side in the centuries between his defeat and meeting Saulot).
        Sorry. None of this means anything to me cause idk who Mahatma is (I actually have heard of Byzar, the Cappadocian founder of Byzantium and a member of the Capuchin Conspiracy along with Japheth and Lazarus).


        “No one holds command over me. No man, no god, no Prince. Call your damn Hunt. We shall see who I drag screaming down to hell with me.” The last Ahrimane says this when Mithras calls a Blood Hunt against her.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Penelope View Post

          Sorry. None of this means anything to me cause idk who Mahatma is (I actually have heard of Byzar, the Cappadocian founder of Byzantium and a member of the Capuchin Conspiracy along with Japheth and Lazarus).

          Mahatma is the Inconnu Monitor of Istambul, an NPC quoted a number of times in clan/bloodline descriptions of the early books, and finally got a full write-up in 3rd ed, on Children of Night - and because it was a methuselah in the city once called Constantinople, even before the Triad, people started to mass conflate it with Byzar to a surreal degree, even thought any attentive reading of the basics on each of them should show that makes little to no sense whatsoever.


          The writers themselves contribute to this in V20, might be said:

          Originally posted by V20: The Black Hand: A Guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra, p. 45
          Byzar, otherwise known as Tiberius, Mahatma, or Sargonnezhad, is the final member of the cult and its architect. He holds a title within the Inconnu along with a host of other organizations and Sects. His loyalties, much like those of his fellow cultists, are purely to the agenda of the Capuchin.
          At least a good thing is that "Mahatma" is pretty much a religious title, meaning a number of individuals, kindred or not, may adopt and use it, even at the same time, making ignoring the association - and some writers' fetish for methuselahs that conflate multiple canon NPCs (Jalan-Aajav, Qarakh, Karsh, anyone...) - simple enough.

          The Inconnu citation is trickier, but then it's not said what title or that he holds it under the identity of Mahatma.
          Last edited by Baaldam; 09-15-2020, 07:58 PM.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Baaldam View Post


            Mahatma is the Inconnu Monitor of Istambul, an NPC quoted a number of times in clan/bloodline descriptions of the early books, and finally got a full write-up in 3rd ed, on Children of Night - and because it was a methuselah in the city once called Constantinople, even before the Triad, people started to mass conflate it with Byzar https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Mahatma"]to a surreal degree[/URL], even thought any attentive reading of the basics on each of them should show that makes little to no sense whatsoever.


            The writers themselves contribute to this in V20, might be said:



            At least a good thing is that "Mahatma" is pretty much a religious title, meaning a number of individuals, kindred or not, may adopt and use it, even at the same time, making ignoring the association - and some writers' fetish for methuselahs that conflate multiple canon NPCs (Jalan-Aajav, Qarakh, Karsh, anyone...) - simple enough.

            The Inconnu citation is trickier, but then it's not said what title or that he holds it under the identity of Mahatma.
            Thanks. That clears things up.


            “No one holds command over me. No man, no god, no Prince. Call your damn Hunt. We shall see who I drag screaming down to hell with me.” The last Ahrimane says this when Mithras calls a Blood Hunt against her.

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            • #66
              Good to be of help, anyway sorry for the rant, it's just that "Byzar as Mahatma" is one of those "writer mashing up unrelated - and sometimes outright clashing - NPCs into some bland, vague snowflake" little things that really bug me, much like the Qarakh/Jalan-Aajav/Karsh fusion before it in 3rd ed...

              The Capuchin is a funny case, in that it is just a title/label and nothing stops the ST of putting whoever or whatever it wants behind it instead of Lazarus, what the Guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra very much toys with by having Lazarus, Japheth and Byzar taking turns at the role.
              Last edited by Baaldam; 09-15-2020, 09:57 PM.

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              • #67
                Okay. I actually knew about the Karsh/Jalan-Aajav thing. I never heard of Qarakh.


                “No one holds command over me. No man, no god, no Prince. Call your damn Hunt. We shall see who I drag screaming down to hell with me.” The last Ahrimane says this when Mithras calls a Blood Hunt against her.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Penelope View Post
                  Okay. I actually knew about the Karsh/Jalan-Aajav thing. I never heard of Qarakh.
                  This guy. That i have something of a long-standing love-hate relationship with because, on one side, the writers try to sell us the idea he and Jalan-Aajav are one and the same, even though they have almost nothing in common - whoever wrote they have similar temperaments either didn't read Children of Inquisition or was on drugs at the time, Qarakh has more in common with Worf than the Seraph - except for being embraced as Gangrel and serving in the armies of Gengis Khan (and considering how huge those armies were, for multiple individuals to have been embraced during his campaigns, that lasted between years and decades, would be far from improbable, so pretty flimsy commonality at that).

                  That said, Qarakh is a pretty solid DAV NPC that can stand quite well on its own and has no need whatsoever of hastily sketched out connections to either Jalan-Aajav or Karsh to shine. So, yeah, guess i have a messy relation with the character, or at least some theories about him.
                  Last edited by Baaldam; 09-15-2020, 11:06 PM.

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                  • #69
                    I remember this guy! From the Dark Ages clan novels. I looked through them one time.

                    He tried to found his own separate Cainite nation in the forests of Lithuania. Right?


                    “No one holds command over me. No man, no god, no Prince. Call your damn Hunt. We shall see who I drag screaming down to hell with me.” The last Ahrimane says this when Mithras calls a Blood Hunt against her.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Penelope View Post
                      I remember this guy! From the Dark Ages clan novels. I looked through them one time.

                      He tried to found his own separate Cainite nation in the forests of Lithuania. Right?
                      Livonia i think, though i must admit i know him more from bits & pieces than reading the novels themselves.

                      Incidentally, i must admit to having real problems seeing their antagonist in the novel, the Ventrue Alexander, as a honest-to-god methuselah.

                      His backstory and temperament reek of petty, upitty & vain elder too much in my eyes to swallow that (not to mention an actual Ventrue methuselah might turn the minds of a whole kindred court into mulch instead of accepting defeat). Tend to imagine him as 5th-6th gen and nearing the 1000 years of active existence ballpark but not quite there yet.
                      Last edited by Baaldam; 09-16-2020, 10:01 AM.

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                      • #71
                        That makes sense. Alexander could’ve been Embraced in Greece during the later days of the Roman Empire.


                        “No one holds command over me. No man, no god, no Prince. Call your damn Hunt. We shall see who I drag screaming down to hell with me.” The last Ahrimane says this when Mithras calls a Blood Hunt against her.

                        Comment

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